Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Raystonn]

The point is that governments will stamp out crypto, like they got rid of BSCs, if they perceive that crypto is actually going to do what it was intended to do. 

Government can never completely eliminate currencies based on decentralized consensus blockchains.  They can only make it more difficult to trade this currency for their own currency, and vice versa.  If government pushes Bitcoin into a black market currency, it will still exist.  In fact, if the war on drugs is anything to judge by, a war on Bitcoin will only make it worth more.

No. It makes me cringe every time someone says this.

It's the truth.  Please read here: http://economics.about.com/od/demand/ss/black_market.htm

[DubFX]

There is some uptrend at bitstamp, do you think other markets will follow?  

[KFR]

Trollfi still constructively and productively posting here I see.  Shouldn't you be out standing on a roof top with your hands on your hips and cape flying looking to save some innocent Brazilians from the future?

My cape is in the clothesline at the moment but, generally, yes.  

I wonder how many of these aforementioned innocent, naive and simple-minded Brazilians you've nobly saved from the perils of a profitable investment by spending most of the daylight hours of your twilight years posting about the daily price movements of something you don't even try to understand in a forum thread that none of them will ever even see.

Two and a half thousand posts in this subforum.  A couple of hundred elsewhere.  'Nuff said.  

Seriously.  Enough said.  We know what you're going to post before you post it.  Why do you even bother?  That's rhetorical of course.  

[Dragonkiller]

The point is that governments will stamp out crypto, like they got rid of BSCs, if they perceive that crypto is actually going to do what it was intended to do. 

Government can never completely eliminate currencies based on decentralized consensus blockchains.  They can only make it more difficult to trade this currency for their own currency, and vice versa.  If government pushes Bitcoin into a black market currency, it will still exist.  In fact, if the war on drugs is anything to judge by, a war on Bitcoin will only make it worth more.

No. It makes me cringe every time someone says this.

It's the truth.  Please read here: http://economics.about.com/od/demand/ss/black_market.htm

The supply of bitcoins are not reduced if they are made illegal. There will still be 21 million of them.

[JorgeStolfi]

What do you think crypto is intended to do? and by whom?

Cryptocurrencies are meant to allow payments that governments (and banks, which can be conflated with them)  cannot see, block, divert, or undo.

That is not explicit in Satoshi's paper, but seems to have been a basic assumption by most of the crypto fans, especially the most ardent ones. (Reducing credit card fees is not something that would get people that excited about, is it?).

Most cryptocoins seem to be designed and supported with that goal in mind.  Some bitcoiners are even adopting other coins because they do not see bitcoin as sufficiently robust in that regard.  Few coins, if any (Ripple perhaps? I don't  know about it)  are designed to allow the same level of control that governments now have on bank transfers.

[empowering]

I do not think there will be a war even... I think that they will figure how to leverage it for their own means... looks to me like it is being embraced...sure there are concerns... but recently russia even on the U turn, and China both stating that there is a place for crypto.... California and UK and Isle of man , all seem quite gun-ho, Switzerland neutral , there is a surprise.

By Jorge's logic the government would ban the internet.... think of the massive security threat that the internet is to the governments... and an aid in all sorts of terrorism, crime, child porn, money laundering, anti government movements, 3d printed weapons etc etc.. but basically it is not going to happen... the internet is not going to get banned, and it never was going to be , because it is technologically superior to what came before it (telephones and faxes and televisions, books) and because it is highly beneficial to society, and because the genie is out of the bottle.. it brings more good to the table than bad..   but as we know the NSA et al have their mits all over it as much as they can... at many of the on ramps and off ramps..
The government are concerned, but not concerned enough to switch off the internet.

[hyphymikey]

As FUD becomes less and less effective, manipulators will become more and more desperate. I am anxious to see what they do next to get cheap coins from panic sellers and bad traders. I suspect most of the asks are piled up by the manipulators to keep the price down, therefore there is even less liquidity of coins to buy than we think. If the manipulators removed their asks it would be pretty scary how thin it would be, and the price would probably rocket as we eat through tiny ask walls.

"Manipulator" sounds like a bad name, but they are only trying to get as many coins as they can without the price moving too much, and who can blame them for that? Its a whale eat whale world in bitcoin, so it will only work until another whale comes along and eats all the asks up.

[Tzupy]

The point is that governments will stamp out crypto, like they got rid of BSCs, if they perceive that crypto is actually going to do what it was intended to do. 

Government can never completely eliminate currencies based on decentralized consensus blockchains.  They can only make it more difficult to trade this currency for their own currency, and vice versa.  If government pushes Bitcoin into a black market currency, it will still exist.  In fact, if the war on drugs is anything to judge by, a war on Bitcoin will only make it worth more.

Governments can't fully ban cryptos, I agree, but they can do the next worst thing, cut all funding to exchanges and make common people afraid to hold cryptos.
Until now, bitcoin priced was pumped up by fiat from small investors / speculators. To reach 5k$ bitcoin needs institutional investors, and a war on bitcoin would make this impossible.
So pray that bitcoin will be tolerated by governments (especially USA and EU) in the years to come, or else say hello to double digits.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[KFR]

Cryptocurrencies are meant to allow payments that governments (and banks, which can be conflated with them)  cannot see, block, divert, or undo.

In your mind maybe.  You don't get to speak for any cryptocurrency developers.  We can speak for ourselves thanks.

That is not explicit in Satoshi's paper, but seems to have been a basic assumption by most of the crypto fans, especially the most ardent ones. (Reducing credit card fees is not something that would get people that excited about, is it?).

Most cryptocoins seem to be designed and supported with that goal in mind.  Some bitcoiners are even adopting other coins because they do not see bitcoin as sufficiently robust in that regard.  Few coins, if any (Ripple perhaps? I don't  know about it)  are designed to allow the same level of control that governments now have on bank transfers.

Bitcoiners are a broad church and you, especially you, don't get to speak for all of us.  Stop trying to paint Bitcoin as a political tool invented by political extremists.  YOU are the bloody extremist here, prof.  Bitcoin is a technology.  Like Bittorrent.  Like the Internet.  Like electricity.  Like guns.  Like fire.  Some people use it to make things; others to break and/or take things.  Some people just sit at the sidelines hurling abuse and shouting "heresy" right up to the point where they're drowned out by the sound of change inexorably passing them by.

You're not a skeptic; you're an intellectually dishonest, disingenuous shit-slinger with absolutely nothing worthwhile to contribute to this conversation.  

[Raystonn]

The point is that governments will stamp out crypto, like they got rid of BSCs, if they perceive that crypto is actually going to do what it was intended to do.  

Government can never completely eliminate currencies based on decentralized consensus blockchains.  They can only make it more difficult to trade this currency for their own currency, and vice versa.  If government pushes Bitcoin into a black market currency, it will still exist.  In fact, if the war on drugs is anything to judge by, a war on Bitcoin will only make it worth more.

No. It makes me cringe every time someone says this.

It's the truth.  Please read here: http://economics.about.com/od/demand/ss/black_market.htm

The supply of bitcoins are not reduced if they are made illegal. There will still be 21 million of them.

No.  The supply of Bitcoins being sold for USD would be greatly reduced.  That would be the effect of any legislation criminalizing Bitcoin in the United States.  Converting Bitcoin into USD would suddenly make that seller a criminal.  This would make it much more difficult to buy Bitcoin, thus resulting in an increased BTC/USD price.  Most centralized exchanges for BTC/USD would be shut down.

[KFR]

BTW, <110 weeks until block reward halves.

Scarcity

[Dragonkiller]

The point is that governments will stamp out crypto, like they got rid of BSCs, if they perceive that crypto is actually going to do what it was intended to do.  

Government can never completely eliminate currencies based on decentralized consensus blockchains.  They can only make it more difficult to trade this currency for their own currency, and vice versa.  If government pushes Bitcoin into a black market currency, it will still exist.  In fact, if the war on drugs is anything to judge by, a war on Bitcoin will only make it worth more.

No. It makes me cringe every time someone says this.

It's the truth.  Please read here: http://economics.about.com/od/demand/ss/black_market.htm

The supply of bitcoins are not reduced if they are made illegal. There will still be 21 million of them.

No.  The supply of Bitcoins being sold for USD will be greatly reduced.  That would be the effect of any legislation criminalizing Bitcoin in the United States.  Converting Bitcoin into USD will suddenly make that seller a criminal.  This will make it much more difficult to buy Bitcoin, thus resulting in an increased BTC/USD price.  Most exchanges for BTC/USD will be shut down.

Mining would become easier.

You're missing the main point anyway - the utility of illegal drugs are not affected by their legal status. The utility of BTC is greatly reduced if it is made illegal. And what's the "intrinsic" value of BTC in the first place? Its utility.

[Raystonn]

The point is that governments will stamp out crypto, like they got rid of BSCs, if they perceive that crypto is actually going to do what it was intended to do. 

Government can never completely eliminate currencies based on decentralized consensus blockchains.  They can only make it more difficult to trade this currency for their own currency, and vice versa.  If government pushes Bitcoin into a black market currency, it will still exist.  In fact, if the war on drugs is anything to judge by, a war on Bitcoin will only make it worth more.

No. It makes me cringe every time someone says this.

It's the truth.  Please read here: http://economics.about.com/od/demand/ss/black_market.htm

The supply of bitcoins are not reduced if they are made illegal. There will still be 21 million of them.

No.  The supply of Bitcoins being sold for USD will be greatly reduced.  That would be the effect of any legislation criminalizing Bitcoin in the United States.  Converting Bitcoin into USD will suddenly make that seller a criminal.  This will make it much more difficult to buy Bitcoin, thus resulting in an increased BTC/USD price.  Most exchanges for BTC/USD will be shut down.

Mining would become easier.

You're missing the main point anyway - the utility of illegal drugs are not affected by their legal status. The utility of BTC is greatly reduced if it is made illegal. And what's the "intrinsic" value of BTC in the first place? Its utility.

No.  Bitcoin's utility as a store of value would not be affected.  Only its use as a currency would be affected.  The use as a store of value is what most directly translates into its exchange price today.

[KFR]

Utility + scarcity.

[Spaceman_Spiff]

You're missing the main point anyway - the utility of illegal drugs are not affected by their legal status. The utility of BTC is greatly reduced if it is made illegal. And what's the "intrinsic" value of BTC in the first place? Its utility.

No.  Bitcoin's utility as a store of value would not be affected.  Only its use as a currency would be affected.  The use as a store of value is what most directly translates into its exchange price today.

I think it would.  I am less likely to keep my purchasing power in a store of value that is very tricky to spend when I want to make a purchase.

[Dragonkiller]

The point is that governments will stamp out crypto, like they got rid of BSCs, if they perceive that crypto is actually going to do what it was intended to do. 

Government can never completely eliminate currencies based on decentralized consensus blockchains.  They can only make it more difficult to trade this currency for their own currency, and vice versa.  If government pushes Bitcoin into a black market currency, it will still exist.  In fact, if the war on drugs is anything to judge by, a war on Bitcoin will only make it worth more.

No. It makes me cringe every time someone says this.

It's the truth.  Please read here: http://economics.about.com/od/demand/ss/black_market.htm

The supply of bitcoins are not reduced if they are made illegal. There will still be 21 million of them.

No.  The supply of Bitcoins being sold for USD will be greatly reduced.  That would be the effect of any legislation criminalizing Bitcoin in the United States.  Converting Bitcoin into USD will suddenly make that seller a criminal.  This will make it much more difficult to buy Bitcoin, thus resulting in an increased BTC/USD price.  Most exchanges for BTC/USD will be shut down.

Mining would become easier.

You're missing the main point anyway - the utility of illegal drugs are not affected by their legal status. The utility of BTC is greatly reduced if it is made illegal. And what's the "intrinsic" value of BTC in the first place? Its utility.

No.  Bitcoin's utility as a store of value would not be affected.  Only its use as a currency would be affected.  The use as a store of value is what most directly translates into its exchange price today.

What are you going to do with your now illegal BTC?

[empowering]

What do you think crypto is intended to do? and by whom?

Cryptocurrencies are meant to allow payments that governments (and banks, which can be conflated with them)  cannot see, block, divert, or undo.

That is not explicit in Satoshi's paper, but seems to have been a basic assumption by most of the crypto fans, especially the most ardent ones. (Reducing credit card fees is not something that would get people that excited about, is it?).

Most cryptocoins seem to be designed and supported with that goal in mind.  Some bitcoiners are even adopting other coins because they do not see bitcoin as sufficiently robust in that regard.  Few coins, if any (Ripple perhaps? I don't  know about it)  are designed to allow the same level of control that governments now have on bank transfers.

facepalm...

you walked straight into that one.



 

[Raystonn]

The point is that governments will stamp out crypto, like they got rid of BSCs, if they perceive that crypto is actually going to do what it was intended to do. 

Government can never completely eliminate currencies based on decentralized consensus blockchains.  They can only make it more difficult to trade this currency for their own currency, and vice versa.  If government pushes Bitcoin into a black market currency, it will still exist.  In fact, if the war on drugs is anything to judge by, a war on Bitcoin will only make it worth more.

No. It makes me cringe every time someone says this.

It's the truth.  Please read here: http://economics.about.com/od/demand/ss/black_market.htm

The supply of bitcoins are not reduced if they are made illegal. There will still be 21 million of them.

No.  The supply of Bitcoins being sold for USD will be greatly reduced.  That would be the effect of any legislation criminalizing Bitcoin in the United States.  Converting Bitcoin into USD will suddenly make that seller a criminal.  This will make it much more difficult to buy Bitcoin, thus resulting in an increased BTC/USD price.  Most exchanges for BTC/USD will be shut down.

Mining would become easier.

You're missing the main point anyway - the utility of illegal drugs are not affected by their legal status. The utility of BTC is greatly reduced if it is made illegal. And what's the "intrinsic" value of BTC in the first place? Its utility.

No.  Bitcoin's utility as a store of value would not be affected.  Only its use as a currency would be affected.  The use as a store of value is what most directly translates into its exchange price today.

What are you going to do with your now illegal BTC?

Again, BTC wouldn't be illegal.  Converting to USD would be illegal.  You could sell for other currencies in countries not hostile to Bitcoin.  If somehow all the countries of the world were to criminalize exchanges between Bitcoin and their currencies (very big stretch here), there would always be a market between Bitcoin and Gold, or anything else with actual value.

[Torque]

The point is that governments will stamp out crypto, like they got rid of BSCs, if they perceive that crypto is actually going to do what it was intended to do.  

Government can never completely eliminate currencies based on decentralized consensus blockchains.  They can only make it more difficult to trade this currency for their own currency, and vice versa.  If government pushes Bitcoin into a black market currency, it will still exist.  In fact, if the war on drugs is anything to judge by, a war on Bitcoin will only make it worth more.

No. It makes me cringe every time someone says this.

It's the truth.  Please read here: http://economics.about.com/od/demand/ss/black_market.htm

The supply of bitcoins are not reduced if they are made illegal. There will still be 21 million of them.

No.  The supply of Bitcoins being sold for USD will be greatly reduced.  That would be the effect of any legislation criminalizing Bitcoin in the United States.  Converting Bitcoin into USD will suddenly make that seller a criminal.  This will make it much more difficult to buy Bitcoin, thus resulting in an increased BTC/USD price.  Most exchanges for BTC/USD will be shut down.

Mining would become easier.

You're missing the main point anyway - the utility of illegal drugs are not affected by their legal status. The utility of BTC is greatly reduced if it is made illegal. And what's the "intrinsic" value of BTC in the first place? Its utility.

No.  Bitcoin's utility as a store of value would not be affected.  Only its use as a currency would be affected.  The use as a store of value is what most directly translates into its exchange price today.

What are you going to do with your now illegal BTC?

Again, BTC wouldn't be illegal.  Converting to USD would be illegal.  You could sell for other currencies in countries not hostile to Bitcoin.  If somehow all the countries of the world were to criminalize exchanges between Bitcoin and their currencies (very big stretch here), there would always be a market between Bitcoin and Gold, or anything else with actual value.

THIS +1M.  Not to mention, LocalBitcoins type of face-to-face money or barter/value exchange will be around in some form or another in the grey/black market forever.
/debate