Just-Dice.com : now with added CLAMs : Play or Invest

[ranlo]

I always thought x100 offsite was a pretty extreme amount of leverage and remember being surprised at the time that you initially went with that.  I think it makes sense to reign it in, especially since people claim to have offsite many more times clams than can possibly exist.  I appreciate you taking time to explain your thinking.  Thank you.

I always like rooting for players so never utilized offsite so that any wagering gains/losses were dwarfed by staking.  One thing this change does do is increase my de facto exposure to players.  It's cool, I'm not upset, but I wonder if this will give further impetus to staking pools.

My big unanswered question is how does this effect clam?  While that shouldn't be your focus, it is an interesting question.  Will people buy more clam in an effort to increase their exposure that is now lost, or does it now make owning clam less attractive since you can't get x100 leverage on it at JD?

Thanks for a great site!

It shouldn't affect people buying much at all, for the reason in my previous post. The last time I looked, average leverage was 90x+ I believe, so basically, the chance only looks good but has little real-world effect. You will still earn and lose about what you did before.

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[ottodv]

so the max profit has halved, but the amount invested is still above 1,000,000.
Is this because not everybody was max leveraged?

That's the onsite investment, which is not affected by this change.

23:40:33 INFO: 832,344 CLAM were dug up and 747,164 CLAM were staked for a total of 1,579,508 CLAM
23:40:33 INFO: Just-Dice's onsite bankroll of 1,126,021 CLAM represents 71.29% of that amount
23:40:33 INFO: the total bankroll of 41,993,841 CLAM is made up of 1,126,021 CLAM onsite and 40,867,820 CLAM offsite
23:40:33 INFO: the average multiplier (total / onsite) is 37.29x

[dooglus]

People may be hurt by this change but it is a needed one, for clam and for everyone who gambles and invests at JD.

There is a slight difference due to people investing at 1x Kelly or so, but the majority were doing max.

There is a class of JD investor who is inconvenienced by this change: the investor who doesn't want to be bankrolling a dice site at all, and is really only interested in having JD stake his coins for him.

Until yesterday he was able to invest in the bankroll with no offsite. All the big 100x investors would dilute his investment so much that he was taking very little risk from players.

Now however his share of the bankroll has almost doubled as all the 100x investors are now only 50x. And his share will continue to increase as the maximum offsite multiplier continues to drop.

I think the solution for this is to offer staking-only to those people, so you can continue to collect staking rewards (minus the 10% commission) without being involved in the bankroll at all.

It will take me a while to implement the staking-only feature. Until I do, I won't drop the maximum offsite multiplier below 25x.

Note, of course, that even with a limit of 10x on the offsite multiplier, it's still less risky for the investors with no offsite than it was before offsite investment was first offered.

[dooglus]

You and your friends, as you said, succesfully bought majority of digger's CLAMs. Good job.

I don't know if the digger made any private deals. He made none with me. I bought some coins cheap on poloniex when he dumped there. You seem to be implying that something unfair happened but as far as I can see the coins were sold to the highest bidder on a public marketplace.

Before that you blackmailed him with snapshot and new coin. You can easy do that again.

I didn't blackmail anyone. I proposed switching to a new coin and the idea was unpopular. I never threatened anyone with anything.

I don't see any problem with big dump, or is this just your right from now. At these price you still have over 200% profit. Congratulations.

The problem with a big dump is that it moves the price a lot. The dumper doesn't get as much as they expect to, holders find their holdings devalued, etc. The price now is much smaller than it was before the big digger dumped his coins.

It's not clear that anyone has 200% profit. The current price is over twice what the digger dumped it down to, but last I checked the entire buy book at poloniex was around 70 BTC, so if "my friends and I" attempted to dump the coins he sold to us we would probably make a net loss.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. You seem butthurt for some reason, but it's hard to know exactly why.

[ranlo]

People may be hurt by this change but it is a needed one, for clam and for everyone who gambles and invests at JD.

There is a slight difference due to people investing at 1x Kelly or so, but the majority were doing max.

There is a class of JD investor who is inconvenienced by this change: the investor who doesn't want to be bankrolling a dice site at all, and is really only interested in having JD stake his coins for him.

Until yesterday he was able to invest in the bankroll with no offsite. All the big 100x investors would dilute his investment so much that he was taking very little risk from players.

Now however his share of the bankroll has almost doubled as all the 100x investors are now only 50x. And his share will continue to increase as the maximum offsite multiplier continues to drop.

I think the solution for this is to offer staking-only to those people, so you can continue to collect staking rewards (minus the 10% commission) without being involved in the bankroll at all.

It will take me a while to implement the staking-only feature. Until I do, I won't drop the maximum offsite multiplier below 25x.

Note, of course, that even with a limit of 10x on the offsite multiplier, it's still less risky for the investors with no offsite than it was before offsite investment was first offered.

Ahh, you're right. I hadn't considered people that just wanted the staking... makes sense, though. And I agree that allowing people to just stake would be a cool addition.

[andulolika]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. You seem butthurt for some reason, but it's hard to know exactly why.

lol

[Thirteen]

I wish we could keep at least a 25x offsite in the end, even after the staking only option is implemented.
It would have been a good average regarding the results of the poll.

As much as I trust Just-Dice, I'll always be more comfortable having the majority of my coins secured in my wallet .

But overall I welcome the changes. They were definitely needed. 100x and even 50x multipliers were way too much. Good work as always doog.

[andulolika]

I wish we could keep at least a 25x offsite in the end, even after the staking only option is implemented.
It would have been a good average regarding the results of the poll.

As much as I trust Just-Dice, I'll always be more comfortable having the majority of my coins secured in my wallet .

But overall I welcome the changes. They were definitely needed. 100x and even 50x multipliers were way too much. Good work as always doog.

All the utility i saw of the full offsite is to get more profit than investors that believe that it can easily end in a loss, since no bet over 30k was made if all investors were 1x the profit/loss per bet would be the same as if all investors were 100x, yet if all the investors were offsite 0 the house edge should have harder effect since limiting bets. I think no one but dooglus and atleast on the beginning used the feature "properly".
Edit: not sure about the "harder house edge" part so correct me if im wrong.

[SebastianJu]

It's been needed for some time doog and even as an investor I welcome the change. The risks of 100x were too high and could bring about huge losses if max profit was ever won, which was a tall order anyway given the odds of winning that insane amount. Not only is clam more protected now, perhaps people will choose to do more with their clam now rather than letting it sit with a high offsite on JD.

People may be hurt by this change but it is a needed one, for clam and for everyone who gambles and invests at JD.

I don't think it hurts anyone. Illustration (keep in mind people aren't winning 200k+ per roll as it is):

You have 100 CLAM and I have 200 CLAM. We both invest at 100x. You now have 10,000 and I have 20,000 (giving you 33.3% and me 66.6%).
He changes max Kelly to 10x
You have 100 CLAM and I have 200 CLAM. We both invest at 10x. You now have 1,000 and I have 2,000 (giving you 33.3% and me 66.6%).

This affects nothing on the user's end. Either way, our relative ownership of the pool is the same, therefore we both earn and lose at the same exact rate as we did when we were at 100x.

There is a slight difference due to people investing at 1x Kelly or so, but the majority were doing max.

I guess he meant it more like: You have 100 clam and you invest at 100x. You lose big and then you lower max offsite invest to 10%. Now the chance to win big is cut down. Of course the chance to lose big again too but the volatility of profi-loss is way lower which lowers the chance to win the losses back fast.

Yes, i'm aware this works in both directions and luck has no memory.

[SebastianJu]

Agree on the change. Right now it looks like a small fair lottery, not just a dice. And since the last whale was crushing so hard the market, a winner of 400K would crash it too.

What amount of winning would NOT crash the market? I only ask because i occassionally use just-dice as a lottery replacement. With normal lotteries state will take around 50% of the investments as tax already. Only the rest is paid out.

Then what amount would not crash the market?

I guess to prevent that it would be the only solution to claim that the clams will be sold in an auction on bitcointalk. Even holding them at just-dice would crash the price since people would fear you still dump.

[SebastianJu]

People may be hurt by this change but it is a needed one, for clam and for everyone who gambles and invests at JD.

There is a slight difference due to people investing at 1x Kelly or so, but the majority were doing max.

There is a class of JD investor who is inconvenienced by this change: the investor who doesn't want to be bankrolling a dice site at all, and is really only interested in having JD stake his coins for him.

Until yesterday he was able to invest in the bankroll with no offsite. All the big 100x investors would dilute his investment so much that he was taking very little risk from players.

Now however his share of the bankroll has almost doubled as all the 100x investors are now only 50x. And his share will continue to increase as the maximum offsite multiplier continues to drop.

I think the solution for this is to offer staking-only to those people, so you can continue to collect staking rewards (minus the 10% commission) without being involved in the bankroll at all.

It will take me a while to implement the staking-only feature. Until I do, I won't drop the maximum offsite multiplier below 25x.

Note, of course, that even with a limit of 10x on the offsite multiplier, it's still less risky for the investors with no offsite than it was before offsite investment was first offered.

Um, why do you want to do something against that? I mean really, why?

You invented that feature to make people divest and holding clams in their own wallet. Now you found a way that people will do so and you will hold them on justdice artificially.

I don't see why you want to do this. It would be an unexpected side effect of your change to reach your inital goal.

[SebastianJu]

You and your friends, as you said, succesfully bought majority of digger's CLAMs. Good job.

I don't know if the digger made any private deals. He made none with me. I bought some coins cheap on poloniex when he dumped there. You seem to be implying that something unfair happened but as far as I can see the coins were sold to the highest bidder on a public marketplace.

I believe he sold his last coins for deals of 50 bitcoin on a thread on here or so. Just-dice or clams-thread. Those people dumped shortly after doubling their investment in a short timeframe. Well, chance taken i guess.

[SebastianJu]

It was some kind of gambling for investors... at the end i think it can't be considered unfair since one can't claim it unfair that some gamblers take a higher risk to earn higher profits too. Something like that.

I wish we could keep at least a 25x offsite in the end, even after the staking only option is implemented.
It would have been a good average regarding the results of the poll.

As much as I trust Just-Dice, I'll always be more comfortable having the majority of my coins secured in my wallet .

But overall I welcome the changes. They were definitely needed. 100x and even 50x multipliers were way too much. Good work as always doog.

All the utility i saw of the full offsite is to get more profit than investors that believe that it can easily end in a loss, since no bet over 30k was made if all investors were 1x the profit/loss per bet would be the same as if all investors were 100x, yet if all the investors were offsite 0 the house edge should have harder effect since limiting bets. I think no one but dooglus and atleast on the beginning used the feature "properly".
Edit: not sure about the "harder house edge" part so correct me if im wrong.

[djhomeschool]

What amount of winning would NOT crash the market? I only ask because i occassionally use just-dice as a lottery replacement. With normal lotteries state will take around 50% of the investments as tax already. Only the rest is paid out.

Then what amount would not crash the market?

I guess to prevent that it would be the only solution to claim that the clams will be sold in an auction on bitcointalk. Even holding them at just-dice would crash the price since people would fear you still dump.

Hmm, what's something people who win big could do with their JD winnings? If only there were things to do other than JD to use CLAM...

Shall I lay it on thicker?

vvvvvvvvvv

[freedomno1]

Bit late to this but an interesting change leverage is used to maximize return/risks so a lower max risk will still in effect net 0 since its universal.
Changes the distribution of losses for 1x holders and pure stakers but not significantly unless your a major parker of clams.
Staking only does look interesting but if its permanent once active it may not be as attractive an option, either way its a wait and see

Also Seb no 5x's on posts make a giant post

[dooglus]

The site is down after suffering a hardware failure.

The coins in the wallets are safe.

I don't know right now how long it will take to get it back up. I'll post more when I have more information.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Edit: I put up a temporary placeholder site here: https://just-dice.com/ and that's where I'll post updates.

[Evil-Dragon]

The site is down after suffering a hardware failure.

The coins in the wallets are safe.

I don't know right now how long it will take to get it back up. I'll post more when I have more information.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Thanks for the heads up dooglus! Does this mean I have to do other things than be a chat degen? I will survive this cold turkey moment...

[altcoinlinks2]

The site is down after suffering a hardware failure.

The coins in the wallets are safe.

I don't know right now how long it will take to get it back up. I'll post more when I have more information.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

lol Crazy this is what i was looking for Thank you

[Kiritsugu]

The site is down after suffering a hardware failure.

The coins in the wallets are safe.

I don't know right now how long it will take to get it back up. I'll post more when I have more information.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Hopefully it's back up soon, I was about to make a decent-size depo haha.  Thanks for the info doogy.

[bvadi146]

The site is down after suffering a hardware failure.

The coins in the wallets are safe.

I don't know right now how long it will take to get it back up. I'll post more when I have more information.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

thanks for information Doog.. loved JD.