Closed

[Pollina]

It looks like it's an interesting idea. But how chances to implement it efficiently?
Wish team good luck!

hi Wowcoin. Thank you. Just read our White paper and you'll find out how we plan to implement it efficiently.

I think implementing tokenization side of the business in a practical way is going to be a big challenge and they haven't figured it all out yet. Maybe they'll figure it out in time, but I see some critical flaws based on the whitepaper.

The P2P side of the business seems more doable.

What problems do you see?

There are a few issues, but one of the main things is that real estate is like an operating business, which makes it almost impossible to decentralize in a practical way.

I know they will be hiring management companies, but you still need a knowledgeable decision making authority because things happen in business. I'm not saying that properties will will fall apart, but they won't be maximized, and real estate values are based on capitalizing income. So, by transitioning to a decentralized structure, you are likely to negatively impact the value of the real estate unless you can manage the property at least as well as the person you bought it from. Why would anyone ever want to buy a property token if the value of their investment is likely to go down from day one?

Of course, these are generalized statements, but from what I know about real estate it's too complex to run in a decentralized way.

These are very valid points from panorama I must say. Property management is a lot about efficiency. I am wondering how 25 token holders possessing property together come to a decision whether 30k dollars should be put into renovation this year or next year etc. There are a ton of issues when management gets decentralized.

Maybe they just vote? And other issues will be resolved with time. Important here is the idea to transfer the real estate in the field of blockchain technology, because it is our future

You 're right Marina. Deeper insight on how the management system works can be found in the wp

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[ostrogoto2012]

Hi, my rank has changed! Please change the signature table.

i beleave it is the bounty thread for this kind of questions!

[Frogman]

Hi, my rank has changed! Please change the signature table.

ok, but next time please post in Bounty thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2053308.0

Thank you

[fdanconia]

Pease FOLLOW us on TokenMarket


http://tokenmarket.net/blockchain/ethereum/assets/atlant

[panorama]

If you give concrete examples or usecases in which there would be issues, we'd be happy to address. Either way, we see this as the way forward for real estae - just a question of who does it, and we want to be there first.

An example is where capital needs to be put in to the property. A property manager can't make this decision, so it has to go to token owners for a vote, right? For the sake of this example, let's assume that the property needs a new HVAC system. The existing one is still working, but it's on its last legs and should really be replaced. Let's also assume that a "regular" owner with a long-term view of the property would see this as an easy decision and replace the system.

Well, you've got a collective of strangers who have different interests, knowledge and resources. Some may have bought property tokens for a quick flip and others may have bought as more of a long-term hold. Others may have bought because the building is down the street from them and they just like the idea of it.

When you invest in a stock, you know that management is focused on shareholder value and there's a Board of Directors that provides oversight. With decentralized ownership, you're in a position where you know absolutely nothing about who's invested alongside you and what motivates them. So, when a decision needs to be made, you have to assume everyone is looking out for their own interests but since you don't know what motivates them, it's impossible to know what to expect or if people will vote rationally.

It's easy enough to trade in and out of individual properties, so I might decide that I'd rather not replace the HVAC system since it's in my interest to maintain higher cash flow in the short term and sell my tokens before it actually breaks down.  This is not in the best interest of the property or ownership in general, but it's in my best interest.

Now, maybe I'm the only one who thinks like this...or maybe 90% of the owners do. Even if I'm a "rational" real estate owner who knows that the right decision is to replace the system, the fact that I don't know how others will vote is a big problem. There's real uncertainty.

So, what happens when there's uncertainty? It gets reflected in the value of the asset. Just the fact that potential for issues like this to occur will depress token values relative to the actual property value. It happens with REITs as well...poor management or an inefficient structure can cause a company to trade below NAV.

This is a classic prisoner's dilemma, but it the actual decision outcome doesn't really matter because the fact that the situation exists is what causes serious problems in the first place. I won't even go into what could potentially happen if ownership decides not to replace the HVAC and it breaks down, then you've got to deal with more of an emergency and upset tenants.

I know this could sound like a crazy example, which is why I generalized at first, but I think it's absolutely possible. Maybe this isn't exactly how things would turn out, but I can pretty much guarantee that it's more likely that there's chaos instead of order when it's time to make decisions.

I've got no agenda here and I'm not trying to create FUD...I just don't see decentralized real estate ownership working.

[Pollina]

FYI, to all - the Token Allocation for ATLANT's ICO. It launches Sept. 7, 2017.

https://medium.com/@atlantio/atlant-token-allocation-dea47b4d20a1

[fdanconia]

If you give concrete examples or usecases in which there would be issues, we'd be happy to address. Either way, we see this as the way forward for real estae - just a question of who does it, and we want to be there first.

An example is where capital needs to be put in to the property. A property manager can't make this decision, so it has to go to token owners for a vote, right? For the sake of this example, let's assume that the property needs a new HVAC system. The existing one is still working, but it's on its last legs and should really be replaced. Let's also assume that a "regular" owner with a long-term view of the property would see this as an easy decision and replace the system.

Well, you've got a collective of strangers who have different interests, knowledge and resources. Some may have bought property tokens for a quick flip and others may have bought as more of a long-term hold. Others may have bought because the building is down the street from them and they just like the idea of it.

When you invest in a stock, you know that management is focused on shareholder value and there's a Board of Directors that provides oversight. With decentralized ownership, you're in a position where you know absolutely nothing about who's invested alongside you and what motivates them. So, when a decision needs to be made, you have to assume everyone is looking out for their own interests but since you don't know what motivates them, it's impossible to know what to expect or if people will vote rationally.

It's easy enough to trade in and out of individual properties, so I might decide that I'd rather not replace the HVAC system since it's in my interest to maintain higher cash flow in the short term and sell my tokens before it actually breaks down.  This is not in the best interest of the property or ownership in general, but it's in my best interest.

Now, maybe I'm the only one who thinks like this...or maybe 90% of the owners do. Even if I'm a "rational" real estate owner who knows that the right decision is to replace the system, the fact that I don't know how others will vote is a big problem. There's real uncertainty.

So, what happens when there's uncertainty? It gets reflected in the value of the asset. Just the fact that potential for issues like this to occur will depress token values relative to the actual property value. It happens with REITs as well...poor management or an inefficient structure can cause a company to trade below NAV.

This is a classic prisoner's dilemma, but it the actual decision outcome doesn't really matter because the fact that the situation exists is what causes serious problems in the first place. I won't even go into what could potentially happen if ownership decides not to replace the HVAC and it breaks down, then you've got to deal with more of an emergency and upset tenants.

I know this could sound like a crazy example, which is why I generalized at first, but I think it's absolutely possible. Maybe this isn't exactly how things would turn out, but I can pretty much guarantee that it's more likely that there's chaos instead of order when it's time to make decisions.

I've got no agenda here and I'm not trying to create FUD...I just don't see decentralized real estate ownership working.

if you think that this process is somehow handled better by most coop or condos, i have bad news for you...transparency is key, and this is what ATLANT brings

[panorama]

Yes, I think it would be very different.

Condo boards are made up of people who actually live in the property and it's not easy to sell your ownership on a whim. That completely changes how people will make decisions.

[bustedsynx]

I've got no agenda here and I'm not trying to create FUD...I just don't see decentralized real estate ownership working.

With the world getting smaller and more connected and people working at home and also the uberization of several industries, it will work. It just takes the first one to do it and Atlant is poised to be the first mover.

[panorama]

I've got no agenda here and I'm not trying to create FUD...I just don't see decentralized real estate ownership working.

With the world getting smaller and more connected and people working at home and also the uberization of several industries, it will work. It just takes the first one to do it and Atlant is poised to be the first mover.

I don't see how this is relevant. Can you elaborate?

[fdanconia]

I've got no agenda here and I'm not trying to create FUD...I just don't see decentralized real estate ownership working.

With the world getting smaller and more connected and people working at home and also the uberization of several industries, it will work. It just takes the first one to do it and Atlant is poised to be the first mover.

I don't see how this is relevant. Can you elaborate?

panorama, based on analysis of ALL of your previous posts: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1111258;sa=showPosts 6 of 7 were criticisms which we helped clarify in this thread, however one was the following "I registered for the Kyber whitelist before I realized they won't accept US residents, so I won't be participating", thus we will ask you to refrain from participating as ATLANT ICO is not accepting US persons at this time.

[panorama]

I've got no agenda here and I'm not trying to create FUD...I just don't see decentralized real estate ownership working.

With the world getting smaller and more connected and people working at home and also the uberization of several industries, it will work. It just takes the first one to do it and Atlant is poised to be the first mover.

I don't see how this is relevant. Can you elaborate?

panorama, based on analysis of ALL of your previous posts: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1111258;sa=showPosts 6 of 7 were criticisms which we helped clarify in this thread, however one was the following "I registered for the Kyber whitelist before I realized they won't accept US residents, so I won't be participating", thus we will ask you to refrain from participating as ATLANT ICO is not accepting US persons at this time.

To be honest, I don't think you've clarified anything and I still think there are legitimate issues with the tokenization side of your business model. The fact that I'm not eligible to participate in your ICO doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to my opinion, so your comment makes it sound like you're just trying to shut me down (which I don't appreciate).

If you really think my concerns aren't valid, please let me know exactly how you see some of these complex situations playing out. I like the idea of decentralization, so I'd still consider buying your tokens post-ICO if you can ease my concerns.

...and if anyone else thinks my concerns are crazy, please let me know. I'll shut up if no one thinks my arguments make sense.

[fdanconia]

I've got no agenda here and I'm not trying to create FUD...I just don't see decentralized real estate ownership working.

With the world getting smaller and more connected and people working at home and also the uberization of several industries, it will work. It just takes the first one to do it and Atlant is poised to be the first mover.

I don't see how this is relevant. Can you elaborate?

panorama, based on analysis of ALL of your previous posts: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1111258;sa=showPosts 6 of 7 were criticisms which we helped clarify in this thread, however one was the following "I registered for the Kyber whitelist before I realized they won't accept US residents, so I won't be participating", thus we will ask you to refrain from participating as ATLANT ICO is not accepting US persons at this time.

To be honest, I don't think you've clarified anything and I still think there are legitimate issues with the tokenization side of your business model. The fact that I'm not eligible to participate in your ICO doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to my opinion, so your comment makes it sound like you're just trying to shut me down (which I don't appreciate).

If you really think my concerns aren't valid, please let me know exactly how you see some of these complex situations playing out. I like the idea of decentralization, so I'd still consider buying your tokens post-ICO if you can ease my concerns.

...and if anyone else thinks my concerns are crazy, please let me know. I'll shut up if no one thinks my arguments make sense.

I was by no means trying to "shut you down", simply implying that the account from which you're posting was likely created to troll us, as this is the only thing it has done since its creation

I answered every one of your posts that contains a question mark, implying a question. Your last post is a statement "Condo boards are made up of people who actually live in the property and it's not easy to sell your ownership on a whim. That completely changes how people will make decisions." You do not reach a logical conclusion here, simply make an assumption, and don't deduce why high transaction/exit costs of a select group who make decisions, with possible biases or ill-will for the many are better than a transparent decision structure of token holders whose every decision is recorded on the blockchain and can be verified and checked.

[magiccarpett]

hello,

project sounds good.

can u please explain how the distribution of commission for token holders would work with examples numbers (p2p rental)?

what are the differences between aslant and REAL?

if its clear, i am willing to invest.

[MoonIsBlue]

I'm a bit concerned with the pay-out for the team, it's slightly above 2 million USD per person(total of ~28million USD) for the whole team working on this project assuming the usd value of the token calculated with ETH.

I'll just be watching from the sidelines.

Wish you guys goodluck.

[Frogman]

hello,

project sounds good.

can u please explain how the distribution of commission for token holders would work with examples numbers (p2p rental)?

what are the differences between aslant and REAL?

if its clear, i am willing to invest.

The commission will be distributed proportionally to the share of the token holders.

In a few days we will present a comparison chart of all of the real estate projects that are doing ICOs

Join Atlant Telegram chat https://t.me/atlant_eng

[panorama]

panorama, based on analysis of ALL of your previous posts: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1111258;sa=showPosts 6 of 7 were criticisms which we helped clarify in this thread, however one was the following "I registered for the Kyber whitelist before I realized they won't accept US residents, so I won't be participating", thus we will ask you to refrain from participating as ATLANT ICO is not accepting US persons at this time.

To be honest, I don't think you've clarified anything and I still think there are legitimate issues with the tokenization side of your business model. The fact that I'm not eligible to participate in your ICO doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to my opinion, so your comment makes it sound like you're just trying to shut me down (which I don't appreciate).

If you really think my concerns aren't valid, please let me know exactly how you see some of these complex situations playing out. I like the idea of decentralization, so I'd still consider buying your tokens post-ICO if you can ease my concerns.

...and if anyone else thinks my concerns are crazy, please let me know. I'll shut up if no one thinks my arguments make sense.

I was by no means trying to "shut you down", simply implying that the account from which you're posting was likely created to troll us, as this is the only thing it has done since its creation

I answered every one of your posts that contains a question mark, implying a question. Your last post is a statement "Condo boards are made up of people who actually live in the property and it's not easy to sell your ownership on a whim. That completely changes how people will make decisions." You do not reach a logical conclusion here, simply make an assumption, and don't deduce why high transaction/exit costs of a select group who make decisions, with possible biases or ill-will for the many are better than a transparent decision structure of token holders whose every decision is recorded on the blockchain and can be verified and checked.

I think it's funny how you're claiming I'm the one who doesn't reach a logical conclusion.

Not having a lot of previous activity doesn't automatically mean someone is a troll. Everyone's first post has to be somewhere. I'm generally a lurker here, but the only reason I've been active in this thread is because there have been follow-ups directed at me. You don't have to agree with me, but I think it's hard to argue that I'm posting like a troll. If anything, your ICO is one that I've looked at very closely because I was extremely interested in the idea. I've put a lot of thought into this.

Also, saying that you've addressed my concerns about the business model because you've replied to all posts that have a question mark doesn't make any sense. The issues I raised were mostly in the form of comments, not questions. I outlined why I don't think decentralization would really work and you haven't made any counterpoints that convince me otherwise. Does not including a question mark really matter?

Regarding my comment on condo boards - your're right, it is an assumption. I make decisions based on fact when possible, but sometimes you have to make reasonable assumptions to come to a conclusion. I'm trying to think about this using real world scenarios and it seems pretty clear to me that condo owners and token owners would make decisions in a very different way. I thought this was clear based on the progression of my comments in this thread, but I'm happy to outline my thoughts in more detail.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as defensive here, but like I said, I've put a lot of thought into this because I was seriously considering participating. Making money is more important to me than "being right", so I'm happy to change my mind if someone can really show me why I'm wrong.

[fdanconia]

I'm a bit concerned with the pay-out for the team, it's slightly above 2 million USD per person(total of ~28million USD) for the whole team working on this project assuming the usd value of the token calculated with ETH.

I'll just be watching from the sidelines.

Wish you guys goodluck.

There's no 'payout for the team' the team simply retains some ATL, namely 15%. Dollar amount is unclear as ATL is sold at various levels for ETH, and remainder of unsold tokens is burned.

[fdanconia]

panorama, based on analysis of ALL of your previous posts: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1111258;sa=showPosts 6 of 7 were criticisms which we helped clarify in this thread, however one was the following "I registered for the Kyber whitelist before I realized they won't accept US residents, so I won't be participating", thus we will ask you to refrain from participating as ATLANT ICO is not accepting US persons at this time.

To be honest, I don't think you've clarified anything and I still think there are legitimate issues with the tokenization side of your business model. The fact that I'm not eligible to participate in your ICO doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to my opinion, so your comment makes it sound like you're just trying to shut me down (which I don't appreciate).

If you really think my concerns aren't valid, please let me know exactly how you see some of these complex situations playing out. I like the idea of decentralization, so I'd still consider buying your tokens post-ICO if you can ease my concerns.

...and if anyone else thinks my concerns are crazy, please let me know. I'll shut up if no one thinks my arguments make sense.

I was by no means trying to "shut you down", simply implying that the account from which you're posting was likely created to troll us, as this is the only thing it has done since its creation

I answered every one of your posts that contains a question mark, implying a question. Your last post is a statement "Condo boards are made up of people who actually live in the property and it's not easy to sell your ownership on a whim. That completely changes how people will make decisions." You do not reach a logical conclusion here, simply make an assumption, and don't deduce why high transaction/exit costs of a select group who make decisions, with possible biases or ill-will for the many are better than a transparent decision structure of token holders whose every decision is recorded on the blockchain and can be verified and checked.

I think it's funny how you're claiming I'm the one who doesn't reach a logical conclusion.

Not having a lot of previous activity doesn't automatically mean someone is a troll. Everyone's first post has to be somewhere. I'm generally a lurker here, but the only reason I've been active in this thread is because there have been follow-ups directed at me. You don't have to agree with me, but I think it's hard to argue that I'm posting like a troll. If anything, your ICO is one that I've looked at very closely because I was extremely interested in the idea. I've put a lot of thought into this.

Also, saying that you've addressed my concerns about the business model because you've replied to all posts that have a question mark doesn't make any sense. The issues I raised were mostly in the form of comments, not questions. I outlined why I don't think decentralization would really work and you haven't made any counterpoints that convince me otherwise. Does not including a question mark really matter?

Regarding my comment on condo boards - your're right, it is an assumption. I make decisions based on fact when possible, but sometimes you have to make reasonable assumptions to come to a conclusion. I'm trying to think about this using real world scenarios and it seems pretty clear to me that condo owners and token owners would make decisions in a very different way. I thought this was clear based on the progression of my comments in this thread, but I'm happy to outline my thoughts in more detail.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as defensive here, but like I said, I've put a lot of thought into this because I was seriously considering participating. Making money is more important to me than "being right", so I'm happy to change my mind if someone can really show me why I'm wrong.

We're here to answer any questions / concerns, etc - question marks don't matter per se, but it's logical to answer things with a question mark which is something that I attempted to do. Many believe(d) that decentralization would not work, but it keeps on overtaking traditional approaches in various industries. Nobody believed that Airbnb would succeed because who would allow a stranger in their house - look at what happened to that assumption...

[HomoHenning]

please update slack invite link. it doesnt work anymore