Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Richy_T]

I don't care what they taught you in school but a value of a thing is what it can be exchanged for (which in our age is compared to the currency we use)...the price is defined by supply and demand.

That is the *price*. Value is subjective. A photograph of my grandmother would have more value to me than to you. When people value things differently, they may exchange things in something we call "trade" with a net increase in value to both. This is the foundation of a free market.

[Richy_T]

old coins are coming out of the closet?

gaycoin is over.

On a more serious note, by offering definitions of distinct concepts of utility, value, and price, I was hoping to provide clarity.  Value, in particular, being rather abstract, tends to be used in especially diverse ways.  mmitech (who was quoted above, from behind the wall of ignore) infers a useful point:  Exchange value is one of the diverse ways in which the word "value" is used.  I offered a definition of "value" which was intended to add clarity by being technically accurate, a term of the monetary art, but it can't hope to do justice to the range of ordinary English language.  Perhaps the best way to add clarity in ordinary language is with modifiers, as e.g. "exchange value", "relative value", "functional value", and "monetary value".

You were correct in your statements. There is an old saying, "He knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." They are two distinct concepts.

Man, my *third* strike on being behind the curve this morning :/

[johnwest]

Market price again trying to take support around 560.
It's good let's move again to 590-600.

[empowering]

Nothing to do with school, I am just surprised we are back here again.


ok ... so do you have a wife or children?  I usually do this with hand drawn pictures as the example but today I think fingers suit better...

So say you have a wife and children ? How valuable to you (and them) are their fingers?  to me they are WORTH nothing...  and the PRICE I give you for them
on the open market is $0

Lets switch this around- do your wife and childrens fingers have any VALUE to you? if so how much are they WORTH to you? and what PRICE will you pay to keep them all in one place with fingers attached to loved ones? more than my PRICE of $0? I bet and why is that? it is because they have more VALUE to you then they do to me, for me the PRICE  for your loved ones fingers is $0 for you I imagine and hope a very large figure lets say $100,000 or more


something something <snip>

look above, I did read to the end of that line and there you lost me.... a value of thing is not determined by my self only, it is determined by a whole community, if we think that the value (call it price if you want) of 1 Liter of milk is worth 1$ but then one farmer based on the miracle of grass and water going into the cow and turning out as milk and shit and pee think that that liter of milk is worth at least $1000, that farmer is going to have some bad time selling his shit. but if 40% of farmers think so then there is 40% of greedy motherfuckers.

we can go on and on trying to define this (I am wrong with the possibility of being right), but I personally am not buying that theory, wherever I go I pay €€ as a value of a thing. the value translate to that €€ and I didn't see yet in my life a community agrees on something having more value but lower price!!! in fact that just doesn't make any sense to me.

  

I agree to an extent- and I was reducing to the absurd to make a point...  Also I should have said your loved ones fingers were WORTH nothing to me not the PRICE was nothing to me... price is price and value is subjective. PRICE and VALUE do have a linkage - not saying they do not, but they ARE DIFFERENT.

....and yes when you broaden it out of course the community plays a part - but as I said I reduced to the absurd, so in the fingers example you did represent the entire community....... but my point remains...  PRICE and VALUE and WORTH are different things no matter how you dice it up BUT they are all interlinked and interlinked with SUPPLY AND DEMAND... but interlinked as they may be they are still different things....

Price and value affect each other however price and value are not the same thing.. there is also supply relationship and demand relationship and market equilibrium (competition) to take into account fair enough...

And yes sometimes society does place a lower agreed price on something with a higher value to society- for example society as a whole places more VALUE on water than they do on mobile phones, but water is cheaper than mobile phones...even cheap crappy ones (and no it makes no difference that your mobile phone company gave you your phone for free)   Water is more valuable than mobile phones to society an everyone knows this (indeed we need water to make mobile phones) and at the moment mobile phones have a higher price than water...but if at anypoint water became scarce (i.e supply dries up) then water will be in higher demand, with less supply, and somewhere where equilibrium is reached the market will agree upon PRICE.  Same with phones- less supply, higher demand, and the price will increase... but water still has more VALUE to the collective than mobile phones.

Even though subjective and collective VALUE of water is agreed by all to be very high (regardless of supply and demand) however its PRICE will be lower or higher depending on the supply and demand.  


Also if I want to dig a hole, to dig for water say... to survive, then I may pay the price of $15 to one manufacturer of shovels, or I may get a better deal and pay $10
from a different supplier... however the reason I place any VALUE on the shovel, is because I need the HOLE... the VALUE is not in the shovel itself, but it is in the HOLE it can dig...   of course I will buy the same shovel from the person selling it for the cheapest price...  

.....but say there was a shovel shortage, and  shovel prices went up... all of a sudden the PRICE of a shovel is $200 or $250 from their competitor... the quesiton now is... how much is the HOLE worth to me? is it worth the $200 PRICE of the SHOVEL? if the answer is no, then I am NOT paying that PRICE for that shovel because the HOLE is not worth $200, the shovel simply does not jusify the PRICE because the VALUE of the shovel is in the HOLE and as I can for example pay my neighour $50 to take water from his stream for the year... therefore I am not going to pay the price of $200-250 for a shovel, because the PRICE of the shovel really did not matter... what mattered was the value I placed in theshovel, because I needed to dig a HOLE with it, that is the only reason the shovel had any VALUE to me... in this case if the PRICE exceeded the VALUE I get for the shovel,  then I would not pay that PRICE...because the PRICE was higher than the VALUE to me.

 However if my neighour placed a price on using his stream at $500 for the year, then all of a sudden maybe I would have placed a higher VALUE on the shovel beause the value of the shovel is really the value of the the HOLE I NEED TO DIG  in that case I would pay the shovel salesman his $200 , and dug my hole ,
in this case the VALUE exceeds the PRICE and the shovel salesman gets his $200-$250. However the PRICE of the shovel only comes into play if it exceeds the VALUE that the shovel represents.. it could be $10, $50 or $500 - it all depends on the utility of the shovel to me.

So if VALUE and PRICE can swap places like this... does it not stand to reason that they are NOT the same thing?


Maybe Aminorex is right however in that we may be arguing semantics here...

Talking of digging holes...
 

[Sandia]

I put in bids at 551, 530, 510, and 490.

I am perma-bull, but I don't believe the walls at Bitstamp will survive the next 12 hours. If people want to sell cheap, I will buy their coins, even if I would rather see a rally.

[empowering]

Sigmund Freud may have said it, but it was originally spoken by Mr. Carl Sagan.

Sigmund Freud
Born: May 6, 1856, Příbor, Czech Republic
Died: September 23, 1939, London, United Kingdom

Carl Sagan
Born: November 9, 1934, Brooklyn, NY
Died: December 20, 1996, Seattle, WA

So unlikely to be the case. Likely it's apocryphal but I always heard it attributed to Einstein.

As Richt has me on ignore... please inform him it was neither Sagan, or Freud and certainly not Einstein or Franklin that said it nor Ms Rae Brown.... came from
a NA booklet in 1979.

thank you.

: )

(edit - ah...)

[mmitech]

Nothing to do with school, I am just surprised we are back here again.


ok ... so do you have a wife or children?  I usually do this with hand drawn pictures as the example but today I think fingers suit better...

So say you have a wife and children ? How valuable to you (and them) are their fingers?  to me they are WORTH nothing...  and the PRICE I give you for them
on the open market is $0

Lets switch this around- do your wife and childrens fingers have any VALUE to you? if so how much are they WORTH to you? and what PRICE will you pay to keep them all in one place with fingers attached to loved ones? more than my PRICE of $0? I bet and why is that? it is because they have more VALUE to you then they do to me, for me the PRICE  for your loved ones fingers is $0 for you I imagine and hope a very large figure lets say $100,000 or more


something something <snip>

look above, I did read to the end of that line and there you lost me.... a value of thing is not determined by my self only, it is determined by a whole community, if we think that the value (call it price if you want) of 1 Liter of milk is worth 1$ but then one farmer based on the miracle of grass and water going into the cow and turning out as milk and shit and pee think that that liter of milk is worth at least $1000, that farmer is going to have some bad time selling his shit. but if 40% of farmers think so then there is 40% of greedy motherfuckers.

we can go on and on trying to define this (I am wrong with the possibility of being right), but I personally am not buying that theory, wherever I go I pay €€ as a value of a thing. the value translate to that €€ and I didn't see yet in my life a community agrees on something having more value but lower price!!! in fact that just doesn't make any sense to me.

  

I agree to an extent- and I was reducing to the absurd to make a point...  Also I should have said your loved ones fingers were WORTH nothing to me not the PRICE was nothing to me... price is price and value is subjective. PRICE and VALUE do have a linkage - not saying they do not, but they ARE DIFFERENT.

....and yes when you broaden it out of course the community plays a part - but as I said I reduced to the absurd, so in the fingers example you did represent the entire community....... but my point remains...  PRICE and VALUE and WORTH are different things no matter how you dice it up BUT they are all interlinked and interlinked with SUPPLY AND DEMAND... but interlinked as they may be they are still different things....

Price and value affect each other however price and value are not the same thing.. there is also supply relationship and demand relationship and market equilibrium (competition) to take into account fair enough...

And yes sometimes society does place a lower agreed price on something with a higher value to society- for example society as a whole places more VALUE on water than they do on mobile phones, but water is cheaper than mobile phones...even cheap crappy ones (and no it makes no difference that your mobile phone company gave you your phone for free)   Water is more valuable than mobile phones to society an everyone knows this (indeed we need water to make mobile phones) and at the moment mobile phones have a higher price than water...but if at anypoint water became scarce (i.e supply dries up) then water will be in higher demand, with less supply, and somewhere where equilibrium is reached the market will agree upon PRICE.  Same with phones- less supply, higher demand, and the price will increase... but water still has more VALUE to the collective than mobile phones.

Even though subjective and collective VALUE of water is agreed by all to be very high (regardless of supply and demand) however its PRICE will be lower or higher depending on the supply and demand.  


Also if I want to dig a hole, to dig for water say... to survive, then I may pay the price of $15 to one manufacturer of shovels, or I may get a better deal and pay $10
from a different supplier... however the reason I place any VALUE on the shovel, is because I need the HOLE... the VALUE is not in the shovel itself, but it is in the HOLE it can dig...   of course I will buy the same shovel from the person selling it for the cheapest price...  

.....but say there was a shovel shortage, and  shovel prices went up... all of a sudden the PRICE of a shovel is $200 or $250 from their competitor... the quesiton now is... how much is the HOLE worth to me? is it worth the $200 PRICE of the SHOVEL? if the answer is no, then I am NOT paying that PRICE for that shovel because the HOLE is not worth $200, the shovel simply does not jusify the PRICE because the VALUE of the shovel is in the HOLE and as I can for example pay my neighour $50 to take water from his stream for the year... therefore I am not going to pay the price of $200-250 for a shovel, because the PRICE of the shovel really did not matter... what mattered was the value I placed in theshovel, because I needed to dig a HOLE with it, that is the only reason the shovel had any VALUE to me... in this case if the PRICE exceeded the VALUE I get for the shovel,  then I would not pay that PRICE...because the PRICE was higher than the VALUE to me.

 However if my neighour placed a price on using his stream at $500 for the year, then all of a sudden maybe I would have placed a higher VALUE on the shovel beause the value of the shovel is really the value of the the HOLE I NEED TO DIG  in that case I would pay the shovel salesman his $200 , and dug my hole ,
in this case the VALUE exceeds the PRICE and the shovel salesman gets his $200-$250. However the PRICE of the shovel only comes into play if it exceeds the VALUE that the shovel represents.. it could be $10, $50 or $500 - it all depends on the utility of the shovel to me.

So if VALUE and PRICE can swap places like this... does it not stand to reason that they are NOT the same thing?


Maybe Aminorex is right however in that we may be arguing semantics here...

Talking of digging holes...
 

now I get what you are trying to address, but I don't know how is Bitcoin more valuable than the price it translates to today.... and I don't know how all the millions pushed from VCs into Bitcoin and the ETFs and regulation and....made it more valuable, I didn't see any additional use from these companies that got that shitload of money, in fact Coinbase and Bitpay and Bitstamp and... all existed and were doing what they are doing today, and ETFs are somehow a way to unload the hundred thousands of coins bought from $0.10-100, just look at this thin order book and everything will be crystal clear.


all I see around, is early adopters who had thousands of coins who became rich overnight and become a greedy bastards that have no idea about investing and are wasting money all around silly projects and products thinking they've got it all figured out, these project aren't adding any real value, and 70% of these businesses created because of bitcoin, doesn't make any sense and I cant see any real use of them (speaking as a bitcoin user), in fact I see more gambling sites, mixing services and fraud schemes and scams than I saw first time I knew about Bitcoin 2 years ago, where do you see the value here ?

as a technology Bitcoin was meant(or supposed to be) for the poor, the unbanked, and the over banked, but the biggest use of bitcoin today is speculation (more than ever) and becoming rich, everyone tells you how will you become a millionaire if you hold, no one tells you how can we make it simple to help people in Africa. (I am one of them to be honest)

how much value is in that ?

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[adamstgBit]

Nothing to do with school, I am just surprised we are back here again.


ok ... so do you have a wife or children?  I usually do this with hand drawn pictures as the example but today I think fingers suit better...

So say you have a wife and children ? How valuable to you (and them) are their fingers?  to me they are WORTH nothing...  and the PRICE I give you for them
on the open market is $0

Lets switch this around- do your wife and childrens fingers have any VALUE to you? if so how much are they WORTH to you? and what PRICE will you pay to keep them all in one place with fingers attached to loved ones? more than my PRICE of $0? I bet and why is that? it is because they have more VALUE to you then they do to me, for me the PRICE  for your loved ones fingers is $0 for you I imagine and hope a very large figure lets say $100,000 or more


something something <snip>

look above, I did read to the end of that line and there you lost me.... a value of thing is not determined by my self only, it is determined by a whole community, if we think that the value (call it price if you want) of 1 Liter of milk is worth 1$ but then one farmer based on the miracle of grass and water going into the cow and turning out as milk and shit and pee think that that liter of milk is worth at least $1000, that farmer is going to have some bad time selling his shit. but if 40% of farmers think so then there is 40% of greedy motherfuckers.

we can go on and on trying to define this (I am wrong with the possibility of being right), but I personally am not buying that theory, wherever I go I pay €€ as a value of a thing. the value translate to that €€ and I didn't see yet in my life a community agrees on something having more value but lower price!!! in fact that just doesn't make any sense to me.

  

I agree to an extent- and I was reducing to the absurd to make a point...  Also I should have said your loved ones fingers were WORTH nothing to me not the PRICE was nothing to me... price is price and value is subjective. PRICE and VALUE do have a linkage - not saying they do not, but they ARE DIFFERENT.

....and yes when you broaden it out of course the community plays a part - but as I said I reduced to the absurd, so in the fingers example you did represent the entire community....... but my point remains...  PRICE and VALUE and WORTH are different things no matter how you dice it up BUT they are all interlinked and interlinked with SUPPLY AND DEMAND... but interlinked as they may be they are still different things....

Price and value affect each other however price and value are not the same thing.. there is also supply relationship and demand relationship and market equilibrium (competition) to take into account fair enough...

And yes sometimes society does place a lower agreed price on something with a higher value to society- for example society as a whole places more VALUE on water than they do on mobile phones, but water is cheaper than mobile phones...even cheap crappy ones (and no it makes no difference that your mobile phone company gave you your phone for free)   Water is more valuable than mobile phones to society an everyone knows this (indeed we need water to make mobile phones) and at the moment mobile phones have a higher price than water...but if at anypoint water became scarce (i.e supply dries up) then water will be in higher demand, with less supply, and somewhere where equilibrium is reached the market will agree upon PRICE.  Same with phones- less supply, higher demand, and the price will increase... but water still has more VALUE to the collective than mobile phones.

Even though subjective and collective VALUE of water is agreed by all to be very high (regardless of supply and demand) however its PRICE will be lower or higher depending on the supply and demand.  


Also if I want to dig a hole, to dig for water say... to survive, then I may pay the price of $15 to one manufacturer of shovels, or I may get a better deal and pay $10
from a different supplier... however the reason I place any VALUE on the shovel, is because I need the HOLE... the VALUE is not in the shovel itself, but it is in the HOLE it can dig...   of course I will buy the same shovel from the person selling it for the cheapest price...  

.....but say there was a shovel shortage, and  shovel prices went up... all of a sudden the PRICE of a shovel is $200 or $250 from their competitor... the quesiton now is... how much is the HOLE worth to me? is it worth the $200 PRICE of the SHOVEL? if the answer is no, then I am NOT paying that PRICE for that shovel because the HOLE is not worth $200, the shovel simply does not jusify the PRICE because the VALUE of the shovel is in the HOLE and as I can for example pay my neighour $50 to take water from his stream for the year... therefore I am not going to pay the price of $200-250 for a shovel, because the PRICE of the shovel really did not matter... what mattered was the value I placed in theshovel, because I needed to dig a HOLE with it, that is the only reason the shovel had any VALUE to me... in this case if the PRICE exceeded the VALUE I get for the shovel,  then I would not pay that PRICE...because the PRICE was higher than the VALUE to me.

 However if my neighour placed a price on using his stream at $500 for the year, then all of a sudden maybe I would have placed a higher VALUE on the shovel beause the value of the shovel is really the value of the the HOLE I NEED TO DIG  in that case I would pay the shovel salesman his $200 , and dug my hole ,
in this case the VALUE exceeds the PRICE and the shovel salesman gets his $200-$250. However the PRICE of the shovel only comes into play if it exceeds the VALUE that the shovel represents.. it could be $10, $50 or $500 - it all depends on the utility of the shovel to me.

So if VALUE and PRICE can swap places like this... does it not stand to reason that they are NOT the same thing?


Maybe Aminorex is right however in that we may be arguing semantics here...

Talking of digging holes...
 

now I get what you are trying to address, but I don't know how is Bitcoin more valuable than the price it translates to today.... and I don't know how all the millions pushed from VCs into Bitcoin and the ETFs and regulation and....made it more valuable, I didn't see any additional use from these companies that got that shitload of money, in fact Coinbase and Bitpay and Bitstamp and... all existed and were doing what they are doing today, and STFs are somehow a way to unload the hundred thousands of coins bought from $0.10-100, just look at this thin order book and everything will be crystal clear.


all I see around, is early adopters who had thousands of coins who became rich overnight and become a greedy bastards that have no idea about investing and are wasting money all around silly projects and products thinking they've got it all figured out, this project arent adding any real value, and 70% of these businesses created because of bitcoin doesn't make any sense and I cant see any real use of them (speaking as a bitcoin user), in fact I see more gambling sites, mixing services and fraud schemes and scams than I saw first time I knew about Bitcoin 2 years ago, where do you see the value here ?

as a technology Bitcoin was meant(or supposed to be) for the poor, the unbanked, and the over banked, but the biggest use of bitcoin today is speculation (more than ever) and becoming rich, everyone tells you how will you become a millionaire if you hold, no one tells you how can we make it simple to help people in Africa. (I am one of them to be honest)

how much value is in that ?

there is gr8 value in bitcoin, speculate on that.

[romneymoney]

It's a whole lot easier, cheaper, and faster to paste some code from a casino and integrate a BTC wallet than it is to convince un-banked Africans to convert their tiny amount of FIAT to start using Bitcoin.  However the latter has the potential for explosive growth once if it can reach some critical mass due to the real benefits it's users will gain.  A difficult project that requires significant capital and time requires a different kind of investor and timeline.  I think we see so many shady projects like that now because it's what people have been able to complete and release successfully so far.  The more ambitious things take longer and haven't occurred yet.

[iram3130]

I put in bids at 551, 530, 510, and 490.

I am perma-bull, but I don't believe the walls at Bitstamp will survive the next 12 hours. If people want to sell cheap, I will buy their coins, even if I would rather see a rally.

May be 551 bid hit but I do not think other will hit and you will buy those lower level.
Try to buy around 550 that level is really good for buying.

[empowering]

how much value is in that ?

Short answer...  the value is subjective... the uses of and utility are being discovered and along with it the value and down the line the price.

I hear what you are saying... but time is the key here... the uses of and the utility of BTC is only just being explored and discovered and invested in ...
I must admit that the providing services to the unbanked is in my opinion one of the greatest areas of interest to me by far...  and I am actually exploring this avenue and one or two others with several partners/investors myself. However I also have speculated on BTC but it is far from my only interest

Patience is the key here... and also active participation.

I do not have all of the answers and I do not claim that I do... however I do think that the ecosystem is evolving.. and the value that can be added to society is being explored as we speak... and it is being explored by people with profit in mind no doubt... which is a handy motivator... but also I would think not the only motive..

There is no denying in my opinion that progress has been made in the past five years, and even more so in the past two and even more so in the past 6 months..
so now there remains to be seen what progress will be made in the next 6 months, next year , next two years... 

Yep there are speculators, and yes there may be rational and irrational exuberance involved but I do not feel this means that all is lost...  in fact I believe that we
need to go through the stages we are at now to be able to continue to grow...

I for one am happy to state that on long timeframe I am more conifdent than ever that BTC will continue to grow and grow, and I for one am more bullish pricewise than ever.

 

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[Habeler876]

Is it bounce time? Seems we're forming a bit of a rounded bottom here. Don't know if this down trend is over, but maybe we can take a breather and see some up for a bit.....

[medialab101]

Rakuten coming on board:
http://www.coindesk.com/rakuten-us-subsidiary-bitcoin/

[oda.krell]

With Metcalfe's law, bitcoin is indeed quite promising, as the users have been increasing and are expected to increase further.
This means the value of bitcoin is increasing. Could this argument be valid?

We do not know whether the number of "bitcoin users" is increasing.

The sources that I know (such as blockchan.info) do not give that information.  They give some quantities (such as wallet software downloads, transactions per day, total BTC volume per day) from which some people claim to be able to derive the number of users.  However, those quantities include an unknown amount of operations that do not imply real additional use.  Some of them (like total BTC volume) have been relatively constant for the last 6 months.  Moreover, there is no information at all about people who stopped "using" bitcoin, e.g. after buying a bit just for curiosity.

Yes, we actually do.

blockchain.info stats aren't the only source saying so. Online wallet stats, number of vendors accepting Bitcoin... there's plenty of evidence of growth well above linear increase (cue: "doesn't mean it's long-term exponential").

Your argument runs down to: but all those stats could be faked/manipulated by entities high enough in the decision chain of exchanges or websites. While theoretically possible, you have to ask yourself it is the most likely explanation of the data.

There's plenty of fraud and deception in the Bitcoin ecosystem, but what you seem to have in mind is a level of organized deception that you cannot simply "claim" to be the reason for the data. If you have solid proof for it, let us know. Otherwise, I could dismiss anthropogenic global warming by claiming that measuring stations world wide were manipulated by Jewish space lizards -- it's a possibility, y'know.

tl;dr The most likely reason to generate data indicating exponential growth in usage is actual usage. Claiming otherwise requires evidence, which I have yet to see.

[Jesus Christ]

Rakuten coming on board:
http://www.coindesk.com/rakuten-us-subsidiary-bitcoin/

Doesn't matter, I'm selling now. Time to get out fellas.

[AceWallen]

Rakuten coming on board:
http://www.coindesk.com/rakuten-us-subsidiary-bitcoin/

always good to see more merchants on board, especially in e-commerce. unfortunately, they are peanuts compared to Dell, and smaller yet than some of the giants we hope to attract someday.

[findftp]

Rakuten coming on board:
http://www.coindesk.com/rakuten-us-subsidiary-bitcoin/

Doesn't matter, I'm selling now. Time to get out fellas.

Can I have your jezus coins?

[empowering]

Rakuten coming on board:
http://www.coindesk.com/rakuten-us-subsidiary-bitcoin/

Doesn't matter, I'm selling now. Time to get out fellas.

Buy buy.... do not let the door hit you on the way out : )