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Question: Price Target for Nov. 30, 2024:
<$75K - 1 (2.7%)
$75K to $80K - 1 (2.7%)
$80K to $85K - 0 (0%)
$85K to $90K - 7 (18.9%)
$90K to $95K - 12 (32.4%)
$95K to $100K - 4 (10.8%)
>$100K - 12 (32.4%)
Total Voters: 37

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26492172 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
aminorex
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December 10, 2014, 11:13:12 PM

...backed by gold...

Similarly, chickens.
solex
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December 10, 2014, 11:16:49 PM

@jonoiv
Gold has nothing to do with this, and FYI fiat isn't backed by gold or any tangible assets since 40 years. Some currencies are 'defended' by a certain amount of gold in currencies wars, but that is the extend of it 'backing' anything these days.

It's backed by the ability to prove a debt can be ultimately paid in gold as assumed by the credit agencies.  

Currency is backed by assets, at least my currency is (GBP).  our QE was backed by the purchase of assets.  When called to pay debts they are settled in gold.

Don't be silly. The small amount of assets that central banks have is nothing compared to the fiat they print. Most assets in central banks are leveraged at 30-40:1 (and usually by shitty assets), and the leverages are going up little by little.

Correct. The Federal Reserve even had to change its accounting rules 4 years ago to prevent it going "technically" bankrupt
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/creative-accounting-makes-fed-insolvency-impossible
jonoiv
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December 10, 2014, 11:17:02 PM

@jonoiv
Gold has nothing to do with this, and FYI fiat isn't backed by gold or any tangible assets since 40 years. Some currencies are 'defended' by a certain amount of gold in currencies wars, but that is the extend of it 'backing' anything these days.

It's backed by the ability to prove a debt can be ultimately paid in gold as assumed by the credit agencies.  

Currency is backed by assets, at least my currency is (GBP).  our QE was backed by the purchase of assets.  When called to pay debts they are settled in gold.

Don't be silly. The small amount of assets that central banks have is nothing compared to the fiat they print. Most assets in central banks are leveraged at 30-40:1 (and usually by shitty assets), and the leverages are going up little by little. Only the IMF has a small leverage of about 3:1 and we dont use SDR's in personal settlements.

Fiat has nothing to do with paying a debt back in gold and IF a country were to go bankrupt, gold would be the 1 thing that the country tries to keep. Can a debt be paid in gold? --sure, but there is absolutely nothing that implies that if a country defaults that it will pay its debts in gold or that it even retains enough gold to cover its debts.

As far as QE goes, the purpose of it is usually to buy bad assets that are tanking the market and then injecting new currency in exchange for those bad assets.

This is an approximation
Total circulated fiat in the UK is £90b, and the BOE has 4600 tons left.  So circulated notes and coins are only roughly 30% of gold assets.  I realise there is much more fiat stored as ledgers and not in circulation.  

In short in not saying Fiat is pegged to gold, I'm saying it's backed by the ability to settle a debt with gold should it be called on.
criptix
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December 10, 2014, 11:24:07 PM

@jonoiv
Gold has nothing to do with this, and FYI fiat isn't backed by gold or any tangible assets since 40 years. Some currencies are 'defended' by a certain amount of gold in currencies wars, but that is the extend of it 'backing' anything these days.

It's backed by the ability to prove a debt can be ultimately paid in gold as assumed by the credit agencies.  

Currency is backed by assets, at least my currency is (GBP).  our QE was backed by the purchase of assets.  When called to pay debts they are settled in gold.

Don't be silly. The small amount of assets that central banks have is nothing compared to the fiat they print. Most assets in central banks are leveraged at 30-40:1 (and usually by shitty assets), and the leverages are going up little by little. Only the IMF has a small leverage of about 3:1 and we dont use SDR's in personal settlements.

Fiat has nothing to do with paying a debt back in gold and IF a country were to go bankrupt, gold would be the 1 thing that the country tries to keep. Can a debt be paid in gold? --sure, but there is absolutely nothing that implies that if a country defaults that it will pay its debts in gold or that it even retains enough gold to cover its debts.

As far as QE goes, the purpose of it is usually to buy bad assets that are tanking the market and then injecting new currency in exchange for those bad assets.

This is an approximation
Total circulated fiat in the UK is £90b, and the BOE has 4600 tons left.  So circulated notes and coins are only roughly 30% of gold assets.  I realise there is much more fiat stored as ledgers and not in circulation.  

In short in not saying Fiat is pegged to gold, I'm saying it's backed by the ability to settle a debt with gold should it be called on.

from 2012 though
Quote
In the UK, the government’s Exchange Equalisation Account shows 9,971,000 troy ounces of gold on the books. At today’s market value (1,054 British pounds) and the Bank of England’s most recent statement on reserve balances and notes (259.5 billion pounds), Britain’s gold supply constitutes roughly 4.05% of pounds in circulation.
marcus_of_augustus
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December 10, 2014, 11:25:10 PM

within days and weeks of Western forces arriving in Kiev to "help" Ukraine, the Ukranian central bank's gold was gone ... the cold gold war has been underway since at least the early 1990's, it is the fulcrum for the leveraged gold loans, i.e. paper gold, (100-1 leverage), for the seemingly miraculous levitation of the fiat ponzi scheme for the last 25-30 years
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December 10, 2014, 11:27:48 PM



from 2012 though
Quote
In the UK, the government’s Exchange Equalisation Account shows 9,971,000 troy ounces of gold on the books. At today’s market value (1,054 British pounds) and the Bank of England’s most recent statement on reserve balances and notes (259.5 billion pounds), Britain’s gold supply constitutes roughly 4.05% of pounds in circulation.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_England#cite_note-44
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article11576.html


PS i don't want to get bogged down in how much gold they do or do not have, it was just an example.
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December 10, 2014, 11:30:49 PM

@criptix:  Give up.  Now you understand why I post gifs.
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December 10, 2014, 11:31:35 PM

within days and weeks of Western forces arriving in Kiev to "help" Ukraine, the Ukranian central bank's gold was gone ... the cold gold war has been underway since at least the early 1990's, it is the fulcrum for the leveraged gold loans, i.e. paper gold, (100-1 leverage), for the seemingly miraculous levitation of the fiat ponzi scheme for the last 25-30 years

Western forces arriving in Ukraine?  Must of missed that as I stood on Maidan square.  
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December 10, 2014, 11:33:31 PM

within days and weeks of Western forces arriving in Kiev to "help" Ukraine, the Ukranian central bank's gold was gone ... the cold gold war has been underway since at least the early 1990's, it is the fulcrum for the leveraged gold loans, i.e. paper gold, (100-1 leverage), for the seemingly miraculous levitation of the fiat ponzi scheme for the last 25-30 years

Western forces arriving in Ukraine?  Must of missed that as I stood on Maidan square.  

Guess you did....   (""advisors"")
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December 10, 2014, 11:34:03 PM

Chang Hum
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December 10, 2014, 11:35:29 PM

In theory it would make much more sense to back fiat with chickens, so increases in money supply due to QE could be balanced with an extensive breeding program.
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December 10, 2014, 11:37:13 PM

within days and weeks of Western forces arriving in Kiev to "help" Ukraine, the Ukranian central bank's gold was gone ... the cold gold war has been underway since at least the early 1990's, it is the fulcrum for the leveraged gold loans, i.e. paper gold, (100-1 leverage), for the seemingly miraculous levitation of the fiat ponzi scheme for the last 25-30 years

Western forces arriving in Ukraine?  Must of missed that as I stood on Maidan square.  

Guess you did....   (""advisors"")

not following.
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December 10, 2014, 11:52:04 PM
Last edit: December 11, 2014, 12:14:05 AM by phoenix1


Yes, I get that to a point, they can print a currency at will, and produce as much as they want.  But, I strongly disagree, that fiat is not backed by anything, the value will be reached by the market based on the creditworthiness of the country.  I'm not suggesting barclays bank has xxx pounds sterling, and can back it with xxx pounds of gold. However, the assets of the bank or the country for that matter should balance.  QE don't create more money, it's like having a large pizza and cutting it into 10 slices instead of 8 slices.  There may have been billions of extra £'s made out of thin air, but each pound almost overnight lost value.

Im not suggesting gold moves in tankers between states.  I am saying that the value of a currency is backed by the bank or country ability to produce assets in the form of gold if required.  


The fiat that is being issued by QE is being used to buy the worst of the worst junk from the banks that hold them to give them the appearance of financial health. All the dog-shit assets are being moved to the balance sheet of the CB's, and yes, it balances because they do not mark them to market and instead assume they will hold to maturity and be repaid or else sell at a later date to contract their balance sheets. The chances of either of those events happening are slim to none. Nobody is calling anyone on it because they are all playing the same game. The FED is now the biggest hedge fund in the world, leveraged about 80:1 (Lehmans was 40:1 when it went bust), and the assets that are leveraged are probably worthless (the Japanese may take this title soon if they have not done so already)

Nobody calls anybody on it because they are all playing the same game and if one domino falls, all the rest will follow. The emperor has no clothes and everyone in the know knows it. It's now just a confidence trick on Joe Public, who, like you (no offense) does not understand the dynamics at play.
The Euro is now largely backed by Greek, Spanish, Portuguese etc govt debt ... good luck with that. Bail out after bailout, they issue Euros and buy the distressed debt, kicking the can further and further down the road under the false assumption that it can go on forever. It won't. But then the music stops its going to get very ugly very fast. How long that will take, nobody knows. All it takes is one systemic shock. The alternative of course is a false flag event, or just plain war.

Gold has virtually nothing to do with it, except that CB's hold an increasingly small portion of their reserves in gold, and there is the an alternative to complete collapse - a complete revaluation of gold such that its value is so high that the balance sheets look respectable again. Not impossible, but unfortunately most western CB's have been flogging their gold to India and China for the last decade. Most of this takes the form of leasing, whereby ownership is transferred notionally and they never hand over the gold, the assumption being that they will if asked. That  assumption may be proven to be very wrong, and it is largely suspected that the same gold has been leased many times over. There are more 'calls' on gold than gold in the vaults. Again, nobody wants to play that card yet, because one failure to deliver gold will lead to a collapse of the pyramid. Why do you think Germany has been so quiet about the non-repatriation of the small portion of their gold they requested from the US? The US has said it will take 5 years to transfer what could be loaded onto a few cargo planes and transferred with ease. But they have not and will not. They have given them a pitiful amount so far.
So the game continues ... for now.

But the players are starting to hear the BTC mantra .. if you don't hold you PK's, you don't have Bitcoin, you have paper Bitcoin. Same goes for gold as confidence wanes and nerves get strained. So countries are becoming increasingly nervous about the gold that is declared on their balance sheets but held in vaults in other countries. As are some of their citizens. It's going to get messy. It's not if, it's when. This is already unfolding in several European countries.

And for what its worth the UK sold most of its Gold years ago (thanks Gordon, nice one  Wink)  to bail out banks that were caught short and could not deliver on futures contracts. Part of the agreement was that they removed themselves from the gold market afterwards. I believe Rothschilds was one of the banks involved.

There is a lot of very interesting stuff out there and it all fits together far too neatly to be just dismissed as a 'conspiracy theory', though naturally that will be the first reaction of the sheeple.

Holding fiat does not give you any call on your CB's reserves whatsoever. In a free market currencies would adjust to reflect the quality of reserves and their ability to borrow in the bond markets but thats as far as it goes. And we don't have free markets ...

EDIT: So I guess you are right in a sense that people are starting to realise that about the only tangible asset on Gov's balance sheets is the negligible amount of gold left since moving form the gold standard. But to say that this is what determines a countries credit-worthiness is stretching it waaaay too far. It probably ought to, but right now it does not. See the problem ??

Sorry for dopplepost .. don't know what happened there !!
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December 10, 2014, 11:52:29 PM

within days and weeks of Western forces arriving in Kiev to "help" Ukraine, the Ukranian central bank's gold was gone ... the cold gold war has been underway since at least the early 1990's, it is the fulcrum for the leveraged gold loans, i.e. paper gold, (100-1 leverage), for the seemingly miraculous levitation of the fiat ponzi scheme for the last 25-30 years

Western forces arriving in Ukraine?  Must of missed that as I stood on Maidan square.  

Guess you did....   (""advisors"")

not following.

The western forces/special forces/non-lethal military aid/special training facilities/jackles or ""advisors"" as our American cousins like to spell it, have been in Ukraine, for quite some time "helping" and "advis(or)ing" way before the doo-doo started flying away from the fan on Maidan square.

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December 11, 2014, 12:00:46 AM


Explanation
NotLambchop
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December 11, 2014, 12:01:33 AM



So good Cheesy
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December 11, 2014, 12:05:06 AM

can we have a special moment of silence for MTGOX and my bitcoins that are lost forever

HuhHuhHuhHuh

I'm always amazed by how fast we all just turned our heads from that debacle... there is no question in my mind this market HAS HAD TO FEEL THE IMPACT of MTGox, and we are feeling it... this will last a considerable amount of time.. you cant just compare 2009 / 2010 to today without taking a look at that and realising there will be an ongoing intangible impact when comparing today's data to historical data etc...

fucking Mark Karpelese!
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December 11, 2014, 12:06:19 AM

Are we gonna test $316 again?
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December 11, 2014, 12:07:04 AM

ITT:  Bitcoiners bitch about the evols of fiat.  Don't know what "fiat" means.

Fiat: A form of currency backed exclusively by Italian automobiles.
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December 11, 2014, 12:07:51 AM

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