Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[adamstgBit]

we have a break to the up side.

[spooderman]

How can you lose your savings if it didnt go to 0 ? The very worst you could do is lose 60%

That wasn't meant literally, of course.  Losing 60% of all you own is bad enough, don't you think?

But you CAN lose all of your life savings if you left the bitcoins in MtGOX, invested in Neo & Bee, or any of the other zillion bitcoin scams. (The first time I heard of bitcoin was when Rick Falkvinge tweeted that he was investing all his savings in bitcoin. Guess where he left them.  Fortunately for him he managed to get part of them out in time.)

You can also invest your 50'000$ of savings plus 50'000$ borrowed from relatives, friends and banks.  (You can bet that many people did that.  If the salesman says that for sure BTC will be worth 1'000'000$ in a few years...)

This idea that the government needs to protect you from your own investment decisions is comical.

It is funny, but one of the things that people expect the government to do is to protect them from scammers who try to sell unsound financial instruments with misleading promises.  That is why there are things like the SEC and consumer protection laws.  And that seems to be the reason why many bitcoin businesses catering primarily to US citizens are based in Panama or other unlikely countries.

Personally I think it is a good thing that a government does that to a certain extent, if it would not we would all be at the mercy of the gods (1%'ers).

or.....OR.....the government has.....*gasp* many 1%ers within it?

[dreamspark]

How can you lose your savings if it didnt go to 0 ? The very worst you could do is lose 60%

That wasn't meant literally, of course.  Losing 60% of all you own is bad enough, don't you think?

But you CAN lose all of your life savings if you left the bitcoins in MtGOX, invested in Neo & Bee, or any of the other zillion bitcoin scams. (The first time I heard of bitcoin was when Rick Falkvinge tweeted that he was investing all his savings in bitcoin. Guess where he left them.  Fortunately for him he managed to get part of them out in time.)

You can also invest your 50'000$ of savings plus 50'000$ borrowed from relatives, friends and banks.  (You can bet that many people did that.  If the salesman says that for sure BTC will be worth 1'000'000$ in a few years...)

This idea that the government needs to protect you from your own investment decisions is comical.

It is funny, but one of the things that people expect the government to do is to protect them from scammers who try to sell unsound financial instruments with misleading promises.  That is why there are things like the SEC and consumer protection laws.  And that seems to be the reason why many bitcoin businesses catering primarily to US citizens are based in Panama or other unlikely countries.

Who's the sales person? Why is there this idea with you that people have been mislead and sold something by someone in particular ? In the fiat world scams are bought into all the time do we really need to start metioned Maddof et al ? Thats what you call being robbed of your life savings not investing in a brand new BETA technology and then moaning that its lost value because you listened to some guy on the internet instead of making your own decision. These fiat financial scams and frauds genuinely rob people of their lifes work and do genuinely sing promises of high returns.

The thing that annoys me most with your conjecture is that you speak as though everyone whos in BTC right now bought $1200 coins. Thats just not the case the majority of people are well above their initial investment and the rest of them are likely down no where near 60%. 

A fool and his money are soon parted and if somebody invests in a volatile asset that they can see with their own eyes has been so volatile and then moan that it goes down instead of up they are a fool.

If someone borrows $50,000 off freinds and family to invest in a ridculously volatile asset then they are a fool.

If someone left their Bitcoins with a third party service then they are a fool.

If someone invests more than they are willing to lose they are a fool.

Dont you see where this is going ?

I take it you advocate boiler room pump and dumps then that leave people with low single digit %'s of what they were conned into investing for promises of high returns.

[dreamspark]

How can you lose your savings if it didnt go to 0 ? The very worst you could do is lose 60%

That wasn't meant literally, of course.  Losing 60% of all you own is bad enough, don't you think?

But you CAN lose all of your life savings if you left the bitcoins in MtGOX, invested in Neo & Bee, or any of the other zillion bitcoin scams. (The first time I heard of bitcoin was when Rick Falkvinge tweeted that he was investing all his savings in bitcoin. Guess where he left them.  Fortunately for him he managed to get part of them out in time.)

You can also invest your 50'000$ of savings plus 50'000$ borrowed from relatives, friends and banks.  (You can bet that many people did that.  If the salesman says that for sure BTC will be worth 1'000'000$ in a few years...)

This idea that the government needs to protect you from your own investment decisions is comical.

It is funny, but one of the things that people expect the government to do is to protect them from scammers who try to sell unsound financial instruments with misleading promises.  That is why there are things like the SEC and consumer protection laws.  And that seems to be the reason why many bitcoin businesses catering primarily to US citizens are based in Panama or other unlikely countries.

Personally I think it is a good thing that a government does that to a certain extent, if it would not we would all be at the mercy of the gods (1%'ers).

LOL cause the government aren't part of the 1%'s

EDIT: just noticed someone said the same thing pretty much. Point still stands.

Dont you see Jorge advocates the fiat scams that go on all around that are legal thanks to a corrupt government but spends his time bashing on a beta project that anyone with an iota of common sense knows could result in total losses.

[JayJuanGee]

I'm curious. What actually happened? (about the lost coins / laptop / sauna / beach / moon)

This is the gist of it. It's implied that some number of coins were lost but it's unknown if they were recovered. There's more if you have a look at this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=174620.0

Translated text from Finnish original added in blue in front of original text (thank you rebuilder):

.....

-The staff of the hotel had entered the sauna space on at least 3 separate occasions in the first 24 hours alone, of a sauna reservation of 59 hours length in total, despite prior agreement to the contrary, it being clearly mentioned in the daily order [that the sauna is not to be entered at will, I presume] and repeated reminders of this. Some of the entries happened when we were not guarding the sauna since we had been asked to retire to our rooms by 24:00 at the latest, although the sauna was in our uninterrupted use from thursday 10:00 to saturday 23:00. Already on friday 10.5 between 00 and 12 o'clock personal items belonging to conference participants had gone missing from the sauna. Additionally the sauna had been cleaned, so that our ability to discover the full amount of lost/stolen property immediately as the conference was still ongoing was weakened.

The main host of the conference (Pietilä) ordered an internal preliminary investigation on the matter on fri. 10.5. at approx. 18 hours. He used as personnel mainly himself and acting host ["responsible/trustee host"] Roni Blomberg, a hotel employee by the name of "Butler Charlotta" and a representative of the maintenance company, "Mikke". By approximately 8 o'clock saturday morning, the preliminary investigation led to the understanding at least 1 bitcoin worth of property had been lost (repurchase value of identifiably lost items), but private keys possibly used to store bitcoins had been copied/destroyed to a greater extent. Among other things, Pietilä's Macbook Air computer was at the sauna for the entire night, thursday-friday 9.-10.5

Our estimate of the upper bound of damages is 100000 bitcoins (market value approx. 9,1 million euro, repurchase value with immediate market operation approx. 10,2 million euro). Damages are divided in two parts, copied and lost bitcoin private keys.

For copied private keys the situation can be sorted out by transferring all the bitcoins of all the participants to different addresses, at which point we weill see, whether they have in the meantime been unrightfully spent. Finding this out must happen a soon as possible (if private keys have been saved, no financial loss will be caused, unless they are unrightfully used before the legal owner transfers them to a new, safe address). Due to the extremely strict security requirements of handling private keys required to use large amounts of bitcoins, the operation is however labour-intensive and carrying it out must be done by each participant such, that most of the work can not be delegated. For example an inventory of bitcoins of Pietilä and the companies he owns/leads requires about 16 hors of work to complete. Pietilä's own consulting fees (list price http://hopea.fi/bitcoin-kurssihistoria/) in April have varied between 600-2400 euro. This is one of the most urgent tasks, which will override most other markings in Pietilä's calendar for the week 13.-19.5.

The sum of money lost due to loss of private keys can not be reliably found out, but we believe the participants will notice if the sum rises to the thousands of bitcoins. This will be found out in about a week (a week is also our ETA for finding out the sum total of stolen bitcoins).

....

Risto Pietilä.

Now I try hard to minimize the risk to the well-being of anyone, and to raise the stakes in the game described as follows: if someone actually copied the private keys there (I had access to over 6000 bitcoins unencrypted, open in my computer browser windows during the time it was compromised), he will have to suffer the fact becoming public in its entirety + all the details, if he spends the bitcoins before I have the time to spend them myself. Due to extensive precautions involved, it will take me approximately a week of calendar time + several thousand dollars, to fully ensure that the bitcoins are safe, by sending them to uncompromised addresses. I plan to concentrate on that during this week.

Wow!!!  This is quite the story. 

To me,   the descriptive nature of the story seems to show that rpietila is capable of a considerable amount of engagement in drama, denial of responsibility and engaging in sloppy safeguarding practices... ....

Certainly, we cannot judge anyone's character based on one incident, and a lot of things happen in the day to day lives of people; however the potential of having anywhere between 6,000 and 100,000 bitcoins in jeopardy in May 2013 is quite amazing in itself. 

[magicmexican]

The bus is leaving, hop in before its too late, you will never see <500 again

[TERA]

we have a break to the up side.

I don't see it. Can you help me out?

[JayJuanGee]

It means he counted them but had no idea how many there were supposed to be 

That is a good way of putting it.  A guy who is supposedly and outward appearing to be so meticulous in his accounting does NOT know how many BTC he had.

[adamstgBit]

we have a break to the up side.

I don't see it. Can you help me out?

oh i'm much more zoomed in...

[JayJuanGee]

The whole thing is still within the bounds of "extreme incompetence is indistinguishable from malice" so that if the cleaning lady was pilfering on her own account, there needs to be no other malignant actor in the game. It sure felt paranoid at that time, because I had no reason to expect extreme incompetence (nor malice, of course) from a hotel that I had patroned for over 10 years.

As a comparison, Hotel Kämp, which is the only $2,000+ hotel in Finland, also failed in many counts, but I had no reason to expect better, so it was not suspicious, just sad. (And yes, Justin Bieber occupied the small room just next to us.)

This description just shows that Rpietila was and still seems to be incapable of accepting responsibility for his own actions.  His action relates to how many BTC he would potentially put at jeaopardy.  You gotta expect that some staff or cleaning ladies to be irresponsible and possibly even malice.. so safeguards should have been taken regarding the coins.

[TERA]

we have a break to the up side.

I don't see it. Can you help me out?

oh i'm much more zoomed in...

So the past few times everyone got destroyed was when they were zoomed in to some smaller scale chart while ignoring that they were right up on a large scale resistance, no?

[Hunyadi]

we have a break to the up side.

I don't see it. Can you help me out?

oh i'm much more zoomed in...

There won't ever be break out in her magical charts.

[seljo]

we have a break to the up side.

I don't see it. Can you help me out?

oh i'm much more zoomed in...

So the past few times everyone got destroyed was when they were zoomed in to some smaller scale chart while ignoring that they were right up on a large scale resistance, no?

When I zoom in I see what Adam was talking about.

[freebit13]

See it now?

[derpinheimer]

http://www.coindesk.com/worlds-largest-bank-icbc-latest-block-bitcoin-china/, news like this one and the price goes up!! Priceless!! 

Lmfao, Chinese are probably so confused as to why we are rallying.

[dreamspark]

Bulls be like haha no one cares about China. Moon.

Bears be like just the last pump before the single digit dump.

[TERA]

http://www.coindesk.com/worlds-largest-bank-icbc-latest-block-bitcoin-china/, news like this one and the price goes up!! Priceless!! 

Lmfao, Chinese are probably so confused as to why we are rallying.

Maybe they know very well. As someone said, it could be shorts closing before cutoff of leverage trading, or perhaps capital flight to other exchanges.

[Hen0xyd]

we have a break to the up side.

I don't see it. Can you help me out?

Sure, here it is :



(Tera: you were talking about using adequate log/normal chart but you should have used lines on this chart not parabols, don't you think ?)

The red one is 6 months main resistance, on which we bounced on 3 times, red/pink one is a recent and we are trying to escape upside.

=> I'm only saying we are trying to break some resistance trendline and some more volume is needed atm.

[freebit13]

The 3d MACD has moved into green (if only slightly) on most exchanges and the 1w is backing off... I'm quite positive.

[TERA]

I am having trouble thinking in linear after trading bitcoin for too long.