Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[frienemy]

I might have to move to Germany at some point (free travel within the EU anyway) but I'm not sure when the one year will commence then. From when I bought it or from when I moved country?

From when you bought. Your gains are becoming taxable the instant you sell the coins (even if you leave the  fiat on the exchange).

I'm working in a tax office in Germany, so I'm not talking complete bullshit ^^

[flynn]

weekly and daily, Log

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[frienemy]

Thanks! Might be difficult to prove the real origin as many of my Bitcoins have been traded (loaned/invested etc) within the Bitcoin community many times. Maybe just showing that the transactions the filled my addresses are >1 year ago is sufficient though?

I don't think that will be sufficient. There's no way to tell right now. If you have bitcoin gains in your tax return, this tax return is going to be a preliminary one anyway, because no one is sure how to handle it exactly. That will be the case for at least a few years.

[niothor]

Actually some people pay tax on their gains on BTC , interesting
Sometimes is indeed nice to live in a messed up country , just like mine. (And still be part of the EU).

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[ihaveaquestion]

Thanks! Might be difficult to prove the real origin as many of my Bitcoins have been traded (loaned/invested etc) within the Bitcoin community many times. Maybe just showing that the transactions the filled my addresses are >1 year ago is sufficient though?

I don't think that will be sufficient. There's no way to tell right now. If you have bitcoin gains in your tax return, this tax return is going to be a preliminary one anyway, because no one is sure how to handle it exactly. That will be the case for at least a few years.

How do you think will be handled the case of a guy who bought 100 BTC 18 months ago, traded altcoins succesfully on cryptsty and mintpal to obtain 300 BTC and buys today a house with  this amount? Is there a way to prove the coins on cryptsy are his? I think this is a great news for Bitcoin and a very accurate economical choice but i feel it is very easy to fraud (by buying on kraken and selling on btc-e for instance) or almost impossible to prove anything about the age of the sold coins. What do you guys think about it?

Besides, i have a question about China. If i have understood correctly, deposits are no longer available on Huobi and OKCoin, the only way to send yuans there is by buying their coupons, right? How is it so different from 3 weeks ago? And what about BTCChina? Are the deposits no longer available there?

[Guinpen]

Just read over on reddit that Germany classifies BTC as "private money".  This is some good news.

Isn't that very old news?

It is.

I still do not understand what that means, though.

[Ivanhoe]

Actually some people pay tax on their gains on BTC , interesting
Sometimes is indeed nice to live in a messed up country , just like mine. (And still be part of the EU).

Bulgaria?

[lebing]

Just read over on reddit that Germany classifies BTC as "private money".  This is some good news.

Isn't that very old news?

It is.

I still do not understand what that means, though.

its a special german classification which is the same classification they use for gold. This means that if you hold for longer than a year the gains are tax free.

[niothor]

Actually some people pay tax on their gains on BTC , interesting
Sometimes is indeed nice to live in a messed up country , just like mine. (And still be part of the EU).

Bulgaria?

Romania . But you were very close.

[JorgeStolfi]

Besides, i have a question about China. If i have understood correctly, deposits are no longer available on Huobi and OKCoin, the only way to send yuans there is by buying their coupons, right? How is it so different from 3 weeks ago? And what about BTCChina? Are the deposits no longer available there?

Before March 27 all exchanges (except perhaps Bt'er) accepted deposits through wire transfers from the client banks into their corporate bank accounts.   That deposit channel has been closed , piecewise, in all Chinese exchanges.   It remains availabe for withdrawals, for now.

Some exchanges also used to accept deposit money through 3rd payment processors.  Those channels clearly violated the December decree and were the first to be closed.

Huobi, and perhaps others, also had "recharge cards" (sort of debit card it seems) apparently issued by a "4th party" card company. A client could put money into his card (presumably through bank wire transfer and/or 3rd party processor), and then use the card to deposit money into his internal Huobi account.  Huobi suspended this channel for a while but reopened it on Apr/17.  OKCoin either did not have it, or closed it and apparently did not reopen it.

OKCoin instead created a "recharge code"system, that, as I understand, allows a client A (a "broker") to transfer CNY from his OKCoin internal account to that of another client B.  For that, B has to negotiate with A and pay him in CNY outside the OKCoin system and their bank account.  A couple of days ago, it seems that they had only one such broker and he set a minimum of 10,000 CNY per transfer.

I don't know how the other exchanges are doing.

EDIT: BTC-China installed an ATM in Shangai and plans to install more eventually. They also have a smartphone app that allows clients to trade cryptocoins directly p2p; I don't know any more details.

[niothor]

Actually some people pay tax on their gains on BTC , interesting
Sometimes is indeed nice to live in a messed up country , just like mine. (And still be part of the EU).

Bulgaria?

Romania . But you were very close.

The two additions to the EU I could not for the light of me comprehend

From my point of view , the people who allowed .ro to join the EU were pretty stupid , with a lot of bone in their heads.
But , it's too late for that .

Still if you want a heaven for bitcoin taxation and you can live with the dogs,holes,whores, and so on ..romania is for you

[Threebits]

Besides, i have a question about China. If i have understood correctly, deposits are no longer available on Huobi and OKCoin, the only way to send yuans there is by buying their coupons, right? How is it so different from 3 weeks ago? And what about BTCChina? Are the deposits no longer available there?

Yes, buying the coupon is the only legal way. The difference is, having blocked bitcoin from commerce, the government further blocks it from the masses.

Consequently, no fresh fiat will be coming in from China, as I understand.

[JorgeStolfi]

Besides, i have a question about China. If i have understood correctly, deposits are no longer available on Huobi and OKCoin, the only way to send yuans there is by buying their coupons, right? How is it so different from 3 weeks ago? And what about BTCChina? Are the deposits no longer available there?

Yes, buying the coupon is the only legal way. The difference is, having blocked bitcoin from commerce, the government further blocks it from the masses.

Consequently, no fresh fiat will be coming in from China, as I understand.

Yes, those coupons or vouchers were the only method used by BTC-China right after the December decree. (Eventually they too started accepting deposits through their corporate bank accounts, but these are again closed now.)  I am not sure how those vouchers work, but a client buys them somewhere, somehow (not from internet shopping sites, it seems) and then uses them to deposit into his internal BTC-China account.

[JayJuanGee]

On the other hand if the rise goes high enough the short need to cut their positions which makes us go higher; a lot of traders are looking for the price to break a few resistances to get back in

You may be correct, and some of them are somewhat risk averse and will leave some money on the table by waiting to receive certain assurances....

I have a couple thousand fiat that I could invest right now... it is in my bank account, but I am NOT investing it now b/c I am using it to hedge for the possibility that we could go below $450 or $400 or $350 or even lower.  To me, it seems that the longer we linger in this $460 to $560 territory, the more likely we are going to be breaking upward rather than downward....   

[JayJuanGee]

I might have to move to Germany at some point (free travel within the EU anyway) but I'm not sure when the one year will commence then. From when I bought it or from when I moved country?

From when you bought. Your gains are becoming taxable the instant you sell the coins (even if you leave the  fiat on the exchange).

I'm working in a tax office in Germany, so I'm not talking complete bullshit ^^

That is really ridiculous and potentially burdensome.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[billyjoeallen]

Actually some people pay tax on their gains on BTC , interesting
Sometimes is indeed nice to live in a messed up country , just like mine. (And still be part of the EU).

Bulgaria?

Romania . But you were very close.

The two additions to the EU I could not for the light of me comprehend

From my point of view , the people who allowed .ro to join the EU were pretty stupid , with a lot of bone in their heads.
But , it's too late for that .

Still if you want a heaven for bitcoin taxation and you can live with the dogs,holes,whores, and so on ..romania is for you

And vampires, of course. and gypsies. Sexiest girl I ever met online was a German speaking chick from Romania.

[niothor]

Actually some people pay tax on their gains on BTC , interesting
Sometimes is indeed nice to live in a messed up country , just like mine. (And still be part of the EU).

Bulgaria?

Romania . But you were very close.

The two additions to the EU I could not for the light of me comprehend

From my point of view , the people who allowed .ro to join the EU were pretty stupid , with a lot of bone in their heads.
But , it's too late for that .

Still if you want a heaven for bitcoin taxation and you can live with the dogs,holes,whores, and so on ..romania is for you

Thanks for the information but what's tax haven about it? According to http://www.ey.com/GL/en/Services/Tax/The-worldwide-personal-tax-guide---XMLQS?preview&XmlUrl=/ec1mages/taxguides/TGE-2013/TGE-RO.xml there is a 16% capital gains tax.

Because in real life nobody is paying anything.
I've been working for freelance and GAF for years , I've done a lot of affiliate programs and I sold a few bitcoins also but I haven't payed a single penny.
And so did a lot of my friends who were involved in website promotions and affiliate programs (adbrite adwords etc).

And to this date nobody bothered to look into this.
Keep your bank transactions low , don't exceed 1000$/time or 10000$ a year with the same bank and nobody will check it out.

And if you dare to pay... you're in a world of pain as a lot of the guys at the tax office don't have a clue about those kind of earnings.
Two years  ago i tried to get 'legal" and to declare all my income. I spent days after days waiting in queues sometimes for hours and speaking with idiots who had no clue until.. I go fed up with it.

I can't even imagine going there are asking about taxation on BTC , they will probably throw me out thinking i'm joking