Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[respawn2]

I can also go and get one of those BTC Debit Cards, and make as many off-chain transactions as the VISA network could handle. Without LN-Operator. No fuss, no muss.

Can You understand now ?

I agree with you. Cards works fine. I'm explaining you how bitcoin will do same better.

Those BTC Debit cards are as much Bitcoin as LN. More so. Without the bother of LN, SegWit, and all these scaling wars.

Just go and get a BTC-backed Debit Card, easy peasy, you're done

Can You understand now ?

There's really no need to reinvent gift cards or prepaid credit cards. They're already invented, and work great no matter what currency you denominate them in Numbers are numbers.

But if you want to, we can start a prepaid BTC debit card company called Lightning. You got the looks, I got the ideas. Let's make a whole lot of money!

[Odalv]

I can also go and get one of those BTC Debit Cards, and make as many off-chain transactions as the VISA network could handle. Without LN-Operator. No fuss, no muss.

Can You understand now ?

I agree with you. Cards works fine. I'm explaining you how bitcoin will do same better.

Those BTC Debit cards are as much Bitcoin as LN. More so. Without the bother of LN, SegWit, and all these scaling wars.

Just go and get a BTC-backed Debit Card, easy peasy, you're done

Can You understand now ?

BTC Debit card company can go belly up. You will never see your bitcoins. Differnce is with LN channel. You will get money back. 100% guarantine

[respawn2]

I can also go and get one of those BTC Debit Cards, and make as many off-chain transactions as the VISA network could handle. Without LN-Operator. No fuss, no muss.

Can You understand now ?

I agree with you. Cards works fine. I'm explaining you how bitcoin will do same better.

Those BTC Debit cards are as much Bitcoin as LN. More so. Without the bother of LN, SegWit, and all these scaling wars.

Just go and get a BTC-backed Debit Card, easy peasy, you're done

Can You understand now ?

BTC Debit card company can go belly up. You will never see your bitcoins. Differnce is with LN channel. You will get money back. 100% guarantine

But nothing could possibly go wrong with "LN-Operator," the one that's PayPal and I send my paychecks to every month? because ... what does the "LN-Operator" do, exactly? I want the nuts and bolts, so I know if we're on the same page.
Who, exactly, will I get my money back from? Walk me through this, I just sent my paycheck to PayPal "LN-Operator," and they went belly up.
What do I do?
Who returns my Bitcoin, the one that's distributed across millions of payment channels because "1,000,000 merchants"?

[Odalv]

BTC Debit card company can go belly up. You will never see your bitcoins. Differnce is with LN channel. You will get money back. 100% guarantine

But nothing could possibly go wrong with "LN-Operator," the one that's PayPal and I send my paychecks to every month?

Exactlly. That is why I am buying BTC.

Only I have 100% control. There is no government that can confiscate my Bitcoin. There is no government that can devaluate my savings in Bitcoin. That is why I do not need bank and their "interest".

[respawn2]

Exactlly. That is why I am buying BTC.

This is not about BTC vs. USD. This is about Lightning Network, and why it's not a scaling solution for Bitcoin.
Not everything is us vs. them.

[Odalv]

Exactlly. That is why I am buying BTC.

This is not about BTC vs. USD. This is about Lightning Network, and why it's not a scaling solution for Bitcoin.
Not everything is us vs. them.

LN is solution to many problems(not for everything. SC are much better).
We do not need bigger hammer, :-) we can do it smarter. (so LN is THE SOLUTION)


Strong controls weak.
Smart controls strong.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

good job buying as the sky was falling.

Look at you?  seeming to not be able to resist getting in a kind of non-substantive ad hominem attack.  You don't even explain what was wrong with my approach.  Are you saying (in retrospect monday morning quarterbacking) that there was something fundamentally wrong with my approach?  Do you know enough about my approach?   I don't really want to get caught up on this, except to suggest that you really don't have anything here, except some desire to get in a bit of a digg, for some reason?

you read sarcasm when there was none.

O.k.... Maybe my bad? 

your approach which seems to be focused around the idea that you simply cannot predict price movements, there for you dont try, you simply let the price movements dictate your actions based on your     avg price / % in / desired % in
Is the best possible approach as an investor.

There is some truth in how you are describing my investment approach, but it is also a bit inaccurate, over simplified and seemingly unnecessarily judgmental as well.


I have no problem with adapting my investment style to the extent that I determine is necessary to my needs and situation, and surely I have learned a variety of techniques over the past years. 

In any event, my style is tailored to my own specific situation and my learning curve at the moment (what I know or believe at the moment), so anyone who tries to summarize my trading style in a few lines is likely going to get it wrong because it is also dependent on my view of risk and my other investments and my sense of the news, but yeah it has some consistent components, and even though I frequently praise my own investment style and attempt to share it, I doubt that I am really attempting to be dogmatic about my style even though I could give a ratt's ass if other guys follow it or reject it, but I still don't mind brainstorming about possible better approaches for my circumstances.

In any event, I am not trying to sell my approach on anyone or to say it is objectively "the best" for anyone, or even myself..... but I do attempt to tailor my approach to myself, so subjectively, i am attempting to play with an approach that works for my evolving situation, so for example, if I learn something different, I will adapt to the extent that I recognize that learning and believe that employing changes because of that learning is good for me at that time.

There is some truth that I am not attempting to predict, especially short term BTC price movements, but my BTC investment remains mostly stacked for long term upward BTC price movements.   Whether it is "the best" or not does not really matter too much to me.  For example, if I feel really good and secure in my investment, I may only make 6%, but then I may feel more comfortable with that secure 6% than if I were putting too much of my holdings at risk with the potential of making 20%, even if the 20% has a present expected value that is greater than the 6% that I am getting....

Anyhow, these kinds of considerations can evolve over time depending on the extent to which portions of my various portfolios are in the red or green and how my views may adapt over time. 

By the way, I think that you personally have a bit of a difficulty too with my approach of buying on the way down and selling on the way up because sometimes you are suggesting to do the opposite and to pre-empt, and that just is not my style  even though a lot of folks engage in attempts to preemptively strike, and it does not matter to me if they are more profitable than me in that approach, and I don't even really care if they do that approach, I am going to stick with my approach because I think that my approach is better for me - even though there may be some ocassion, here or there, that I may decide to attempt to preemptively strike with a portion of my holdings (but that would be the exceptional circumstance rather than my regular practice).

[Hyperjacked]

Must admit...this thread is a has been IMO

No good debates anymore just jay and the cronies talking meaningless trash

True, he mostly communicates (that's on him) w/ the known devil/troll and their various sox. I can't believe he brings himself down to their level in such a big way. Either way, he's ignored until further review. Hang out with the tramp and get the same treatment. And you're right, this place is a joke when the sox are allowed to go bulls on parade w/o repurcussion. Step up Adam. Don't let a dipshit/burnout run this place.

tru dat chef! Time for me 2 ignore jay...

Bye Jay...

[respawn2]

LN is solution to many problems(not for everything. SC are much better).

I know several folks whose problems would be solved.

We do not need bigger hammer, :-) we can do it smarter. (so LN is THE SOLUTION)

We may not need a bigger hammer, but letting a bunch of clever kids glue some wings onto the one we got won't do it either. (so LN is THE WINGS ON OUR HAMMER)
I can come up with silly sounding slogans too. (other than the begging "LN is the solution in need of a problem":p)

Strong controls weak.
Smart controls strong.

But you can't fix stupid? Or is it paper covers rock?

[adamstgBit]

I think that you personally have a bit of a difficulty too with my approach of buying on the way down and selling on the way up because sometimes you are suggesting to do the opposite and to pre-empt, and that just is not my style  even though a lot of folks engage in attempts to preemptively strike.

I invented buy on the way down and sell on the way up.
and for the most part this is exactly what i have done too.
by adding a health dose of speculation, i've tried to perfect this technique and only start buying / selling toward the end of a trend.

a few months ago I fucked up and SOLD a rather large chunk of my stash, preemptively pricing in the seemingly high possibility of a continuous hardfork. what a big fat mistake that turned out to be... oh well... anyway, my current speculation suggests the bull trend will continue for at least 1 more year ( just waiting for LN to be released  ). As far as i'm concerned devs could keep working on this goal for 3 years, thats FINE BY ME! 

[adamstgBit]

look at that relatively low volume high movement up hourly candle....
buy signals dont get much more clear than that.

[adamstgBit]

[marcus_of_augustus]

it's heading to $888, try not to get in the way too much.

P.S ... 2 pages of Lightning network FUD, what happened the bullyjoeallen sock got neutered?

[JayJuanGee]

I think that you personally have a bit of a difficulty too with my approach of buying on the way down and selling on the way up because sometimes you are suggesting to do the opposite and to pre-empt, and that just is not my style  even though a lot of folks engage in attempts to preemptively strike.

I invented buy on the way down and sell on the way up.

I'll take this as a form of humor.


Many intelligent investment circles (or maybe referred to as smart money... just kidding)... refer to this methodology, and warren buffet is known to preach such a technique, including his famous statement about buying when there is "blood in the streets."

and for the most part this is exactly what i have done too.
by adding a health dose of speculation, i've tried to perfect this technique and only start buying / selling toward the end of a trend.

Our overall approach may not be too different, even though our tweaking by learning may end up being applied a little bit differently based on our reading of the market.  Of course we are not going to want to buy a whole bunch if we are fairly certain that the price is going to continue to go down in the short term, nor are we going to want to sell a bunch if we are fairly certain that the price is going to go up in the short term.  Yet, we also may not want to miss some smaller swings, either... yet these are kind of judgement calls.  For example, if the price appears to be moving up quickly and seems to be on a 10% upwards trajectory, I still would likely to sell smaller amounts every 2% or so and then maybe bigger chucks when it reaches close to a 10% adjustment.  Trying to play a little bit of both, and each of us is going to come to different conclusions regarding how to approach these kinds of movements, yet I personally am not competing with anyone to make more profits, I am just trying to feel comfortable with myself, even if I leave a bit on the table, here and there, which actually happens from time to time (actually regularly).

a few months ago I fucked up and SOLD a rather large chunk of my stash, preemptively pricing in the seemingly high possibility of a continuous hardfork. what a big fat mistake that turned out to be... oh well...

I remember that sale of yours to be around $420, and yes, that is an example of a preemptive strike, and I find nothing really wrong with making those kinds of preemptive strike decisions, if that makes you feel better under whatever is the then current market conditions that you perceive.

anyway, my current speculation suggests the bull trend will continue for at least 1 more year ( just waiting for LN to be released  ).

I think that I am a lot more comfortable with an ongoing analysis of the situation, and trying to predict a year in bitcoinlandia is nearly impossible because we really do not know what cards various actors have up their sleeves, if any.

Take for example the most recent price splurge above $500.  Each of us who are watching BTC prices and how things play out kind of had our theories regarding whether prices would go above $500 and how it could possibly play out.  For me, it has kind of played out how I was thinking, but at the same time, it is quite a bit different with how I was thinking as well, so I have to adjust my thinking regarding how it actually played out versus what I had previously been thinking.

Previously, I thought that once BTC prices went passed $500, it would kind of shoot up passed $600 and maybe even passed $700 and then likely correct back down below $500... I mean the way that the price performance played out was quite a bit different from what I expected, I went up on lower volume and it took longer to get up, and then the corrections were not as severe (at least not yet), and in the end, even though BTC prices did not reach into the $800s, the way that it played out was much more bullish than I had anticipated... so I needed to adjust some of my thinking.. and sure, it is still possible that the price could correct below $500, but the odds are seeming greater and greater, and the costs (and resistance) in which to achieve such an objective to get prices into the sub- $500s seems to be much higher... I try not to see bitcoin's future prices and the bitcoin world in terms of absolutes (until after something maybe have already happened), but like you, I do try to weigh probabilities and go with trends - even though my conclusions regarding probabilities may not be the same as yours and therefore my actions are going to be affected.

So in respect to the next year, we gotta just see how it plays out and to continue to make our predictions based on how things are playing out, but in a general sense I agree with you that there are a lot of BTC fundamentals in place at the current moment to allow for the likelihood that a bull market could continue to endure for a year or even longer... could be slow or could be fast or could be a combination of ongoing and onward bullish and upwards price pressures that the bears are unable to stop without expending more capital than they want to expend.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

I think that you personally have a bit of a difficulty too with my approach of buying on the way down and selling on the way up because sometimes you are suggesting to do the opposite and to pre-empt, and that just is not my style  even though a lot of folks engage in attempts to preemptively strike.

I invented buy on the way down and sell on the way up.

I'll take this as a form of humor.

...

Source: A Gentlescholar's Guide To Sarcastic Clapping, Deerface et al.

[dumbfbrankings]

IGNORED

I invented buy on the way down and sell on the way up.
and for the most part this is exactly what i have done too.
by adding a health dose of speculation, i've tried to perfect this technique and only start buying / selling toward the end of a trend.

a few months ago I fucked up and SOLD a rather large chunk of my stash, preemptively pricing in the seemingly high possibility of a continuous hardfork. what a big fat mistake that turned out to be... oh well... anyway, my current speculation suggests the bull trend will continue for at least 1 more year ( just waiting for LN to be released  ).

A few points...

Did you mean contentious hardfork? We should get a good understanding of how those work over the next couple days. (FWIW, I disagree with the ETH hardfork to bailout theDAO, but do think it will provide extremely valuable data as to how a network split is resolved by mining and exchange activity.)

A capability-bifurcated node network through segwit softfork is ugly, and some would say immoral. People like Mircea Popescu can and will proclaim pure segwit to segwit transactions to be a merge mined altcoin, and he won't be wrong. It further cements the idea that dramatic changes can be foisted upon the network without node consent, with only the approval of a handful of mining pool ops. Leaving regular full nodes blind to the fact that anything had changed isn't a positive imo, and it will be used in the future once the precedent is fully accepted and normalized. People who tout protocol immutability as an intrinsic value should be screaming against soft forks, yet they cheerlead them.

A successful HF to increase Bitcoin's capacity is about the most bullish scenario I can imagine, too bad it has been successfully painted with a black brush to the point we may never see one in Bitcoin. After all, anything that could be done in a clean HF with full node consent can be SF'd in a "creative" way with only miner consent.

I don't get your last statement, we stay bullish for at least a year while we wait for the hub and spoke gift card BTC-IOU to emerge into functional form? Do you sell if/when it crosses the vapor barrier?

We know that 0.13 rc1 is minutes away from release, and it won't contain segwit... so the network operates at capacity for how much longer? Where do these new users and use cases fit in to provide a bullish scenario? Are we just banking on world financial armageddon to happen so scared plebs send their savings on wires to exchanges and become a new generation of baghodlers while we buy boats and lambos?

it's heading to $888, try not to get in the way too much.

P.S ... 2 pages of Lightning network FUD, what happened the bullyjoeallen sock got neutered?

You got any arguments? or just name calling and random numbers pulled from your rear?

[adamstgBit]

I think that you personally have a bit of a difficulty too with my approach of buying on the way down and selling on the way up because sometimes you are suggesting to do the opposite and to pre-empt, and that just is not my style  even though a lot of folks engage in attempts to preemptively strike.

I invented buy on the way down and sell on the way up.

I'll take this as a form of humor.


Many intelligent investment circles (or maybe referred to as smart money... just kidding)... refer to this methodology, and warren buffet is known to preach such a technique, including his famous statement about buying when there is "blood in the streets."

and for the most part this is exactly what i have done too.
by adding a health dose of speculation, i've tried to perfect this technique and only start buying / selling toward the end of a trend.

Our overall approach may not be too different, even though our tweaking by learning may end up being applied a little bit differently based on our reading of the market.  Of course we are not going to want to buy a whole bunch if we are fairly certain that the price is going to continue to go down in the short term, nor are we going to want to sell a bunch if we are fairly certain that the price is going to go up in the short term.  Yet, we also may not want to miss some smaller swings, either... yet these are kind of judgement calls.  For example, if the price appears to be moving up quickly and seems to be on a 10% upwards trajectory, I still would likely to sell smaller amounts every 2% or so and then maybe bigger chucks when it reaches close to a 10% adjustment.  Trying to play a little bit of both, and each of us is going to come to different conclusions regarding how to approach these kinds of movements, yet I personally am not competing with anyone to make more profits, I am just trying to feel comfortable with myself, even if I leave a bit on the table, here and there, which actually happens from time to time (actually regularly).

a few months ago I fucked up and SOLD a rather large chunk of my stash, preemptively pricing in the seemingly high possibility of a continuous hardfork. what a big fat mistake that turned out to be... oh well...

I remember that sale of yours to be around $420, and yes, that is an example of a preemptive strike, and I find nothing really wrong with making those kinds of preemptive strike decisions, if that makes you feel better under whatever is the then current market conditions that you perceive.

anyway, my current speculation suggests the bull trend will continue for at least 1 more year ( just waiting for LN to be released  ).

I think that I am a lot more comfortable with an ongoing analysis of the situation, and trying to predict a year in bitcoinlandia is nearly impossible because we really do not know what cards various actors have up their sleeves, if any.

Take for example the most recent price splurge above $500.  Each of us who are watching BTC prices and how things play out kind of had our theories regarding whether prices would go above $500 and how it could possibly play out.  For me, it has kind of played out how I was thinking, but at the same time, it is quite a bit different with how I was thinking as well, so I have to adjust my thinking regarding how it actually played out versus what I had previously been thinking.

Previously, I thought that once BTC prices went passed $500, it would kind of shoot up passed $600 and maybe even passed $700 and then likely correct back down below $500... I mean the way that the price performance played out was quite a bit different from what I expected, I went up on lower volume and it took longer to get up, and then the corrections were not as severe (at least not yet), and in the end, even though BTC prices did not reach into the $800s, the way that it played out was much more bullish than I had anticipated... so I needed to adjust some of my thinking.. and sure, it is still possible that the price could correct below $500, but the odds are seeming greater and greater, and the costs (and resistance) in which to achieve such an objective to get prices into the sub- $500s seems to be much higher... I try not to see bitcoin's future prices and the bitcoin world in terms of absolutes (until after something maybe have already happened), but like you, I do try to weigh probabilities and go with trends - even though my conclusions regarding probabilities may not be the same as yours and therefore my actions are going to be affected.

So in respect to the next year, we gotta just see how it plays out and to continue to make our predictions based on how things are playing out, but in a general sense I agree with you that there are a lot of BTC fundamentals in place at the current moment to allow for the likelihood that a bull market could continue to endure for a year or even longer... could be slow or could be fast or could be a combination of ongoing and onward bullish and upwards price pressures that the bears are unable to stop without expending more capital than they want to expend.

I only have 1 problem with all this.

I think the short term is what's hard to predict. because we really do not know what cards various actors have up their sleeves.
but in the long run, all we've done here is create a huge amount of opportunities, who builds what at what time is kinda irrelevant in the long run.

its like 2MB HF and THEN Segwit
or
Segwit and then 2MB HF later.

in the long run... what the fuck does it matter?

or think of the Twins ETF, if it wasn't them that did it, do you really think no one else would of stepped up?

the past is cast in stone
the future is unavoidable
today is gift, this is why we call it the present.

if its not us that grabs the vanishing liquidity sub 700 it'll be them.

BTW, its almost 9:00am in china  

[marcus_of_augustus]

[adamstgBit]

IGNORED

I invented buy on the way down and sell on the way up.
and for the most part this is exactly what i have done too.
by adding a health dose of speculation, i've tried to perfect this technique and only start buying / selling toward the end of a trend.

a few months ago I fucked up and SOLD a rather large chunk of my stash, preemptively pricing in the seemingly high possibility of a continuous hardfork. what a big fat mistake that turned out to be... oh well... anyway, my current speculation suggests the bull trend will continue for at least 1 more year ( just waiting for LN to be released  ).

A few points...

Did you mean contentious hardfork? We should get a good understanding of how those work over the next couple days. (FWIW, I disagree with the ETH hardfork to bailout theDAO, but do think it will provide extremely valuable data as to how a network split is resolved by mining and exchange activity.)

A capability-bifurcated node network through segwit softfork is ugly, and some would say immoral. People like Mircea Popescu can and will proclaim pure segwit to segwit transactions to be a merge mined altcoin, and he won't be wrong. It further cements the idea that dramatic changes can be foisted upon the network without node consent, with only the approval of a handful of mining pool ops. Leaving regular full nodes blind to the fact that anything had changed isn't a positive imo, and it will be used in the future once the precedent is fully accepted and normalized. People who tout protocol immutability as an intrinsic value should be screaming against soft forks, yet they cheerlead them.

A successful HF to increase Bitcoin's capacity is about the most bullish scenario I can imagine, too bad it has been successfully painted with a black brush to the point we may never see one in Bitcoin. After all, anything that could be done in a clean HF with full node consent can be SF'd in a "creative" way with only miner consent.

I don't get your last statement, we stay bullish for at least a year while we wait for the hub and spoke gift card BTC-IOU to emerge into functional form? Do you sell if/when it crosses the vapor barrier?

We know that 0.13 rc1 is minutes away from release, and it won't contain segwit... so the network operates at capacity for how much longer? Where do these new users and use cases fit in to provide a bullish scenario? Are we just banking on world financial armageddon to happen so scared plebs send their savings on wires to exchanges and become a new generation of baghodlers while we buy boats and lambos?

the validity of the direction we have taken for scaling  ( segwit +LN ) is irrelevant. it will only become relevant to price when its released. for now all that matters for price is that we make progress in that direction. we will push higher and higher as we inch closer and closer to the release. when it is released THEN we will be in a position to evaluate its validity / usefulness, but not before.

[KonceptCars]

if its not us that grabs the vanishing liquidity sub 700 it'll be them.

I agree with this outlook. Regarding the poll, I think this month will end just around $675, where it is today.