Closed

[Frogman]

We have updated our slack channel link – please use the following: https://goo.gl/RQREJ9

[1714187917]

1714187917

[1714187917]

1714187917

[panorama]

panorama, based on analysis of ALL of your previous posts: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1111258;sa=showPosts 6 of 7 were criticisms which we helped clarify in this thread, however one was the following "I registered for the Kyber whitelist before I realized they won't accept US residents, so I won't be participating", thus we will ask you to refrain from participating as ATLANT ICO is not accepting US persons at this time.

To be honest, I don't think you've clarified anything and I still think there are legitimate issues with the tokenization side of your business model. The fact that I'm not eligible to participate in your ICO doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to my opinion, so your comment makes it sound like you're just trying to shut me down (which I don't appreciate).

If you really think my concerns aren't valid, please let me know exactly how you see some of these complex situations playing out. I like the idea of decentralization, so I'd still consider buying your tokens post-ICO if you can ease my concerns.

...and if anyone else thinks my concerns are crazy, please let me know. I'll shut up if no one thinks my arguments make sense.

I was by no means trying to "shut you down", simply implying that the account from which you're posting was likely created to troll us, as this is the only thing it has done since its creation

I answered every one of your posts that contains a question mark, implying a question. Your last post is a statement "Condo boards are made up of people who actually live in the property and it's not easy to sell your ownership on a whim. That completely changes how people will make decisions." You do not reach a logical conclusion here, simply make an assumption, and don't deduce why high transaction/exit costs of a select group who make decisions, with possible biases or ill-will for the many are better than a transparent decision structure of token holders whose every decision is recorded on the blockchain and can be verified and checked.

I think it's funny how you're claiming I'm the one who doesn't reach a logical conclusion.

Not having a lot of previous activity doesn't automatically mean someone is a troll. Everyone's first post has to be somewhere. I'm generally a lurker here, but the only reason I've been active in this thread is because there have been follow-ups directed at me. You don't have to agree with me, but I think it's hard to argue that I'm posting like a troll. If anything, your ICO is one that I've looked at very closely because I was extremely interested in the idea. I've put a lot of thought into this.

Also, saying that you've addressed my concerns about the business model because you've replied to all posts that have a question mark doesn't make any sense. The issues I raised were mostly in the form of comments, not questions. I outlined why I don't think decentralization would really work and you haven't made any counterpoints that convince me otherwise. Does not including a question mark really matter?

Regarding my comment on condo boards - your're right, it is an assumption. I make decisions based on fact when possible, but sometimes you have to make reasonable assumptions to come to a conclusion. I'm trying to think about this using real world scenarios and it seems pretty clear to me that condo owners and token owners would make decisions in a very different way. I thought this was clear based on the progression of my comments in this thread, but I'm happy to outline my thoughts in more detail.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as defensive here, but like I said, I've put a lot of thought into this because I was seriously considering participating. Making money is more important to me than "being right", so I'm happy to change my mind if someone can really show me why I'm wrong.

We're here to answer any questions / concerns, etc - question marks don't matter per se, but it's logical to answer things with a question mark which is something that I attempted to do. Many believe(d) that decentralization would not work, but it keeps on overtaking traditional approaches in various industries. Nobody believed that Airbnb would succeed because who would allow a stranger in their house - look at what happened to that assumption...

I guess time will tell...it'll be interesting either way. Good luck! 🙂

[Sunrise2000]

devs, what your project different from another many real estate projects for example real estate tokens?

[Pollina]

devs, what your project different from another many real estate projects for example real estate tokens?

Thank you for your question

Many users address the same question. We are publishing a comparison chart really soon

[Pollina]

devs, what your project different from another many real estate projects for example real estate tokens?

Thank you for your question

Many users address the same question. We are publishing a comparison chart really soon

Would like to have some info on geographical market segmentation to make decision on whether to get in or not.

Initially ATLANT plans to tokenize propertiesin select transparent jurisdictions
such as continental Europe and UK, and eventually, as our expertise grows expand globally to
capture further market share. Sourcing and diligence for each jurisdiction will be done in
accordance with existing laws and procedures in each jurisdiction. ATLANT is developing a
framework for each country which will be implemented and verified on the blockchain via digital
signatures by respective local authorities.

[ostrogoto2012]

Hi dev do you have any official physical office somewhere ? 

[fdanconia]

Hi dev do you have any official physical office somewhere ? 

we are a distributed team so have a few offices/locations, if you'd like to visit please pm

[mihir]

Nice project.
Keep up the good work.

[Frogman]

Real Estate ICO Comparison Chart

Detailed Analysis of Business Models



Business Model
1. Homeowner borrows cash against property
2. Local vendor provides appraisal (Centralized)
3. Local custodian holds property (Centralized)
4. Homeowner auctions tokens representing property on LAT platform (Centralized)
5. Homeowner can repurchase property from current token owner at newly appraised price (Centralized, potential conflict of interest)
Potential issues
1 No clear reason for using tokenization or blockchain in the business model
2 Unclear certification or legal framework for custodians
3 Insurance and verification for artworks, other assets is not not explicit
4 Potential conflict of interest in appraisal during asset repurchasing
5 In case of default, subsequent management/sale of fractional collateral unclear
6 Unsubstantiated claims that AAPL shares can be currently traded on a nonoperational system


Business Model
1. On own platform Brickblock creates a token for listed ETF, REF, CTF, CMFs
2. Assets are stored in a “digital trust fund”
3. Tokens of each asset on can be traded on the platform
Potential issues
1. “Digital trust fund” custodian is centralized, unclear what happens in the event of default or misappropriation of assets
2. ETFs have a market size of $4 trillion, and substantially higher liquidity than $100 billion cryptocurrency assets. Such instruments would therefore actually reduce liquidity
3. Business model is that of a middleman between a broker and user, and the basis for the claimed cost savings is unclear. Also, the “digital trust fund” will likely have further costs
4. Presale raised funds in non ERC-20 tokens such as ETH, without proper KYC or personal cabinet it is unclear how buyers will be able to receive their Brickblock tokens.
5. Major brokerages Fidelity, Robinhood, etc. currently allow for free trading of ETFs
6. Webpage claims that the product is built on Lisk, Waves, NXT, Hyperledger, Ethereum — these platforms are incompatible, indicating that these claims may be problematic.


Business Model
1. Real tokens will be sold for ETH, subsequent funds will be used to buy real estate
2. Real estate will be sold “when it goes higher” based on unknown “threshold equation” and converted to Real tokens
3. Back to step 1
Potential issues
1. Real seems to be a Ponzi scheme given that there are a finite amount of tokens which are to be used to purchase an ever increasing pool of real estate
2. Unclear legal connection between the Real token and the underlying property
3. Claim that Real tokens are deflationary is unsubstantiated and therefore problematic
4. Real claims “will also ensure that our company will be successful, self sustainable and generate profits from year one in order to have stability as we grow”. This claim is not only unsubstantiated, but appears to possibly contradict multiple securities regulations connected with offerings
5. Unclear why property owners would accept Real as payment and how and at what exchange rate they would receive fiat currency in exchange.
6. Real collects a 10% nonnegotiable fee from all tokenization and income of each property, and targets 12–20% annual returns — 30% is inconsistent with any country’s cap rate
7. No team members have real estate experience, and they also claim a “value approach” that is inconsistent with the angel investing backgrounds of the founders
8. Real estate timing formula on pg. 19 of the Real white paper sells properties after unclear gain, and attempts to time uncertain markets
9. Diagram showing real estate outperforming S&P since 2000 would be completely reversed on a slightly different time frame
10. Claims that system is global, yet property contracts don’t seem to differentiate property register IDs in different jurisdictions, making this claim potentially problematic


Business Model
1. Users who are brokers, landlords or sellers or their verified representatives may list properties on the Rex MLS system
2. Verified users are paid for their listings, while unverified ones pay to list
3. System of sponsorships, and ads charge users additional Rex
Potential issues
1. Most MLS providers are not global or even national because they are able to charge fees for every location, which contradicts the proposed Rex business model
2. “Pool B consisting of 20% of Rex token supply, allocated to listing rewards” — it is unclear how this will be paid out if system runs out of tokens
3. Team seems to lack technical expertise. Only the founder is said to have “technical background”, but the bio offers only sparse details.
4. No clear advantages of storing the MLS database on the blockchain are demonstrated in the white paper
5. Unclear how such a small upstart without any initial data, would be able to displace large behemoths in the space who continue to charge for their data, by offering the data for free


Business Model
1. System lists assets which are transferrable via digitally signed agreements
Potential issues
1. There is no clear link between an asset and tokens or contracts signed, also not clear how said contract will work internationally
2. The proposed business model of benefits to token holders from the “prediction market” and the “exchange” of fiat currency into crypto is unclear.


Business Model
1. Landlords place listings on the website/ios/android
2. Tenants place bids for listings and are able to pay with bank cards, fiat or REST tokens (Relest’s token)
Potential issues
1. Whitepaper contains plethora of grammatical mistakes and inconsistencies making it difficult to read and understand.
2. It is unclear what tokenholders will receive
3. It is unclear why this project needs a blockchain
4. Business model as we understand it from the whitepaper and website does not appear to be compelling, and does not offer clear value to any of its users
5. The platform’s main stated benefit is the ability to pay with REST tokens, it is unclear how this is a benefit
6. System claims to send out SMS confirmation — unclear who would pay for it and how this would work without centralization.
7. Landlord has to specify times for auction periods — if they list each day on auction, and tenant wants to stay for 3 days would they have to win each auction? If so, what if they don’t win the second day?
8. System attempts to monetize features such as chat, calendar, and highlights, all features available for free in competing services


Business Model
1. “Initially the Propy Registry will mirror official land registry records in which transfers of real estate are recorded.”
2. “Propy’s vision is that jurisdictions will adopt the Propy Registry as their official ledger of record such that the transfer of a property”
Potential issues
1. In its current iteration, Propy is a blockchainless fiat solution, per the white paper. Propy is mirroring official property transfer mechanisms, and requiring extra work from the users to comply with their platform. Putting this functionality on Blockchain simply mirrors work that is done in traditional registers and by physical notaries, lawyers, etc.
2. System intends to reward participants and governments with its tokens and reserves 35% of PROs for this, and it appears that this approach may constitute direct payments to governments and/or officials which may not be legal in various jurisdictions. What happens when they run out of PROs allocated to this?
3. Business model would work if governments accept and implement Propy blockchain as their official blockchain — this goal is likely impossible, and even if achievable non-authoritarian governments will allow more than one company to work with its blockchain to perform transfer of ownership
4. No GitHub account as of August 28, 2017, yet on June 29. 2017 on BBitcointalk, Propy claimed its GitHub repo would be published in a week. Also, Propy’s appstore app does not seem to be either decentralized or based on smart contracts
5. The founder’s video on YouTube shows that she does not seem to understand whether Bitcoin or Ethereum networks have smart contracts
6. Substantial amount of tokens not available on the market creates an overhang

[relest]

1. You haven't p2p payments (smartcontract)
2. You use the blockchain for all, including for reviews
3. Your business model is not viable
4. Where is your prototype? 
5. Github code? Really?
   Total         11 repos
   Smartcontracts      2 repos
   Forks from other repos   9 repos

Where is your code related to the platform?

[fdanconia]

1. You haven't p2p payments (smartcontract)
2. You use the blockchain for all, including for reviews
3. Your business model is not viable
4. Where is your prototype? 
5. Github code? Really?
   Total         11 repos
   Smartcontracts      2 repos
   Forks from other repos   9 repos

Where is your code related to the platform?

1. This is not the first time i told you to *read* our white paper before commenting. I understand that you don't like spending time doing work, as your whitepaper is 1.5 pages excluding pictures and explanation how to send you ETH but I urge you to, if you'd like to understand what we're doing.
2. Refer to 1. and also to our previous exchange on this board, I've answered the question, and detailed how our nodes work, and interact with the Ethereum framework.
3. AirBnB and RealtyShares begs to differ.
4. It should be coming tomorrow or at worst in 2-3 days, certainly before our ICO on September 7th.
5. We typically use other repositories, but will post it with the prototype. It's funny that you mention it, given that I can't find anything resembling code or experience in writing it on your site.

Have a nice day

[tiCeR]

If you give concrete examples or usecases in which there would be issues, we'd be happy to address. Either way, we see this as the way forward for real estae - just a question of who does it, and we want to be there first.

An example is where capital needs to be put in to the property. A property manager can't make this decision, so it has to go to token owners for a vote, right? For the sake of this example, let's assume that the property needs a new HVAC system. The existing one is still working, but it's on its last legs and should really be replaced. Let's also assume that a "regular" owner with a long-term view of the property would see this as an easy decision and replace the system.

Well, you've got a collective of strangers who have different interests, knowledge and resources. Some may have bought property tokens for a quick flip and others may have bought as more of a long-term hold. Others may have bought because the building is down the street from them and they just like the idea of it.

When you invest in a stock, you know that management is focused on shareholder value and there's a Board of Directors that provides oversight. With decentralized ownership, you're in a position where you know absolutely nothing about who's invested alongside you and what motivates them. So, when a decision needs to be made, you have to assume everyone is looking out for their own interests but since you don't know what motivates them, it's impossible to know what to expect or if people will vote rationally.

It's easy enough to trade in and out of individual properties, so I might decide that I'd rather not replace the HVAC system since it's in my interest to maintain higher cash flow in the short term and sell my tokens before it actually breaks down.  This is not in the best interest of the property or ownership in general, but it's in my best interest.

Now, maybe I'm the only one who thinks like this...or maybe 90% of the owners do. Even if I'm a "rational" real estate owner who knows that the right decision is to replace the system, the fact that I don't know how others will vote is a big problem. There's real uncertainty.

So, what happens when there's uncertainty? It gets reflected in the value of the asset. Just the fact that potential for issues like this to occur will depress token values relative to the actual property value. It happens with REITs as well...poor management or an inefficient structure can cause a company to trade below NAV.

This is a classic prisoner's dilemma, but it the actual decision outcome doesn't really matter because the fact that the situation exists is what causes serious problems in the first place. I won't even go into what could potentially happen if ownership decides not to replace the HVAC and it breaks down, then you've got to deal with more of an emergency and upset tenants.

I know this could sound like a crazy example, which is why I generalized at first, but I think it's absolutely possible. Maybe this isn't exactly how things would turn out, but I can pretty much guarantee that it's more likely that there's chaos instead of order when it's time to make decisions.

I've got no agenda here and I'm not trying to create FUD...I just don't see decentralized real estate ownership working.

This outlines really well the problems coming with decentralized ownership. This post is probably the best I have read in a long time. I am all for decentralization, I love it, but we must have in mind that there are very complex problems coming with that. I am not saying it is impossible to somehow realize efficient decentralized ownership, but at this point in time panorama hit the nail on the head. If you allow simple access to people with short-term interests when it comes to property, I am not even sure whether anyone can anticipate the real consequences of that. We are seeing this already with nutrition, where high-frequency traders do more harm that good by destroying prices for stuff like rice. I don't even want to know what could happen to the real estate market should all this materialize in a blockchain based decentralized anonymous flipping market.
Again, panorama explained it very very well. It is a lot about expectations in markets. Or - to be more precise - it is only about expectations. And if those are impossible for market participants to be anticipated, the outcome will resemble what we have seen during the financial crisis.

[Btc_1856]

Offcourse decentralization is good for the platform like Real Estate but you have to face a lot of challenges in future. Many other companies will start using Blockchain but you need to recruit more developers in future.

[samantadegrenet]

Sound nice to me atlant will have an internal exchange for any coin or just ATL coin? 

[olcaytu2005]

-snip-

This is by far the shittiest comparison ever. Almost every information is a lie. Please don't spread misinformation like this to lure noob investors.

[icopr]

Good day! Please advise date of Alpha coming out?

[Frogman]

Atlant CEO keynote address at Fintech Week NYC.

[fdanconia]

Offcourse decentralization is good for the platform like Real Estate but you have to face a lot of challenges in future. Many other companies will start using Blockchain but you need to recruit more developers in future.

Of course - we are constantly looking for new talent.

[fdanconia]

Sound nice to me atlant will have an internal exchange for any coin or just ATL coin? 

Our ADEX will trade PTO tokens and ETH.

[judyrob]

the success of the pre sale project will make investors join, I hope this project can bring success. I participated in the bounty of social media while looking further development. hope luck