Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[Xian01]

Let us know where to mail the check for a refund of your pre-payment."  

 ... still waiting ...

[wrenchmonkey]

Inaba is still the COO of the company, so the point is valid, as is the "among several other things" part of that post. Making personal enemies of the owners of a company you want to do business with is bad policy in and of itself, but he also sought/seeks to continually defame the company itself, as well as other owners/officers of the company.

If you hate a company enough to talk shit about them on a DAILY basis, you're probably not somebody worth doing business with. His complaint was that they weren't sending the product he paid for soon enough, so they resolved it, and made it a product he hasn't paid for, freeing up a few thousand dollars to go spend on something else.

"Refund given, complaint resolved. Neeeext!"

The problem with this argument is that it completely ignores Josh's behavior which should carry a lot of the blame for Xian01's "shit talking". I find it unbelievable that Josh comes to these forums to roll in the mud with unhappy customers only to turn around and cancel their orders after he gets them all riled up with his own "shit talking". The fact is that it's the trust in BFL from customers like Xian01 that made it possible for BFL to bring ASIC miners to market. Regardless of Xian01's behavior, BFL owes him a debt of gratitude for letting him play with their money for almost a year based on broken promises and outright lies. In many ways, these AISC pre-order schemes are like loans where the interest is paid via mining profits and BFL did not pay their interest to Xian01.

No it doesn't. Because AGAIN, we're talking about the remainder of the sentence "among other things". Go look at his post history. He dedicated a good portion of his time to spreading FUD about the company, about Josh, about Sonny, about BFL as a company, about developers who are working with them to improve the product, etc, etc, etc.

If ALL he had done was told Josh to "Eat a bag of dicks", it's unlikely he'd have found himself in the position he's in now. But that's NOT all he did. He made a hobby of trashing BFL. The insults to Josh were merely incidental to that.

[Bitcoinorama]

I don't think a worse PR move could be imagined.

I don't think so. Op leaned out the window way too far the last weeks. Everyone can read that and judge for himself.

That's really not the point, let's be honest they aren't really a reputable enough firm to be calling the shots here. Criticism is warranted from current customers, although abuse is not.

That said, for all those on this thread slating the OP and laughing about his situation, you're not exactly wearing your thinking caps.

BFL are potentially on a knifes edge here. All you know is what they've divulged to you, which from a bystanders point of view is that they aren't being totally honest and what little they've produced has been for the aid of external public relations.

There has been no proof they have been handling customers funds in any way legitimately. They've openly lied on several occassions, that's indisputable. They also have manging directors who have been convicted for fraud. Whether they've turned a new page(and I believe everyone should be given a second chance), or not it means any dispute raised with trade commissions etc. will be taken a lot more seriously.

It only takes one genuine complaint, certainly a few and they could end up having production halted. If they are found to have behaved in any way outside the law (again - especially with prior conviction for fraud) that could be production terminated. Pre-order funds would be frozen until authorities had finished their investigation, which could take months.

Is that really what you want when time is of the essence and you're already in a race to get a product to market?! Even if production is suspended, what use is it if its delayed another couple of months.

Really, really dumb, this could be their tipping point or the start of it. Angry customers or ex-customers can quite easily take BFL out of the game if they wanted.

[Xian01]

He dedicated a good portion of his time to spreading FUD about the company, about Josh, about Sonny, about BFL as a company, about developers who are working with them to improve the product, etc, etc, etc.

I need to take exception with this. If I have x Dollars invested in BFL pre-orders, what rational reason would I have for contemplating Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt for BFL essentially being six months behind schedule, with no accurate information for delivery, going on almost a year now.

Do I admit to being a total angry asshole for being strung along ? Yes. Has anything I said been a lie, slanderous, or false ? I certainly hope not; if it is I will apologize and issue a retraction.

[Tehfiend]

They didn't set out to get a "free loan" from him. They just decided that the business relationship had become untenable, and chose to end it. If they had set out from the beginning to get "free loans" from people, there might be an issue with that, but this is a result of HIS behavior, not a result of some 'scheemy-scheme' to borrow a lousy 4000 bucks, interest free.

IMO it doesn't matter what they set out to do but what they did do which is punish a justifiably upset customer for expressing their opinion and profit from it in the process by not having to fulfill their end of the deal after holding his $5k for almost a year.

Why exactly do they believe the "business relationship had become untenable"? Were his posts causing more delays somehow? Nope. Were his posts damaging the company? Maybe. Will canceling his order solve this problem? Nope! Will acting professionally and eventually delivering his order solve this problem? Yep!

[k9quaint]

AFAIK this is completely legal on BFL's part, it also makes perfect sense for BFL to do this.

Given that BFL's business will flounder without generating pre-sales to fund their production, they need to continue collecting new investors. They can't collect new investors if the old ones fill these forums with complaints. If Wired or Ars Technica stumbled across one of these threads full of BFL pre-orders shouting and brandishing their torches & pitchforks then BFL is toast.

By publicly evicting a few outspoken critics, they hope to silence the complaints of their pre-order base. If the complaints swell to a critical mass, people might start asking for their money back en masse and BFL cannot abide that.

Plus, Josh's ego won't let the sort of things the OP said pass without some form of retaliation.

In other news, Avalon batch 2 is shipping.

P.S. Maybe you could ask Avalon to sneak in 1 extra unit into batch 2 for you. It might be a PR coup for them

[nottm28]

He dedicated a good portion of his time to spreading FUD about the company, about Josh, about Sonny, about BFL as a company, about developers who are working with them to improve the product, etc, etc, etc.

I need to take exception with this. If I have x Dollars invested in BFL pre-orders, what rational reason would I have for contemplating Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt for BFL essentially being six months behind schedule, with no accurate information for delivery, going on almost a year now.

Do I admit to being a total angry asshole for being strung along ? Yes. Has anything I said been a lie, slanderous, or false ? I certainly hope not; if it is I will apologize and issue a retraction.

You messed up big time matey - purely from a strangers point of view and reading your posts about BFL.

wrenchmonkey - your posts have cracked me up - you need to come and work for me in the UK - but you'd need to tone down the langauge

[tigerfree]

to be honest BFL people are Screwed   every one that chosen BFL shit will regret his life on it as me.

i should have bought Avalon but i wasnt lucky in my choose batch 2 Avalon shipped and 0 in BFL .

[Xian01]

You messed up big time matey - purely from a strangers point of view and reading your posts about BFL.

 I messed up. Fine. Waiting on my refund of $4,698 USD

[Turbor]

Do I admit to being a total angry asshole for being strung along ? Yes. Has anything I said been a lie, slanderous, or false ? I certainly hope not; if it is I will apologize and issue a retraction.

You just overdone things. Even if they are late and made false advertisements, they deserve a little bit of respect. I'm pretty sure they work hard to bring this products to the market. It's just way harder than they expected.

[l3sny]

I just wonder if one can make allegations of criminal nature against BFL.... no matter if they deliver it is a scam as they are 6 months late and the competition is way ahead of them. People have trusted them and lost a lot of money already no doubt. So even if BFL has made a fortune on preorders they have some questions to answer. This should not be left like that...

[tigerfree]

Antics aside, money changed hands and BFL appears to have reneged on terms of the sale. My guess is that the Missouri AG consumer complaints dept. would be a good avenue to pursue if you aren't satisfied with your purchase and negotiations fall through. I have worked with them in the past and they are very fastidious about consumer complaints.
I have no strong feelings about BFL other than they seem to be terrible at PR, have missed several deadlines, but have very attractive products from a price/performance and aesthetic POV.
Disclaimer: I do mine on EMC but I have no connection w/BFL other than almost making a pre-order.

The Missouri AG Consumer Complaints Dept will give exactly as many fucks as his complaint warrants: 0.
Most state laws actually REQUIRE you to offer a refund if you are unable to deliver within 30 days of your initial targeted delivery date (backorders included), alternately, you may offer to extend the time limit, with confirmed consent from the customer, but you're not required to offer the extension. You ARE required to offer the refund.
Go into an AG office and complain that, "A company 'unethically' refunded my money when I complained about the wait time for my order." Be sure to take a video camera, and post the video of their reaction on Youtube for us all to watch!  

They could have refused to take his money for all of those reasons, but it looks to me like they are discriminating against him for some reason.   When they took his money, it was a contract, one that BFL made and accepted.  I hope the discrimination is not based on race, sex or religion or group of association or Xian can actually get the federal government to help with his case.

Nope, he told the COO to "eat a bag of dicks" and among several other things

No, in fact he did not.   Inaba has made it VERY clear that he posts as Inaba when he is his own man.   He is only BFL_Josh (josh zerlan of BFL labs) when he posts under that name.
You cannot have it both ways.

Inaba is still the COO of the company, so the point is valid, as is the "among several other things" part of that post. Making personal enemies of the owners of a company you want to do business with is bad policy in and of itself, but he also sought/seeks to continually defame the company itself, as well as other owners/officers of the company.

If you hate a company enough to talk shit about them on a DAILY basis, you're probably not somebody worth doing business with. His complaint was that they weren't sending the product he paid for soon enough, so they resolved it, and made it a product he hasn't paid for, freeing up a few thousand dollars to go spend on something else.

"Refund given, complaint resolved. Neeeext!"

i dont agree with you wrenchmonkey , when you collect money from people to make product and lie about time they delivery date then some one complain you refund him !!! + you used his money and other to build this project .

[tigerfree]

I just wonder if one can make allegations of criminal nature against BFL.... no matter if they deliver it is a scam as they are 6 months late and the competition is way ahead of them. People have trusted them and lost a lot of money already no doubt. So even if BFL has made a fortune on preorders they have some questions to answer. This should not be left like that...

+1

[Schrankwand]

Considering lost profits... I would probably sue.

But then again i try not to call anyone asshole who i want to deliver to me...

[nottm28]

You messed up big time matey - purely from a strangers point of view and reading your posts about BFL.

 I messed up. Fine. Waiting on my refund of $4,698 USD

I see you are down - and I don't want to knock you further - As far as I know no-one has ever had a BFL refund not paid - you'll get your money I hope soon.

[Syke]

Plus, Josh's ego won't let the sort of things the OP said pass without some form of retaliation.

Josh has threatened customers before. Get on his bad side and he'll make sure your order has problems.

[tigerfree]

Just FUCK BFL go buy ASIC chip better investment now i wish i have extra money to buy some . 

[kernelpanic]

Plus, Josh's ego won't let the sort of things the OP said pass without some form of retaliation.

Josh has threatened customers before. Get on his bad side and he'll make sure your order has problems.

Your refund is coming... Just need a couple of more preorders and they'll have it ready for you.

Pirateat40, where are you?

[Xian01]

https://econsumer.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

Your reference # is 45932276.

[YipYip]

Could we get some more context around this?

Look at his post history. All he seems to do is bitch and moan about BFL. Suddenly he has "faith" that they'll deliver? Where was his faith in all his posts calling them thieves and calling into question an owner's criminal record and questioning their moral characters?

I hope they boot his ass right out into permanent-refuned land, and start swinging the ban hammer hard and fast at all the trolls like him. If you don't like the company, don't place orders with them. End of story. Full Stop.

shut up noob !