Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Pale Phoenix]

But the reptile knows some good saunas he could entertain them in. Those officials like things like that!

He probably already has those officials in his pocket like a handful of satoshis.

[10c]

They can only regulate as far as we allow them to...
but I do think if the IRS makes it official and governments accept BTC this would be a bullish sign for mass adoption.
and we all know what that means...

They have to accept it.
End-of-year business accounts around the world, are being presented to their respective tax offices, with a declaration of this strange new thing called Bitcoin.
They need to get with the program, if they are to tax their citizens effectively. If the declarations are sizable, we will start to see some precedents with regards to tax, soon.

I don't think this is the case. Businesses have transacted in foreign currency for a very long time, but in most countries, you still can't pay your taxes with it. There are long standing accounting rules for handling the conversion of foreign currencies to your home currency and the recognition of the profit/loss derived from the conversion.

I don't see why Bitcoin would be any different. The IRS doesn't want to deal with currency risk in the collection of taxes.

This is only true if you convert to fiat.
The article I linked to states receiving paycheck in BTC not receive BTC and convert to euro or usd.
This changes the game. They state BTC doen't meet the requirements of a currency under current law.

I think this spawned because of a major IT company payed out the anual 'vacation money' in BTC

[10c]

Here's a snippit of a pm to an other meber that translates the article i was refering to

Yesterday Bitcoin hit the front page of the main news page here in holland again. 
here is a link to the article: http://www.nu.nl/tech/3495285/inkomsten-in-bitcoins-worden-belast.html
It's in dutch but here's a translate/recap of it before you put it in to google translate.

Basically the article states that the minister of finance (Dijsselbloem) states that people acquiring income out of Bitcoin (actually  get payed in coin) need to pay income tax on the coins. The reason for the this statement is that there has been a debate in parlement regarding Bitcoin. The minister states that even though BTC is not recognized as a legal currency (in Holland); people who get payed in BTC need to pay income tax on it.

No risk
He also states 'that as of yet' there is no risk to the financial stability in regards to 'the real economy' due to the limited market cap and low degree of acceptance of BTC. He also states that the developments of this virtual currency are closely monitored by the dutch federal bank (federal reserve) because it's not uncertain that the use of these virtual currencies may increase.

20 Million euro
The minister also states that around 2% of all coins are in dutch hands which equals around 20 million euro. The statement is made due to questions by the parlement after the big swings in value in april (the crash event)

[Pale Phoenix]

Well the major problem I see with taxing bitcoin income is the same one we have right now.
How do you value a coin?
so I earned 10 coins today-> this can buy me a nice tv today but tomorrow the same tv costs 15 coins.
so I earn 40 coins a month what taxbox does this fit? 45% or 52%? and why am I in a certain taxbox while coins increase or decrease in value?

These rules are already well established because businesses who transact globally deal with this everyday. When you actually dispose of your coins, by selling or spending them, you have to account for the gain / loss on the coins you use. This requires record keeping, which is probably the biggest issue for non-business users. Hopefully the IRS and other agencies will issue simplified rules, but they certainly aren't going to look the other way if you have large gains from any activity.

[Pale Phoenix]

This is only true if you convert to fiat.
The article I linked to states receiving paycheck in BTC not receive BTC and convert to euro or usd.
This changes the game. They state BTC doen't meet the requirements of a currency under current law.

I think this spawned because of a major IT company payed out the anual 'vacation money' in BTC

Ah, if you are paid in Bitcoin, it does complicate things a bit. In that case, you use the conversion rate at the time of receipt of the coins to calculate your income, and that then becomes your "basis" in the coins. When you eventually convert the coins to fiat by selling or spending, you recognize the difference between the value you receive and your basis as profit / loss for tax purposes.

[stereotype]

But the reptile knows some good saunas he could entertain them in. Those officials like things like that!

He probably already has those officials in his pocket like a handful of satoshis.

I think your sig is perfect, in this context!

[stereotype]

Well the major problem I see with taxing bitcoin income is the same one we have right now.
How do you value a coin?
so I earned 10 coins today-> this can buy me a nice tv today but tomorrow the same tv costs 15 coins.
so I earn 40 coins a month what taxbox does this fit? 45% or 52%? and why am I in a certain taxbox while coins increase or decrease in value?

These rules are already well established because businesses who transact globally deal with this everyday. When you actually dispose of your coins, by selling or spending them, you have to account for the gain / loss on the coins you use. This requires record keeping, which is probably the biggest issue for non-business users. Hopefully the IRS and other agencies will issue simplified rules, but they certainly aren't going to look the other way if you have large gains from any activity.

Agreed Pale.

What 10c said, is why we pay our officials, to work these things out. At least we have declared something.

[adamstgBit]

some fool sold me bitcoin!
 

[10c]

[
These rules are already well established because businesses who transact globally deal with this everyday. When you actually dispose of your coins, by selling or spending them, you have to account for the gain / loss on the coins you use. This requires record keeping, which is probably the biggest issue for non-business users. Hopefully the IRS and other agencies will issue simplified rules, but they certainly aren't going to look the other way if you have large gains from any activity.

Agreed Pale.

What 10c said, is why we pay our officials, to work these things out. At least we have declared something.

I agree but you have to let the fiat conversion out of the equation.
In an ideal world I could pay for food at every store with btc, pay for rent (denominated in BTC) and the rest of it...
so if you don't sell them it's hard to tax them.
as an example:
I walk in to the local Benz dealer and buy that new E-class.
E-class=X BTC but E-class=Y euro. Now the IRS taxes on the conversion rate at the point in time you made the purchase.
This would lead to shit load of work for them.
an other problem is that when I walk in to the dealership to buy that car vat (and the illegal according to EU law) BMP are already included in the sales price. so now what?
Can we pay our officials in BTC?  

[10c]

Ok back on topic as this is not the tread for this I think 

for what price did you buy in adam?

[lucas.sev]

Ok back on topic as this is not the tread for this I think 

for what price did you buy in adam?

He most likely didn't, he does not believe in the 180$ in 13 days bullshit himself.

[phoenix1]

Ok back on topic as this is not the tread for this I think 

for what price did you buy in adam?

He most likely didn't, he does not believe in the 180$ in 13 days bullshit himself.

But what about the Bitcoin Baby ??

[lucas.sev]

Ok back on topic as this is not the tread for this I think 

for what price did you buy in adam?

He most likely didn't, he does not believe in the 180$ in 13 days bullshit himself.

But what about the Bitcoin Baby ??

Guess it got aborted.

[adamstgBit]

Ok back on topic as this is not the tread for this I think 

for what price did you buy in adam?

He most likely didn't, he does not believe in the 180$ in 13 days bullshit himself.

I got some at 106, the lowest price on virtex today  

yes i do believe 180$ in 13days, this is why i will panic buy at 111

[lucas.sev]

Ok back on topic as this is not the tread for this I think 

for what price did you buy in adam?

He most likely didn't, he does not believe in the 180$ in 13 days bullshit himself.

I got some at 106, the lowest price on virtex today  

yes i do believe 180$ in 13days, this is why i will panic buy at 111

111 already happened, and you were online at that time and decided not to buy. If you believe in 180 why you refused a bet?

[adamstgBit]

Ok back on topic as this is not the tread for this I think 

for what price did you buy in adam?

He most likely didn't, he does not believe in the 180$ in 13 days bullshit himself.

But what about the Bitcoin Baby ??

Guess it got aborted.

Bitcoin Baby is alive and well.

[Frozenlock]

yes i do believe 180$ in 13days, this is why i will panic buy at 111

Didn't you say $110 previously?

[lucas.sev]

yes i do believe 180$ in 13days, this is why i will panic buy at 111

Didn't you say $110 previously?

Nah, he said that he will panic buy at 111 "like everyone else"

[rdsc]

Bitcoin Baby is alive and well.
[/quote]

http://www.laserfx.com/Services/ClipArtAnims/Boogie_Baby.gif

[phoenix1]

Bitcoin Baby is alive and well.

[/quote]

Phew ...
That's good news  

Bitcoin baby got da moves ... oh yeah ... go baby