BiblePay - New Coin Launch - Official Thread

[616westwarmoth]

The current reward is 20K, it goes down 10% each year.

Currently the reward is split 90% miner, 10% Orphan Fund (charity).

After Sanctuaries come on line (Masternodes, end of year), the split will become 80/10/10 Miner/MN/Charity.

This coin introduces a pretty novel algo and is one of very view that can be considered charitable, plus the community has so far been pretty helpful and is inclusive, so I think its got that going for it.  On the downside, you have this giant inflation in the first few months (we'll be close to 1.5B coins at year's end), a Dev who is very helpful but still anon right now, a mining pool run by the dev that has a bit of stability issues with it's interface (but the pool itself is pretty solid) and a fair amount of uncertainty about specifics for the future.

[bible_pay]

If im not mistaken there's 4M new coins every day and by 2018 there will be around 500M more.  So it would make sense to have at least 0.1% of all the coins to run a masternode.  

So maybe something between 500k and 1M coins.

This of course is all speculation

On the masternodes, I was thinking they should probably be around $500 or so.  Thats about 700,000 bbp.  This is just an estimate.  Id really like a good 90 day baseline first.

As far as charging for the pool, I am thinking about charging 1% for Anonymous users and leaving the pool as Free for non-anonymous.  It would help pay for the server and any queries I have to do.  It would also allow the code to be modified so when open sourced people can charge fees.

Ill take a look at those mining guides that someone posted.

EDIT:  Good post on the masternode analysis also, regarding 51% attacks, thanks.

[bible_pay]

The current reward is 20K, it goes down 10% each year.

Currently the reward is split 90% miner, 10% Orphan Fund (charity).

After Sanctuaries come on line (Masternodes, end of year), the split will become 80/10/10 Miner/MN/Charity.

This coin introduces a pretty novel algo and is one of very view that can be considered charitable, plus the community has so far been pretty helpful and is inclusive, so I think its got that going for it.  On the downside, you have this giant inflation in the first few months (we'll be close to 1.5B coins at year's end), a Dev who is very helpful but still anon right now, a mining pool run by the dev that has a bit of stability issues with it's interface (but the pool itself is pretty solid) and a fair amount of uncertainty about specifics for the future.

I agree with your assessments and want to say, I am impressed by your assessments and all your posts so far and they seem to be accurate and fair.

But I do want to appeal on the klunky problematic UI on the pool.  A few days ago, that update fixed the 'problems'.

  Could you all please provide any feedback if you think the pool has any front end UI problems now.  The login,logout works fine, and is Designed to expire your session after 15 mins of inactivity.  The rest of it, to me works fine now, and someone mentioned AJAX, but imo, its not even necessary as I think we have some pretty important priorities-like the interface for writing to our orphans, etc.  Pool should be behaving better... as of 3 days ago.

[gigabyted]

If im not mistaken there's 4M new coins every day and by 2018 there will be around 500M more.  So it would make sense to have at least 0.1% of all the coins to run a masternode.  

So maybe something between 500k and 1M coins.

This of course is all speculation

The actual expectation is just short of 1.5B coins by end of the year, 2.8B end of 2018, 9B end of 2025 and 14.54 by end of production in 2050 ish.

If you look at Linda, its a new high volume coin that is up to 8B already and a max supply of 50B, it requires 30M to make a Masternode.  And DASH is 1K with a current supply of 7M and max of 19M.  Right now DASH has just shy of 4700 MN, or nearly 2/3rd the supply whereas PIVX has about 1/3rd the supply locked in MN and Linda has about 1/6th the supply locked in MN.

With this coin, my opinion is you need to consider two things when setting the cost of a Sanctuary (Masternode).  

Since there is a charitable component to this coin that will be directed solely by the Sanctuaries you need a cost high enough to get people serious about it but low enough that you can have enough different users to avoid a 51% attack that could in theory direct the Orphan Fund to an improper purpose.  Basically, if Sanctuaries cost 25M BBP, there might only be one.  That person then could say, "The Orphan Fund goes to me".  Likewise if you have a Sanctuary cost of 50K BBP, there would be too many of them to be cost effect to host on servers and you'd end up with glorified PoS mining and little of the benefits of Masternodes.

Unless you end up with pools to buy nodes (which happens now with DASH), the other aspect becomes how much income they produce, which in 2018 BBP MN Sanctuaries will share approximately 130M BBP.

So taking all that into consideration, the Dev should consider total supply in the short term, first year income and 51% attack resistance.  If 1/3 the end of year supply ended up in Sanctuaries, that'd be 500M.  A cost of 1M to 2M would be between 250 and 500 Sanctuaries at 1/3 of the total supply.  They would earn about 20K-40K BBP per month in the first year.  20K/month at 10 Sats is at current rates about $9 a month so even at pretty low prices that would be sufficient to pay for full time hosting.

I've said I hope the cost is 500K-1M, I'd revise that to say a cost of 500K-2M is not unreasonable to me.

1.5B by year end?   How do you get to that?

There's 1440 minutes in a day and each block is 7 mins, so about 205 blocks per day lets say 130 days before end of year so we should be around block 30k by the end of the year, 30k block at 20k coins each is around 600M coins

But i mostly agree with your analysis...

Edit: Oh i see where you made your mistake, you mixed year end with a full year of coins, there's about 1.5B to be release the first year, but not by year end

[Taras]

SUBSIDY BREAKDOWN: 10% TO CHARITY, 10% TO MASTERNODES, 80% TO MINER

Built-in and mandatory miner tithing?! That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard!!

Or maybe not, devcoin had it the other way around - 90% to charity, 10% to miner!

[inblue]

Could you all please provide any feedback if you think the pool has any front end UI problems now.  The login,logout works fine, and is Designed to expire your session after 15 mins of inactivity.  The rest of it, to me works fine now, and someone mentioned AJAX, but imo, its not even necessary as I think we have some pretty important priorities-like the interface for writing to our orphans, etc.  Pool should be behaving better... as of 3 days ago.

Nothing on this list is a priority except probably the first point:

• If you don't type your password when you edit the account, the password for your account will change to blank, so if you try to login again with your (old) password, it will be denied and then it turns out you can login just with the username, leaving the password field blank!
• Block explorer navigation link exists only when you are logged out
• From the Withdraw page, the Home navigation link leads to the Account page
• All navigation links are visible only from the home page, on all other pages there is only the Home link, which can be annoying to go through two links every time you want to take a look at something else
• Switch to Test Net link shows Switch to Main Net only after you click it, later it shows Switch to Test Net again and you can't go back to Main Net unless you refresh the page
• Existence of a horizontal scrollbar on all pages (empty gray content on the right)
• Block distribution history table changes row background color after your highlighted yellow row, instead of not changing it until the next block height
• Kind of a similar thing on the Leaderboard - it was probably intended for the same user to retain the same row color if their workers are next to each other, but that seems useless because:
  
  • Users can have vastly different hash rates so their workers will not be next to each other
  • It kind of exposes anonymous users when their workers are next to each other because you can conclude that's the same anonymous user, not multiple users
  • It breaks table consistency and readability
• Confusing order of navigation links - especially Log off which should be at the end, not somewhere in the middle; or Leaderboard which is probably a very used link, but it's placement is like it's less important than the Switch to Test Net link.
• General look of the website which people may not find aesthetically pleasing

That's all I could find for now, I hope it was helpful.

[Retired]

SUBSIDY BREAKDOWN: 10% TO CHARITY, 10% TO MASTERNODES, 80% TO MINER

Built-in and mandatory miner tithing?! That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard!!

Or maybe not, devcoin had it the other way around - 90% to charity, 10% to miner!

DevCoin is not the best example for this, given their success... hopefully this project is much more successful.

Also the distribution is completely different. 80% to miners, and in DevCoin it was just 10% to miners.

[616westwarmoth]

I agree with your assessments and want to say, I am impressed by your assessments and all your posts so far and they seem to be accurate and fair.

But I do want to appeal on the klunky problematic UI on the pool.  A few days ago, that update fixed the 'problems'.

  Could you all please provide any feedback if you think the pool has any front end UI problems now.  The login,logout works fine, and is Designed to expire your session after 15 mins of inactivity.  The rest of it, to me works fine now, and someone mentioned AJAX, but imo, its not even necessary as I think we have some pretty important priorities-like the interface for writing to our orphans, etc.  Pool should be behaving better... as of 3 days ago.

I apologize for sounding critical of the pool UI.  I haven't had any problems with it for a bit, but was unclear if it was fixed or I was just getting lucky.  So in the end I was just trying to laundry list the pro's and con's thus far.  You're doing great with the info, I understand how things go with development (at least theoretically as I have MS in CS but no real world experience in this realm).  That said, I love this coin, I have gotten at least two others that are off board to join the mining and are excited too as well as a coworker who is a computer neophyte that is about to take the plunge.  If you have any need of help, I would dearly love to give more to this project (just PM me).  In fact if you look at my comment history, I might be thought to be a BBP shill as a majority of my posts are here, but I assure you, I'm a real person that doesn't know the Dev.

The biggest priorities in the short run are determining a cost of Sanctuaries (MN) and how the voting structure and an independent audit of the Orphan Fund to put the skeptical minds to rest.  Getting a pretty solid idea of what the MN costs should encourage stockpiling and support the price (that partially reflects the health of the coin) which is likely to dip a bit as supply increases.

I'd think you should tie the MN to more an expected rate of MN at a cost and rate of return for that cost as a percentile rather than worry about a true hard dollar amount but hey, it's your coin. 

I really like the idea of 1% fee for anon pool mining, that's a great compromise, but would suggest 0.5% for non-anon too to have at least a bit of revenue to offset the expense if "everyone jumped".

[616westwarmoth]

1.5B by year end?   How do you get to that?

There's 1440 minutes in a day and each block is 7 mins, so about 205 blocks per day lets say 130 days before end of year so we should be around block 30k by the end of the year, 30k block at 20k coins each is around 600M coins

But i mostly agree with your analysis...

Edit: Oh i see where you made your mistake, you mixed year end with a full year of coins, there's about 1.5B to be release the first year, but not by year end

Yeah I just blindly parroted the biblepay.org website which says

BiblePay deflationary Emission Schedule: (205 blocks per day, 7 minute block targets):
    // Yearly decline of production by ~10% per year, projected ~14.54 Billion coins max by year 2050+.
   // Year:  2017, Subsidy: 20000, Emission: 1496500000, Grand Total: 1 496 500 000
   // Year:  2018, Subsidy: 18000, Emission: 1346850000, Grand Total: 2 843 350 000
   // Year:  2019, Subsidy: 16200, Emission: 1212165000, Grand Total: 4 055 515 000
   // Year:  2020, Subsidy: 14580, Emission: 1090948500, Grand Total: 5 146 463 500
   // Year:  2021, Subsidy: 13122, Emission: 981853650,  Grand Total: 6 128 317 150
   // Year:  2025, Subsidy: 8609,  Emission: 644194179,  Grand Total: 9 167 252 382
   // Year:  2030, Subsidy: 5083,  Emission: 380390221,  Grand Total: 11 541 488 001
   // Year:  2035, Subsidy: 3001,  Emission: 224616621,  Grand Total: 12 943 450 406
   // Year:  2040, Subsidy: 1772,  Emission: 132633868,  Grand Total: 13 771 295 175
   // Year:  2045, Subsidy: 1046,  Emission: 78318973,   Grand Total: 14 260 129 248
   // Year:  2050, Subsidy: 618,   Emission: 46246570,   Grand Total: 14 548 780 867

I should have gotten the pen and paper out but didn't   You are correct in your math (600M +/- end of year) and the above should really probably say 1.5B after one year, unless the 10% drop is actually tied to the calendar year.  Otherwise we can say 1.5B July 2018, 2.8B July 2019, 9B July 2026, etc. etc.

[yesiam6]

praise the lord !
Is this coin on any exchanges yet? if no we should try getting added to novaexchange they take almost every coin that gets 250 votes

[bible_pay]

https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/6umlqq/how_to_mine_biblepay_on_windows/

https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/6ummuj/how_to_mine_biblepay_on_linux/

These are guides I wrote on how to mine BiblePay on Windows and Linux, please use/take/expand them!, or let me know any feedback!

===

For less skilled computer users, it would be cool if there was some more UI functionality like:
Start Mining, Stop Mining
Set Number of Threads
Current CPU Usage of BiblePay Mining
Enable/Disable Pool, Set Pool Worker Name

I assume that most people on this forum could edit config files with ease, but for the non-techies this could help them get into mining successfully

Thanks, this is a great start.

I added these to the website under Guides.

[bible_pay]

Could you all please provide any feedback if you think the pool has any front end UI problems now.  The login,logout works fine, and is Designed to expire your session after 15 mins of inactivity.  The rest of it, to me works fine now, and someone mentioned AJAX, but imo, its not even necessary as I think we have some pretty important priorities-like the interface for writing to our orphans, etc.  Pool should be behaving better... as of 3 days ago.

Nothing on this list is a priority except probably the first point:

• If you don't type your password when you edit the account, the password for your account will change to blank, so if you try to login again with your (old) password, it will be denied and then it turns out you can login just with the username, leaving the password field blank!
• Block explorer navigation link exists only when you are logged out
• From the Withdraw page, the Home navigation link leads to the Account page
• All navigation links are visible only from the home page, on all other pages there is only the Home link, which can be annoying to go through two links every time you want to take a look at something else
• Switch to Test Net link shows Switch to Main Net only after you click it, later it shows Switch to Test Net again and you can't go back to Main Net unless you refresh the page
• Existence of a horizontal scrollbar on all pages (empty gray content on the right)
• Block distribution history table changes row background color after your highlighted yellow row, instead of not changing it until the next block height
• Kind of a similar thing on the Leaderboard - it was probably intended for the same user to retain the same row color if their workers are next to each other, but that seems useless because:
  
  • Users can have vastly different hash rates so their workers will not be next to each other
  • It kind of exposes anonymous users when their workers are next to each other because you can conclude that's the same anonymous user, not multiple users
  • It breaks table consistency and readability
• Confusing order of navigation links - especially Log off which should be at the end, not somewhere in the middle; or Leaderboard which is probably a very used link, but it's placement is like it's less important than the Switch to Test Net link.
• General look of the website which people may not find aesthetically pleasing

That's all I could find for now, I hope it was helpful.

You must have been working on this list for a while, there is no way a human could have done this in 15 mins, lol.

Anyway, looks like I have some work to do (on this).  Will take care of the hot items.

[jstern]

It's incredible how many pages this has, for something introduced a month ago. It shows that polarizing concepts get a lot of attention. Kind of like Trump.

[616westwarmoth]

It's incredible how many pages this has, for something introduced a month ago. It shows that polarizing concepts get a lot of attention. Kind of like Trump.

If I were to bet, I'd say over half the miners that are here for philosophical appeal wouldn't categorize themselves as deeply religious.  But the notion of helping the less fortunate is very appealing to many.

[inblue]

If I were to bet, I'd say over half the miners that are here for philosophical appeal wouldn't categorize themselves as deeply religious.  But the notion of helping the less fortunate is very appealing to many.

Exactly, you just described me. I think that by helping the less fortunate, most people actually become happier and more content with their own life, and rightfully so.

[civilufo]

If im not mistaken there's 4M new coins every day and by 2018 there will be around 500M more.  So it would make sense to have at least 0.1% of all the coins to run a masternode.  

So maybe something between 500k and 1M coins.

This of course is all speculation

On the masternodes, I was thinking they should probably be around $500 or so.  Thats about 700,000 bbp.  This is just an estimate.  Id really like a good 90 day baseline first.

As far as charging for the pool, I am thinking about charging 1% for Anonymous users and leaving the pool as Free for non-anonymous.  It would help pay for the server and any queries I have to do.  It would also allow the code to be modified so when open sourced people can charge fees.

Ill take a look at those mining guides that someone posted.

EDIT:  Good post on the masternode analysis also, regarding 51% attacks, thanks.

Wow, 700k seems a lot to me, I have less than 200k now  

If there are 100 masternodes, 205 blocks per day, 20k per block, 10% for masternode. Then 205 * 20k * 0.1 / 100 = 4100bbp per day. Correct me if wrong calculation...

I never setup a masternode before, but I'd like to setup one for biblepay. 700k still my coin, right? Just need to secure in the masternode wallet?

[bible_pay]

If im not mistaken there's 4M new coins every day and by 2018 there will be around 500M more.  So it would make sense to have at least 0.1% of all the coins to run a masternode.  

So maybe something between 500k and 1M coins.

This of course is all speculation

On the masternodes, I was thinking they should probably be around $500 or so.  Thats about 700,000 bbp.  This is just an estimate.  Id really like a good 90 day baseline first.

As far as charging for the pool, I am thinking about charging 1% for Anonymous users and leaving the pool as Free for non-anonymous.  It would help pay for the server and any queries I have to do.  It would also allow the code to be modified so when open sourced people can charge fees.

Ill take a look at those mining guides that someone posted.

EDIT:  Good post on the masternode analysis also, regarding 51% attacks, thanks.

Wow, 700k seems a lot to me, I have less than 200k now  

If there are 100 masternodes, 205 blocks per day, 20k per block, 10% for masternode. Then 205 * 20k * 0.1 / 100 = 4100bbp per day. Correct me if wrong calculation...

I never setup a masternode before, but I'd like to setup one for biblepay. 700k still my coin, right? Just need to secure in the masternode wallet?

Regarding 700k, we have to ensure it is a high enough amount to cover instantsend transactions.  You are basically becoming the insurance to guarantee the amount gets instantly from point A to B without the recipient waiting for the transaction.  So it cant be too low, the backing funds must cover expensive transactions.

Also, think of this as an entrepreneurial venture where it takes a real investment to get started but promises good earning potential.

Yes, your math is correct, we would move 4100bbp from the subsidies that now go to the miners to the masternodes when they go live with the assumption that we had 100.

Yes, on the escrow amount, if it was 700k, your coins are sent to an escrow address and held.  They can be withdrawn at any time.  Once withdrawn, the masternode monthly payment stops coming to your personal wallet address.

[seasonw]

It is good to know pool started to charge fee to cover development and server cost. Does it mean that it is officially released now?


BTW, what does it mean by "Anonymous User Pool Fee"? I thought we have to create pool account in order to mine?

[bible_pay]

It is good to know pool started to charge fee to cover development and server cost. Does it mean that it is officially released now?


BTW, what does it mean by "Anonymous User Pool Fee"? I thought we have to create pool account in order to mine?

Its still not ready for prod, still beta.  We have a couple open items in the testnet testing thread for the pool that should make it nicer.

The anonymous row is the fee subtracted from the mining credit when the user has 'cloaked' their profile from the public.

The fee is still 0 for non-anonymous users.

[616westwarmoth]

Wow, 700k seems a lot to me, I have less than 200k now  

If there are 100 masternodes, 205 blocks per day, 20k per block, 10% for masternode. Then 205 * 20k * 0.1 / 100 = 4100bbp per day. Correct me if wrong calculation...

I never setup a masternode before, but I'd like to setup one for biblepay. 700k still my coin, right? Just need to secure in the masternode wallet?

If you have 200k now, you figure in four more months, even with a ramp in difficulty you should be in the ballpark of 700k.  If you had to buy another 100k or so on the market even at 20 sats you'd be looking at realistically making that back in the first year.  You'd be out less than an additional $100 to fund it, and probably could get a MN hosted for $5/month.  Even at 20k/month income for 3 months, 15k for 3 months and 10k for 6 months, you'd end up with 165K BBP, which isn't an unrealistic expectation.

It seems to me that the coins that have MN success grow, so even if you don't net a actualized profit, you might be sitting on 700k (or 1.2M or whatever) BBP that rise above 24 sats would put you in great shape.  I firmly believe that this coin, if defects don't arise, could easily be a 24-30 sat coin a few months after MN hit, and could even rise higher.  But more than the idea that I'd make out well from that, is the higher the price goes, the more good can be done with the Orphan Fund.  Imagine if the coin hit $1/BBP, not likely in the short or moderate term (but not impossible).  If it was four years from now, the Orphan Fund would be making about 1300 BBP/block by my math.  That (unlikely) scenario would mean the Orphan Fund would be pulling in (and I checked my math) almost $8M a month.  Can you fathom the good that could be accomplished with just 1% of that?

To that end, I would suggest the Dev codify the Orphan Fund "laws" before MN hit and require a 2/3rds majority to change or modify that.  "Laws" like, 75% of the funds will be used to sponsor children at Compassion.com.  The Fund coins will be sold when their value exceeds "X" dollar amount, but no more frequently than hourly and no more infrequently than monthly. Children will be sponsored in minimum of 1 year blocks.  etc.