Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[natewelt]

Yeah, every trade is a taxable event to US persons. Whether that is buying coffee or litecoin. It is property according to the IRS.

Even if you thought you could get away with the like kind exchange rule, you still have to report every trade individually on the exemption form.

If it were classified as a stock, you could just report net gains and losses but not so with property.

They have made compliance nearly impossible so unless someone passes a law to exempt transactions prior to a certain date, a lot of people are going to owe back taxes and penalties if not jail time.

^^^yes yes everyone saying it's a legit loophole is going to be in for a beating once they realize they took an aggressive position without any basis to do so. Good luck to them, their back taxes and their prison buddies.

[BTCMILLIONAIRE]

Yeah, every trade is a taxable event to US persons. Whether that is buying coffee or litecoin. It is property according to the IRS.

Even if you thought you could get away with the like kind exchange rule, you still have to report every trade individually on the exemption form.

If it were classified as a stock, you could just report net gains and losses but not so with property.

They have made compliance nearly impossible so unless someone passes a law to exempt transactions prior to a certain date, a lot of people are going to owe back taxes and penalties if not jail time.

Simple solution: Become an expat.

Does not apply to US citizens unless you give up your citizenship.

Sounds like a good trade to me.

[explorer]

Friend got this.  This is what the start of mass adoption looks like

Why you Bitfinex no scale up service before? 4 years since the last destructive influx, you'd think they'd have been prepared for the next couple order of magnitude increases by now.  Like, hodlers buy the dip, exchanges scale up during the dip?  But but but we had no idea that this would happen!  Ahahahahaha
 Zero Vision.  I award you no points, and may....

[samson]

Yeah, every trade is a taxable event to US persons. Whether that is buying coffee or litecoin. It is property according to the IRS.

Even if you thought you could get away with the like kind exchange rule, you still have to report every trade individually on the exemption form.

If it were classified as a stock, you could just report net gains and losses but not so with property.

They have made compliance nearly impossible so unless someone passes a law to exempt transactions prior to a certain date, a lot of people are going to owe back taxes and penalties if not jail time.

Simple solution: Become an expat.

Does not apply to US citizens unless you give up your citizenship.

That's right, you still have to pay !

[BTCMILLIONAIRE]

Yeah, every trade is a taxable event to US persons. Whether that is buying coffee or litecoin. It is property according to the IRS.

Even if you thought you could get away with the like kind exchange rule, you still have to report every trade individually on the exemption form.

If it were classified as a stock, you could just report net gains and losses but not so with property.

They have made compliance nearly impossible so unless someone passes a law to exempt transactions prior to a certain date, a lot of people are going to owe back taxes and penalties if not jail time.

Simple solution: Become an expat.

Does not apply to US citizens unless you give up your citizenship.

That's right, you still have to pay !

That's really just another reason to renounce citizenship.

Does the US not have double taxation treaties though? In some places you can just create an offshore company, tax your profits in a different legislation, and then be exempt from further taxes under your own legislation due to the treaty as you've "already paid them" (even if the taxes are as low as 2% or even 0%).

[nikauforest]

Yeah, every trade is a taxable event to US persons. Whether that is buying coffee or litecoin. It is property according to the IRS.

Even if you thought you could get away with the like kind exchange rule, you still have to report every trade individually on the exemption form.

If it were classified as a stock, you could just report net gains and losses but not so with property.

They have made compliance nearly impossible so unless someone passes a law to exempt transactions prior to a certain date, a lot of people are going to owe back taxes and penalties if not jail time.

Simple solution: Become an expat.

Does not apply to US citizens unless you give up your citizenship.

That's right, you still have to pay !

That's really just another reason to renounce citizenship.

Does the US not have double taxation treaties though? In some places you can just create an offshore company, tax your profits in a different legislation, and then be exempt from further taxes under your own legislation due to the treaty as you've "already paid them" (even if the taxes are as low as 2% or even 0%).

I was a US citizen. I gave it up in 2014, the tax laws are just too complicated. Simple honest mistakes can generate huge fines.

[rolling]

Yeah, every trade is a taxable event to US persons. Whether that is buying coffee or litecoin. It is property according to the IRS.

Even if you thought you could get away with the like kind exchange rule, you still have to report every trade individually on the exemption form.

If it were classified as a stock, you could just report net gains and losses but not so with property.

They have made compliance nearly impossible so unless someone passes a law to exempt transactions prior to a certain date, a lot of people are going to owe back taxes and penalties if not jail time.

Simple solution: Become an expat.

Does not apply to US citizens unless you give up your citizenship.

That's right, you still have to pay !

That's really just another reason to renounce citizenship.

Does the US not have double taxation treaties though? In some places you can just create an offshore company, tax your profits in a different legislation, and then be exempt from further taxes under your own legislation due to the treaty as you've "already paid them" (even if the taxes are as low as 2% or even 0%).

There is really no good loophole. They have locked it all down. What you describe would be a "Controlled Foreign Corporation" which has it's own issues. Giving up citizenship has an exit tax plus they will still come after you years later if they find out you didn't pay what you owed.

[realr0ach]

Look, when the whales begin to believe that the bull market has ended, it's going to go below $5k. Their going to want to take profit.

That's what we call the Goldman Suplex.  When they bomb it down to the 50% retracement and make people believe they're getting a good deal so they all take longs, while the people sitting on 200,000 coins that were the only thing propping up the market are all dumping on the longs and it implodes down to the 38% retracement or lower wiping out everyone.

[itod]

Does the US not have double taxation treaties though? In some places you can just create an offshore company, tax your profits in a different legislation, and then be exempt from further taxes under your own legislation due to the treaty as you've "already paid them" (even if the taxes are as low as 2% or even 0%).

That's why a lot of rich people all over the world choose Monaco for the residence. They pay lover income taxes there and don't pay in their domicile country. Nobody pay's income tax twice, can't believe it's current US law.

[explorer]

I didn't think bitcoin could be this volatile with the size of market cap it has now. I was wrong. It's going haywire right now!

Bigger market cap, but possibly fewer coins in the float, definitely 1/2 the new coins mined per block.  Land Rush in progress.  It's just that the train is over full, and can't make the grade, so it has to shake like a wet dog, and try again, with MORE STEAM.

[RejectedBanana]

Yeah, every trade is a taxable event to US persons. Whether that is buying coffee or litecoin. It is property according to the IRS.

Even if you thought you could get away with the like kind exchange rule, you still have to report every trade individually on the exemption form.

If it were classified as a stock, you could just report net gains and losses but not so with property.

They have made compliance nearly impossible so unless someone passes a law to exempt transactions prior to a certain date, a lot of people are going to owe back taxes and penalties if not jail time.

Simple solution: Become an expat.

Not so easy or simple, unfortunately. Have you heard of the Exit Tax? Capital gains are realized for high net worth individuals upon renouncing.

You still owe cap gains if you don't renounce and just expat. Unless you plan on just hiding and never setting foot in US again nor using any international banks cooperating with FinCen rules.

Puerto Rico offers tax free cap gains for residents, but you still owe on any gains realized up to the date you become a resident.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2017/02/27/renounce-u-s-heres-how-irs-computes-exit-tax/#45c8627287d4

[BTCMILLIONAIRE]

There is really no good loophole. They have locked it all down. What you describe would be a "Controlled Foreign Corporation" which has it's own issues. Giving up citizenship has an exit tax plus they will still come after you years later if they find out you didn't pay what you owed.

All the more reason to leave as soon as possible. I wouldn't want to be held hostage for the rest of my life.

Does the US not have double taxation treaties though? In some places you can just create an offshore company, tax your profits in a different legislation, and then be exempt from further taxes under your own legislation due to the treaty as you've "already paid them" (even if the taxes are as low as 2% or even 0%).

That's why a lot of rich people all over the world choose Monaco for the residence. They pay lover income taxes there and don't pay in their domicile country. Nobody pay's income tax twice, can't believe it's current US law.

Probably because most people just bend over and do as told. Stockholm syndrome much?

I was a US citizen. I gave it up in 2014, the tax laws are just too complicated. Simple honest mistakes can generate huge fines.

Well, not like the tax system was created to help out honest people who desire a simple life in the first place.

[BTCMILLIONAIRE]

Yeah, every trade is a taxable event to US persons. Whether that is buying coffee or litecoin. It is property according to the IRS.

Even if you thought you could get away with the like kind exchange rule, you still have to report every trade individually on the exemption form.

If it were classified as a stock, you could just report net gains and losses but not so with property.

They have made compliance nearly impossible so unless someone passes a law to exempt transactions prior to a certain date, a lot of people are going to owe back taxes and penalties if not jail time.

Simple solution: Become an expat.

Not so easy or simple, unfortunately. Have you heard of the Exit Tax? Capital gains are realized for high net worth individuals upon renouncing.

You still owe cap gains if you don't renounce and just expat. Unless you plan on just hiding and never setting foot in US again nor using any international banks cooperating with FinCen rules.

Puerto Rico offers tax free cap gains for residents, but you still owe on any gains realized up to the date you become a resident.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2017/02/27/renounce-u-s-heres-how-irs-computes-exit-tax/#45c8627287d4

No, I actually haven't heard of the exit tax. It does make sense to some degree, or at least it would if taxes were legitimate in the first place. But regardless of whether or not you'd choose to pay what you "owe" before renouncing, it still doesn't sound like anyone who expects any significant profits should be staying in the US any longer than absolutely necessary for whatever individual circumstances.

[jojo69]

yeah, it is one of the most criminal and embarassing things about the US

absurd on the face of it

[RejectedBanana]

Yeah, every trade is a taxable event to US persons. Whether that is buying coffee or litecoin. It is property according to the IRS.

Even if you thought you could get away with the like kind exchange rule, you still have to report every trade individually on the exemption form.

If it were classified as a stock, you could just report net gains and losses but not so with property.

They have made compliance nearly impossible so unless someone passes a law to exempt transactions prior to a certain date, a lot of people are going to owe back taxes and penalties if not jail time.

Simple solution: Become an expat.

Not so easy or simple, unfortunately. Have you heard of the Exit Tax? Capital gains are realized for high net worth individuals upon renouncing.

You still owe cap gains if you don't renounce and just expat. Unless you plan on just hiding and never setting foot in US again nor using any international banks cooperating with FinCen rules.

Puerto Rico offers tax free cap gains for residents, but you still owe on any gains realized up to the date you become a resident.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2017/02/27/renounce-u-s-heres-how-irs-computes-exit-tax/#45c8627287d4

No, I actually haven't heard of the exit tax. It does make sense to some degree, or at least it would if taxes were legitimate in the first place. But regardless of whether or not you'd choose to pay what you "owe" before renouncing, it still doesn't sound like anyone who expects any significant profits should be staying in the US any longer than absolutely necessary for whatever individual circumstances.

Agreed. However, I'm suspecting you're not married or have many close family relations in the US? The moment I brought up renouncing to my wife, and that she would need to apply for visas to visit family, friends, etc., well... you can imagine the response. Although she's warming up to it proportionally to crypto value.

Which begs the question, how much is US citizenship worth? A US passport gets you in a lot of places without visas or trouble. Attaining citizenship in another country takes time and often a good deal of (traceable, taxable) fiat. Although being stateless is an option, it's not recommended for long. You have no rights, anywhere.

[BTCMILLIONAIRE]

Yeah, every trade is a taxable event to US persons. Whether that is buying coffee or litecoin. It is property according to the IRS.

Even if you thought you could get away with the like kind exchange rule, you still have to report every trade individually on the exemption form.

If it were classified as a stock, you could just report net gains and losses but not so with property.

They have made compliance nearly impossible so unless someone passes a law to exempt transactions prior to a certain date, a lot of people are going to owe back taxes and penalties if not jail time.

Simple solution: Become an expat.

Not so easy or simple, unfortunately. Have you heard of the Exit Tax? Capital gains are realized for high net worth individuals upon renouncing.

You still owe cap gains if you don't renounce and just expat. Unless you plan on just hiding and never setting foot in US again nor using any international banks cooperating with FinCen rules.

Puerto Rico offers tax free cap gains for residents, but you still owe on any gains realized up to the date you become a resident.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2017/02/27/renounce-u-s-heres-how-irs-computes-exit-tax/#45c8627287d4

No, I actually haven't heard of the exit tax. It does make sense to some degree, or at least it would if taxes were legitimate in the first place. But regardless of whether or not you'd choose to pay what you "owe" before renouncing, it still doesn't sound like anyone who expects any significant profits should be staying in the US any longer than absolutely necessary for whatever individual circumstances.

Agreed. However, I'm suspecting you're not married or have many close family relations in the US? The moment I brought up renouncing to my wife, and that she would need to apply for visas to visit family, friends, etc., well... you can imagine the response. Although she's warming up to it proportionally to crypto value.

Which begs the question, how much is US citizenship worth? A US passport gets you in a lot of places without visas or trouble. Attaining citizenship in another country takes time and often a good deal of (traceable, taxable) fiat. Although being stateless is an option, it's not recommended for long. You have no rights, anywhere.

Can't your wife just live with you while you "make all the money" as a renounced citizen? That way you wouldn't have to tax your profits, and she could visit her relatives without any issues.

And no, I don't live in the US so that's not a concern for me. And my family would follow me blindly if I asked them to and told them that I'd take care of everything.

And really, considering that the lowest CGT rate is 20% in the US I'd take the money and apply for visas over keeping citizenship to a mess of a country. There are other countries that have "free passes" to most relevant places and low taxes too, although I don't know how difficult it would be for an US citizen to get citizenship there. I'd imagine it can't be too bad.

[404Revolution]

The United States has already lost a great deal of their intelligent, (often) young, bright minds because of these ludicrously oppressive tax decisions. This will continue and i reccomend every single citizen of the United States to expatriate.

The liberty that they claim to offer is nowhere to be found.

[HI-TEC99]

I didn't think bitcoin could be this volatile with the size of market cap it has now. I was wrong. It's going haywire right now!

Bigger market cap, but possibly fewer coins in the float, definitely 1/2 the new coins mined per block.  Land Rush in progress.  It's just that the train is over full, and can't make the grade, so it has to shake like a wet dog, and try again, with MORE STEAM.

Maybe in another few years it will be going up and down by $100k a week and $10k movements will go unnoticed.

[HairyMaclairy]

Yeah, every trade is a taxable event to US persons. Whether that is buying coffee or litecoin. It is property according to the IRS.

Even if you thought you could get away with the like kind exchange rule, you still have to report every trade individually on the exemption form.

If it were classified as a stock, you could just report net gains and losses but not so with property.

They have made compliance nearly impossible so unless someone passes a law to exempt transactions prior to a certain date, a lot of people are going to owe back taxes and penalties if not jail time.

Simple solution: Become an expat.

Not so easy or simple, unfortunately. Have you heard of the Exit Tax? Capital gains are realized for high net worth individuals upon renouncing.

You still owe cap gains if you don't renounce and just expat. Unless you plan on just hiding and never setting foot in US again nor using any international banks cooperating with FinCen rules.

Puerto Rico offers tax free cap gains for residents, but you still owe on any gains realized up to the date you become a resident.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2017/02/27/renounce-u-s-heres-how-irs-computes-exit-tax/#45c8627287d4

No, I actually haven't heard of the exit tax. It does make sense to some degree, or at least it would if taxes were legitimate in the first place. But regardless of whether or not you'd choose to pay what you "owe" before renouncing, it still doesn't sound like anyone who expects any significant profits should be staying in the US any longer than absolutely necessary for whatever individual circumstances.

Agreed. However, I'm suspecting you're not married or have many close family relations in the US? The moment I brought up renouncing to my wife, and that she would need to apply for visas to visit family, friends, etc., well... you can imagine the response. Although she's warming up to it proportionally to crypto value.

Which begs the question, how much is US citizenship worth? A US passport gets you in a lot of places without visas or trouble. Attaining citizenship in another country takes time and often a good deal of (traceable, taxable) fiat. Although being stateless is an option, it's not recommended for long. You have no rights, anywhere.

I think you can buy New Zealand citizenship and that will get you anywhere US citizenship will.  You can go buy mountain in Queenstown with all the hedge fund billionaires.

[realr0ach]

Agreed. However, I'm suspecting you're not married or have many close family relations in the US? The moment I brought up renouncing to my wife, and that she would need to apply for visas to visit family, friends, etc., well... you can imagine the response.

Every day I am bombarded by facts illustrating the US is a gynocentric empire of nothingness.  There's probably no point even educating women in the first place, because even if they learn some type of skill to generate a living, it actually makes them upset to do so and they find no purpose in life without attempting to extort resources from men instead.  The mind of a woman literally is the mind of a prostitute.  They have no idea what to do with their lives if they accidentally acquire resources using a non-prostitution method.

Case in point, a 17yr old woman in the UK won the lottery then claimed it made her unhappy because she no longer had any type of purpose and then she attempted to sue the govt for giving her the money:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/she-won-more-than-a-million-dollars-in-the-lottery-and-shes-suing-the-lottery-over-it-2017-02-15