VERITASEUM DISCUSSION THREAD

[WeatlhTransfer]

I have this doubt when thinking about those speculative remark made by some people that Veri will compete with bitcoin on market cap.

Here's why I believe that remark is based on ignorance.

Veritas is based on the ethereum blockchain and it is not going to shift to anywhere else in the foreseeable future.
As it is based on ethereum blockchain, Veritas' market cap can never be larger than ethereum's market cap.
In fact, all those ERC20 tokens' market cap combined cannot exceed ethereum's market cap. Why?
A fish (or fishes) cannot grow bigger than the aquarium it is living in. If Veritas' market cap is, say $40 bil, and ethereum's market cap is $38 bil, there won't be enough eth supply to exchange for it, and that supply is short by $2 bil.
Veritas' market cap can exceed ethereum's market cap (let alone compete directly with bitcoin's market cap) only if Veritas is traded off/away from ethereum's network.

You are correct. If token is using ETH and only ETH for trading, paying ... then you are 100 % correct. If you can use token and pay with any other asset or digital currency than sky is the limit (read VERI fits in this group). I stated that the value of each "good" token should be above ETH price (per unit based on circulation supply) not that it can be. 

[azmojo]

I have this doubt when thinking about those speculative remark made by some people that Veri will compete with bitcoin on market cap.

Here's why I believe that remark is based on ignorance.

Veritas is based on the ethereum blockchain and it is not going to shift to anywhere else in the foreseeable future.
As it is based on ethereum blockchain, Veritas' market cap can never be larger than ethereum's market cap.
In fact, all those ERC20 tokens' market cap combined cannot exceed ethereum's market cap. Why?
A fish (or fishes) cannot grow bigger than the aquarium it is living in. If Veritas' market cap is, say $40 bil, and ethereum's market cap is $38 bil, there won't be enough eth supply to exchange for it, and that supply is short by $2 bil.
Veritas' market cap can exceed ethereum's market cap (let alone compete directly with bitcoin's market cap) only if Veritas is traded off/away from ethereum's network.

I partially disagree. The VERI market cap could *temporarily* exceed ETH's market cap as you have individual holders of each deciding to exchange very small fractions of total supply. However, such a condition would probably not be long term sustainable as you would point out, eventually the supply of ETH would run out to buy VERI, but on a small individual trader basis I think that condition could exist for some time.

[WeatlhTransfer]

I have this doubt when thinking about those speculative remark made by some people that Veri will compete with bitcoin on market cap.

Here's why I believe that remark is based on ignorance.

Veritas is based on the ethereum blockchain and it is not going to shift to anywhere else in the foreseeable future.
As it is based on ethereum blockchain, Veritas' market cap can never be larger than ethereum's market cap.
In fact, all those ERC20 tokens' market cap combined cannot exceed ethereum's market cap. Why?
A fish (or fishes) cannot grow bigger than the aquarium it is living in. If Veritas' market cap is, say $40 bil, and ethereum's market cap is $38 bil, there won't be enough eth supply to exchange for it, and that supply is short by $2 bil.
Veritas' market cap can exceed ethereum's market cap (let alone compete directly with bitcoin's market cap) only if Veritas is traded off/away from ethereum's network.

I partially disagree. The VERI market cap could *temporarily* exceed ETH's market cap as you have individual holders of each deciding to exchange very small fractions of total supply. However, such a condition would probably not be long term sustainable as you would point out, eventually the supply of ETH would run out to buy VERI, but on a small individual trader basis I think that condition could exist for some time.

This is also correct and you are right. This condition can probably last couple of hours perhaps a day or two but not weeks, months or years.

[zidane]

I sold now all my VERI holdings and bought yesterday some SCORECOIN

Good for you. I hope that you will get huge profit out of it.

Thanks man.... I made nice Profits... Scorecoin raises over 200% last night

[WeatlhTransfer]

I sold now all my VERI holdings and bought yesterday some SCORECOIN

Good for you. I hope that you will get huge profit out of it.

Thanks man.... I made nice Profits... Scorecoin raises over 200% last night

Kool. I am glad that it worked out well for you. Am guessing pump and dump? I don't have nerves for this.

[zidane]

I sold now all my VERI holdings and bought yesterday some SCORECOIN

Good for you. I hope that you will get huge profit out of it.

Thanks man.... I made nice Profits... Scorecoin raises over 200% last night

Kool. I am glad that it worked out well for you. Am guessing pump and dump? I don't have nerves for this.

No not a pump and dump. Dev is updating the Code and also Masternodes are coming.
Actualy news is that Dev Team got a new IBM DEV.

[Dorky]

Thanks to all the replies to my previous comment.

Yes, I also believe Veritas' market cap can still exceed ethereum's market cap for only a brief while before adjusting lower below eth's as this is would be an "overbought" condition.
Currently we can get Veritas only thru eth alone.
Eth is currently used both as a form of "currency" and gas, and I see a conflict there.
If somehow eth is used purely just as gas, then Veritas' market cap can exceed eth's.
This we will need to see the Ethereum group of developers' roadmap ahead.
Vitalik Buterin himself said eth is not an investment (I would assume he meant not an investment as currency).
So maybe ethereum will eventually be just used for gas.
Nevertheless, I would take Vitalik's advice seriously (that eth is not a good investment), he seems to be a very honest man to me.

[Haddem]

Thanks to all the replies to my previous comment.

Yes, I also believe Veritas' market cap can still exceed ethereum's market cap for only a brief while before adjusting lower below eth's as this is would be an "overbought" condition.
Currently we can get Veritas only thru eth alone.
Eth is currently used both as a form of "currency" and gas, and I see a conflict there.
If somehow eth is used purely just as gas, then Veritas' market cap can exceed eth's.
This we will need to see the Ethereum group of developers' roadmap ahead.
Vitalik Buterin himself said eth is not an investment (I would assume he meant not an investment as currency).
So maybe ethereum will eventually be just used for gas.
Nevertheless, I would take Vitalik's advice seriously (that eth is not a good investment), he seems to be a very honest man to me.

Won't Reggies plans to align with stock exchanges solve this problem? I mean, if we can get VERI with dollars and other fiat currencies, that would practically mean ETH is only needed for gas? Or am I seeing this the wrong way?

[asepsetiawan1990]

I have this doubt when thinking about those speculative remark made by some people that Veri will compete with bitcoin on market cap.

Here's why I believe that remark is based on ignorance.

Veritas is based on the ethereum blockchain and it is not going to shift to anywhere else in the foreseeable future.
As it is based on ethereum blockchain, Veritas' market cap can never be larger than ethereum's market cap.
In fact, all those ERC20 tokens' market cap combined cannot exceed ethereum's market cap. Why?
A fish (or fishes) cannot grow bigger than the aquarium it is living in. If Veritas' market cap is, say $40 bil, and ethereum's market cap is $38 bil, there won't be enough eth supply to exchange for it, and that supply is short by $2 bil.
Veritas' market cap can exceed ethereum's market cap (let alone compete directly with bitcoin's market cap) only if Veritas is traded off/away from ethereum's network.

I partially disagree. The VERI market cap could *temporarily* exceed ETH's market cap as you have individual holders of each deciding to exchange very small fractions of total supply. However, such a condition would probably not be long term sustainable as you would point out, eventually the supply of ETH would run out to buy VERI, but on a small individual trader basis I think that condition could exist for some time.

This is also correct and you are right. This condition can probably last couple of hours perhaps a day or two but not weeks, months or years.

We wait for the good news from all this. And everything gets good again. But is not there a best solution regarding this?

[toknormal]

A fish (or fishes) cannot grow bigger than the aquarium it is living in. If Veritas' market cap is, say $40 bil, and ethereum's market cap is $38 bil, there won't be enough eth supply to exchange for it

By that warped logic, the credit market of a nation could never exceed the base money supply.

In fact it exceeds it many times. (Because slightly more sophisticated concepts than goldfish and tanks apply).

[Dorky]

A fish (or fishes) cannot grow bigger than the aquarium it is living in. If Veritas' market cap is, say $40 bil, and ethereum's market cap is $38 bil, there won't be enough eth supply to exchange for it

By that warped logic, the credit market of a nation could never exceed the base money supply.

In fact it exceeds it many times. (Because slightly more sophisticated concepts than goldfish and tanks apply).

By your warped and twisted logic, you fail to see the difference between blockchain network that is leverage-free from the conventional debt economy that is fully leveraged.
Like comparing apples to oranges.
Besides, the credit market that you refer to is the source of all economic problems.
Please give a better argument next time, thanks.

[AltCity]

Won't Reggies plans to align with stock exchanges solve this problem? I mean, if we can get VERI with dollars and other fiat currencies, that would practically mean ETH is only needed for gas? Or am I seeing this the wrong way?

Ethereum is needed for gas, and access to the distributed blockchain. The financial industry has spent a lot of money building private competing blockchains. The duplicated effort to maintain these separate platforms is an unneeded cost, and exposes the financial industry to a whole host of security implications through security through obscurity. Reggie's work to build Veritaseum will be built upon public access to the blockchain. This is a competitive edge. Just like the walled gardens of AOL, and other early online providers could not withstand the onslaught of the open internet.

Your Porsche Panamera, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, or BMW 7-Series all drive on the same road as a Kia or Fiat. The infrastructure is not a determination of the vehicle's value. The infrastructure guarantees only the rules of the road.

For public infrastructure and I am comparing Veritaseum to the National Highway system, these expected rules are what allow businesses to operate upon them, individual drivers to make their livelihood by commuting and, pleasure seekers to take weekend sight-seeing drives.

All of what we expect from the highway infrastructure, is what allows business and commerce to thrive. We are together building the distributed blockchain system. This endeavor began with bitcoin and continues through ethereum to new tokens like VERI.

Veritaseum is moving fast and the deals they make with legacy institutions strengthen both parties and allow them both to thrive in this emerging economy. The barriers to entry are remarkably low still and your future self will smile knowing you were a part of such a momentous moment in history!

[toknormal]

By your warped and twisted logic, you fail to see the difference between blockchain network that is leverage-free

A blockchain asset is no more "leverage free" than 19th century signal box. What do think exchange tokens are ?

Anyway, you're confusing the concept of "leverage" with that of exchange rates between independently traded assets. An Ethereum meta token (such as the ERC-20 token) does not derive its value from being backed by the Ether blockchain token. It derives it from an independent business model. The aggregate marketcap of all those tokens combined can therefore easily exceed that of Ether itself without there being any 'leverage' involved. Nor does their marketcap transmit directly back to the value of Ether (though it may do so indirectly).

[Dorky]

A blockchain asset is no more "leverage free" than 19th century signal box. What do think exchange tokens are ?

Anyway, you're confusing the concept of "leverage" with that of exchange rates between independently traded assets. An Ethereum meta token (such as the ERC-20 token) does not derive its value from being backed by the Ether blockchain token. It derives it from an independent business model. The aggregate marketcap of all those tokens combined can therefore easily exceed that of Ether itself without there being any 'leverage' involved. Nor does their marketcap transmit directly back to the value of Ether (though it may do so indirectly).

The ERC20 tokens do not have leverage. Neither does the ethereum blockchain employs any leverage. You referred to the credit market that employs leverage where it exceeds the money supply as an example to imply all the ERC20 tokens are similar, i.e. their aggregate market cap can exceed ethereum's market cap, thus making an unequal comparison. Yes, their value is derived from their own independent business model. Nevertheless, as long as they are accessible only directly through eth and eth alone, then their market cap remain limited by ethereum's market cap. No, I never said the ERC20 tokens' values are derived from ethereum's blockchain/network/market cap. I meant  that their market cap is capped by ethereum's market cap. If ethereum's market cap is $20bil and Veritas' (and other ERC20 tokens) market cap is $30bil and nobody can exchange Veritas into any other cryptocurrency without going directly through eth first, then tell me how will the market be able to satisfy all the demand for liquidity.

Edit:
I never said the ERC20 tokens need any leverage to exceed ethereum's market cap. I only said they need to be traded OFF/AWAY FROM the ethereum blockchain. Trading off/away from the ethereum blockchain doesn't necessarily mean they must employ leverage. The blockchain itself wasn't constructed to include leverage, in my opinion. You need to understand this, I brought up leverage not because I believe ERC20 tokens need/don't need leverage. I brought up leverage because you used the credit market as a flawed example of why ERC20 tokens' market cap can exceed eth's market cap. If you didn't use the credit market as a bad example, I would not mentioned leverage. Without leverage, there would be no credit market for you to refer to because such market would not exist.
I never said the ERC20 market cap transmits directly to the value of eth.

Edit 2:
If the ethereum network is a super highway and the ERC20 tokens are the vehicles, and the super highway is limited to just $20bil 20km in length while the vehicles keep growing in number to $30bil 30 million units, then we will either build a way much larger super highway or we will experience a massive traffic jam. Unless the vehicles can be transformed into airborne units that can fly off this 20km-limit super highway. It doesn't matter what car we drive, be it Rolls Royce or a used car, the current condition will result in traffic jam.

At the moment, if I am a car dealer, I need to sell my cars by driving it to the customers' locations and I need oil barrels as gas for the transportation. And I have to accept oil barrels from my customers as payment for my cars. If I want to get USD, I need to get the oil barrels first before I can get any USD. If I want to be paid USD directly for my cars, I cannot. I must accept oil barrels first and foremost before I can get any USD. I am growing bigger and bigger. Soon I will sell a billion cars and the last thing I want is to be paid trillions of barrels of oil. Why the fuck would I need so many barrels of oil for? I am not an oil refiner. I am just a car dealer. I only need enough oil barrels for gas/transportation to send my cars to the customers and that's it. I don't want the trouble of refining the trillions of oil barrels in order to get my USD. Why is this so simple to see and understand and yet some continue to fail to see this?

And the worst case is not that I am compelled to accept trillions of oil barrels as payment for my billions of cars. The worst case is that there is only 1 trillion of oil barrels available for everyone. After a record sales of a billion cars, I will grow even bigger to sell a trillion cars. How the fuck will my payment work out with just 1 trillion oil barrels available? I am already accepting a trillion oil barrels for a billion of my cars. Soon will I be forced to accept a trillion oil barrels for a trillion of my cars?

For the less intellectually initiated, my cars refer to the ERC20 tokens, oil barrels refer to eth, the number of oil barrels available refer to eth's market cap, the limited amount of oil barrels available refer to the limiting factor of eth market cap.

[AltCity]

For public infrastructure and I am comparing Veritaseum to the National Highway system, these expected rules are what allow businesses to operate upon them, individual drivers to make their livelihood by commuting and, pleasure seekers to take weekend sight-seeing drives.

The value of vehicles utilizing public infrastructure is NOT tied to the extant of that infrastructure. It can increase as the infrastructure expands, and the key contributor of value of the vehicles is how they utilize the rules of the road. There may be weight limits for bridges, and height limits for tunnels.

The utility of a vehicle will have to match the infrastructure. Innovation of vehicles and those who implement them is where the value determination is found. Closing a road for repairs does not instantly devalue all vehicles. Conversely opening a new road does not instantly increase the value of all vehicles. So the marginal value in expansion of the infrastructure is to be found in how vehicles utilize the rules of the road, and the innovation in vehicle design. Building a new road that I never travel on does not bring me benefit, it is an option. Whereas passing a law that allows all vehicles to travel at 90 MPH could be of immediate benefit to me, anywhere. It is the laws that all players utilize that allows the creation of vehicles that benefit those who own them.

[Dorky]

For public infrastructure and I am comparing Veritaseum to the National Highway system, these expected rules are what allow businesses to operate upon them, individual drivers to make their livelihood by commuting and, pleasure seekers to take weekend sight-seeing drives.

The value of vehicles utilizing public infrastructure is NOT tied to the extant of that infrastructure. It can increase as the infrastructure expands, and the key contributor of value of the vehicles is how they utilize the rules of the road. There may be weight limits for bridges, and height limits for tunnels.

The utility of a vehicle will have to match the infrastructure. Innovation of vehicles and those who implement them is where the value determination is found. Closing a road for repairs does not instantly devalue all vehicles. Conversely opening a new road does not instantly increase the value of all vehicles. So the marginal value in expansion of the infrastructure is to be found in how vehicles utilize the rules of the road, and the innovation in vehicle design. Building a new road that I never travel on does not bring me benefit, it is an option. Whereas passing a law that allows all vehicles to travel at 90 MPH could be of immediate benefit to me, anywhere. It is the laws that all players utilize that allows the creation of vehicles that benefit those who own them.

Do you realize your argument is 100% in support of my argument?
Ultimately the vehicles will evolve within this public infrastructure, and not beyond it.

Do you realize your argument is similar in another way that ERC20 tokens' total market cap is capped by eth's market cap?

Edit:
If any vehicle wants to evolve independent of any public infrastructure, it needs to be made independent of such infrastructure.

[toknormal]

Yes, their value is derived from their own independent business model. Nevertheless, as long as they are accessible only directly through eth and eth alone, then their market cap remain limited by ethereum's market cap.

Dorky.

Your analogies with cars, highways and oil are endearing but slightly off target I'm afraid.

Go back and think again - this time ditch all notions of volume flowrates and go with exchange rates instead. You might get somewhere then  

[azmojo]

Market value is what 2 parties are willing to buy and sell something for. Just because VERI is priced in ETH does not mean that it always has to be purchased with ETH. In fact, Mercatox lets you buy with BTC. And I could offer you fiat for your VERI and I could even setup a USD/VERI exchange. After much consideration, I see no reason why the market cap of VERI couldn't exceed the market cap of ETH on a lasting basis.

[toknormal]

Lets say Ethereum blockchain contains a total (and current) supply of 10 ETH.

Somebody creates a smart contract that generates 100 tokens called 'trikToken' (TRK).

ETH trades at $1 per unit.
TRK trades at 30 cents per token.

ETH marketcap = $10
TRK marketcap = $30

TRK marketcap has exceeded ETH marketcap.

[Josef27]

Lets say Ethereum blockchain contains a total (and current) supply of 10 ETH.

Somebody creates a smart contract that generates 100 tokens called 'trikToken' (TRK).

ETH trades at $1 per unit.
TRK trades at 30 cents per token.

ETH marketcap = $10
TRK marketcap = $30

TRK marketcap has exceeded ETH marketcap.

I didn't see this video on Veritaseum from Mike
He contacted Reggie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVNwzuctlSA&spfreload=10

Also one of my all time favorites starts at like 20m last for 3 min the section Talks about Veri and Rockefeller wealth. It's almost like he's implying VERI holders

https://youtu.be/qezrH2c5N3c?t=20m26s

There's another Clif video where he and Bix and Jsnip discuss Veri that's my other one
https://youtu.be/xtkRDshL2zY?t=31m47s



Guys also don't be fooled into selling on EtherDelta. What i've seen is someone who has some Veri wants to buy cheap. They start walking the bids down, selling back and forth to themselves, loading with small amounts.  So if you want to pick off a few cheap coins from them.  I've seen bots do this on PPT as well. They try and hide, but you will see a bunch of 1.0 sells each getting cheaper and cheaper. They hope you see a lower price and panic sell, and boom there goes your fortune.