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Author Topic: Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game  (Read 435299 times)
mechs
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September 29, 2013, 06:57:40 PM
 #2821

Before all this with Nakowa winning big and taking the house down. What was the max profit the house ever had since the site started?
1% kelly and had a max profit over 550 BTC

The highest its ever been was 6000 btc.  Though I think it was 7500 btc for a short time.

They are talking about the max profit a gambler is allowed to win in one bet. You are talking about the maximum the site profit ever reached.

The max profit per bet ever as 550BTC at 1% kelly
The highest profit the site ever had was very briefly over 7500.  It was at 5000 for a while before all the volatility started
BitcoinLeader
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September 29, 2013, 07:00:38 PM
 #2822

They should make a graph of the house profit. Then you can see when and how many times within a timeframe it crosses Zero up (profit) and down (loss).

Along with the volume it will show a neat indication of the moving profit and it's associated volume.

DiamondCardz
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September 29, 2013, 07:03:13 PM
 #2823

Before all this with Nakowa winning big and taking the house down. What was the max profit the house ever had since the site started?
1% kelly and had a max profit over 550 BTC

The highest its ever been was 6000 btc.  Though I think it was 7500 btc for a short time.

They are talking about the max profit a gambler is allowed to win in one bet. You are talking about the maximum the site profit ever reached.

Yep, if the max profit a gambler could make went that high, then I'd be very scared about how much money dooglus was being trusted with. He's pretty trusted, but not that trusted. Wink

BA Computer Science, University of Oxford
Dissertation was about threat modelling on distributed ledgers.
drawingthesun
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September 29, 2013, 07:11:03 PM
 #2824

Before all this with Nakowa winning big and taking the house down. What was the max profit the house ever had since the site started?
1% kelly and had a max profit over 550 BTC

The highest its ever been was 6000 btc.  Though I think it was 7500 btc for a short time.

They are talking about the max profit a gambler is allowed to win in one bet. You are talking about the maximum the site profit ever reached.

Yep, if the max profit a gambler could make went that high, then I'd be very scared about how much money dooglus was being trusted with. He's pretty trusted, but not that trusted. Wink

Its only 500,000 btc required, or now with 0.5% max profit, 1,000,000 btc required for a 5,000 bitcoin profit.

I am sure we can trust Dooglus with 10% of all bitcoins.
HowGudAmI
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September 29, 2013, 07:15:17 PM
 #2825

Before all this with Nakowa winning big and taking the house down. What was the max profit the house ever had since the site started?
1% kelly and had a max profit over 550 BTC

The highest its ever been was 6000 btc.  Though I think it was 7500 btc for a short time.

They are talking about the max profit a gambler is allowed to win in one bet. You are talking about the maximum the site profit ever reached.

Yep, if the max profit a gambler could make went that high, then I'd be very scared about how much money dooglus was being trusted with. He's pretty trusted, but not that trusted. Wink

Its only 500,000 btc required, or now with 0.5% max profit, 1,000,000 btc required for a 5,000 bitcoin profit.

I am sure we can trust Dooglus with 10% of all bitcoins.

1 million BTC in one wallet is only worth $127,320,000

Smiley
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September 29, 2013, 07:37:54 PM
 #2826

im losing my mind here. such swings
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September 29, 2013, 07:39:21 PM
 #2827

im losing my mind here. such swings

Haha, learn to love it! Smiley
mechs
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September 29, 2013, 07:43:21 PM
 #2828

im losing my mind here. such swings
He had a 14 win streak just now on 49.5% all max bets.  
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September 29, 2013, 07:47:03 PM
 #2829

his daily volume is nearly 1mio, our expected profit for today is 10k Sad
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September 29, 2013, 07:56:13 PM
 #2830

Swing started again, who's up for 10 BTC too and make a quick 1.25 BTC when profit nets zero again?

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September 29, 2013, 08:30:49 PM
 #2831

I've written a whale simulation program and have run some trials with it (it is only a quick and dirty perl script and I am not a great programmer but it seems to work).

Look at the comments in the code to see what it does. Basically a whale takes on the bank, betting max until one or the other goes broke.

It takes the following parameters:

  • number of trials
  • whale's bankroll
  • house's bankroll
  • maximum bet (as a % of the house's roll
    house edge (this is expressed as a number between 0 and 199, 100 represents a 1% house edge, 101 would be a 2% edge, etc)

It reports results like this:

Code:
bash-3.2$ ./whale_sim.pl 10 25000 25000 0.01 100
roll_num => 5294, bet => 387.43, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 18335.95, jw => 2695, ww => 2599
roll_num => 10742, bet => 3.18, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 14505.12, jw => 5433, ww => 5309
roll_num => 571, bet => 81.16, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 24007.70, jw => 322, ww => 249
roll_num => 4960, bet => 102.77, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 23369.29, jw => 2527, ww => 2433
roll_num => 2166, bet => 409.23, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 20695.56, jw => 1122, ww => 1044
roll_num => 29386, bet => 234.59, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 4441.13, jw => 14801, ww => 14585
roll_num => 8725, bet => 119.31, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 18439.80, jw => 4419, ww => 4306
roll_num => 14902, bet => 407.67, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 7332.98, jw => 7523, ww => 7379
roll_num => 21831, bet => 231.58, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 4008.85, jw => 11005, ww => 10826
roll_num => 619, bet => 200.83, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 24242.92, jw => 346, ww => 273

The legend is:

roll_num - the roll number when the simulation ended
bet - the bet size
jd_bal - Just-Dice's ending balance
whale_bal - Whale's ending balance
max - Just-Dice's highest balance during the simulation
min - Just-Dice's lowest balance during the simulation
jw - winning rolls for J-D
ww - winning rolls for the whale

I've done a lot of runs, and can summarize as follows:

- the house always wins in the end
- volatility is a bitch (when I gave the whale 4x the balance of the house the house was down 80% a few times, but always won eventually)

Code:
bash-3.2$ ./whale_sim.pl 10 100000 25000 0.01 100
roll_num => 15429, bet => 759.48, jd_bal => 125000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 125000.00, min => 20707.98, jw => 7832, ww => 7597
roll_num => 9460, bet => 572.40, jd_bal => 125000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 125000.00, min => 21912.81, jw => 4834, ww => 4626
roll_num => 18783, bet => 364.74, jd_bal => 125000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 125000.00, min => 13347.83, jw => 9519, ww => 9264
roll_num => 29059, bet => 288.24, jd_bal => 125000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 125000.00, min => 8580.01, jw => 14683, ww => 14376
roll_num => 8500, bet => 541.51, jd_bal => 125000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 125000.00, min => 24750.00, jw => 4352, ww => 4148
roll_num => 13605, bet => 984.95, jd_bal => 125000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 125000.00, min => 18119.94, jw => 6917, ww => 6688
roll_num => 4898, bet => 528.69, jd_bal => 125000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 125000.00, min => 19163.66, jw => 2542, ww => 2356
roll_num => 17691, bet => 960.43, jd_bal => 125000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 125000.00, min => 10519.66, jw => 8970, ww => 8721
roll_num => 17107, bet => 585.96, jd_bal => 125000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 125000.00, min => 21547.66, jw => 8677, ww => 8430
roll_num => 32050, bet => 232.41, jd_bal => 125000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 125000.00, min => 10047.04, jw => 16186, ww => 15864

See, with a 100,000BTC starting bankroll for the whale the house gets down to 8580 in trial 4. I've seen lower.

One last sim before my bedtime, this one has a 2% max bet and a 2% house edge:

Code:
bash-3.2$ ./whale_sim.pl 10 25000 25000 0.02 101
roll_num => 6831, bet => 349.12, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 5577.00, jw => 3467, ww => 3364
roll_num => 2518, bet => 817.76, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 14035.39, jw => 1289, ww => 1229
roll_num => 217, bet => 604.93, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 24890.22, jw => 127, ww => 90
roll_num => 6483, bet => 917.34, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 4204.63, jw => 3291, ww => 3192
roll_num => 179, bet => 826.50, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 24830.54, jw => 107, ww => 72
roll_num => 2920, bet => 837.70, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 14270.50, jw => 1492, ww => 1428
roll_num => 713, bet => 236.40, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 20488.12, jw => 377, ww => 336
roll_num => 805, bet => 688.58, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 19237.02, jw => 424, ww => 381
roll_num => 315, bet => 58.77, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 22507.79, jw => 176, ww => 139
roll_num => 4534, bet => 501.58, jd_bal => 50000.00, whale_bal => 0.00, max => 50000.00, min => 12465.50, jw => 2307, ww => 2227

In trial 4 the house goes down to 4204BTC!


Here's the source code for reference:

Code:
! /usr/bin/perl                                                                                                                                                     

#                                                                                                                                                                    
# Simulation of a battle between a whale player and Just-Dice                                                                                                        
#                                                                                                                                                                    
# Purpose                                                                                                                                                            
# -------                                                                                                                                                            
# Theory is that the Kelly Criterion should keep the bank safe from ruin                                                                                            
# (though not from volatility) and eventually always cause the house to                                                                                              
# win the whale's roll.                                                                                                                                              
#                                                                                                                                                                    
# I am interested to see                                                                                                                                            
# - if this is true in practice                                                                                                                                      
# - how long might it take                                                                                                                                          
# - how far the house might fall behind before it happens                                                                                                            
#                                                                                                                                                                    
# Assumptions                                                                                                                                                        
# -----------                                                                                                                                                        
# - Whale always bets the maximum.                                                                                                                                  
# - If Just-Dice's roll drops below 250btc (1% of starting roll), it is all-in                                                                                      
#   (just to give the Whale a chance of winning :-) )                                                                                                                
# - Whale keeps betting until one or the other goes broke.                                                                                                          
#                                                                                                                                                                    
# Purpose                                                                                                                                                            
# -------                                                                                                                                                            
# Theory is that the Kelly Criterion should keep the bank safe from ruin                                                                                            
# (though not from volatility) and eventually always cause the house to                                                                                              
# win the whale's roll.                                                                                                                                              
#                                                                                                                                                                    
# I am interested to see                                                                                                                                            
# - if this is true in practice                                                                                                                                      
# - how long might it take                                                                                                                                          
# - how far the house might fall behind before it happens                                                                                                            
#                                                                                                                                                                    

$num_trials = $ARGV[0];

for ($i=0; $i<$num_trials; $i++) {
    $whale_bal = $ARGV[1];
    $jd_bal = $ARGV[2];
    $max_bet = $ARGV[3];

# bets in the range 0 -> $house_edge -> 199 win                                                                                                                      
    $house_edge = $ARGV[4];
    $report_freq = 100000;

# Keep track of the highest and lowest house balances seen                                                                                                          
    $jd_max = $jd_bal;
    $jd_min = $jd_bal;
    $jd_orig = $jd_bal;

    while ( ($whale_bal > 0) && ($jd_bal > 0) ) {

        $roll_num++;

        if ( $jd_bal < ($jd_orig * $max_bet) ) {
            $bet = $jd_bal;
        } elsif ( $whale_bal < ($jd_bal * $max_bet) ) {
            $bet = $whale_bal;
        } else {
            $bet = $jd_bal * $max_bet;
        }

        $roll = int(rand(200));

        if ( $roll > $house_edge ) {
            $whale_bal = $whale_bal + $bet;
            $jd_bal = $jd_bal - $bet;
            $whale_wins++;
        } else {
            $whale_bal = $whale_bal - $bet;
            $jd_bal = $jd_bal + $bet;
            $jd_wins++;
        }

        if ( $jd_bal > $jd_max ) {
            $jd_max = $jd_bal;
        } elsif ( $jd_bal < $jd_min ) {
            $jd_min = $jd_bal;
        }

        if ( 0 == ($roll_num % $report_freq) ) {
            printf ("roll_num => $roll_num, bet => %.2f, jd_bal => %.2f, whale_bal => %.2f, max => %.2f, min => %.2f, jw => $jd_wins, ww => $whale_wins\n", $bet, $j\
d_bal, $whale_bal, $jd_max, $jd_min);
        }
    }

    printf ("roll_num => $roll_num, bet => %.2f, jd_bal => %.2f, whale_bal => %.2f, max => %.2f, min => %.2f, jw => $jd_wins, ww => $whale_wins\n", $bet, $jd_bal, $\
whale_bal, $jd_max, $jd_min);

}

exit 0;





Seeing 1 million btc being bet today and no profit (nor loss) I was wondering how likely this was. I don't have the answer so if anyone knows?

The above post however showed that the bankroll can go down to -80% so even if that were to happen that would be not an indication of cheating. I think this was with 1% max bet, but still.
chriswen
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September 29, 2013, 09:04:35 PM
 #2832



Seeing 1 million btc being bet today and no profit (nor loss) I was wondering how likely this was. I don't have the answer so if anyone knows?

The above post however showed that the bankroll can go down to -80% so even if that were to happen that would be not an indication of cheating. I think this was with 1% max bet, but still.

Okay, let's see what that would be like.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=242962.msg2778468#msg2778468

Assumptions:
p = 0.495
b = 200 //I'll be assuming 5 000 bets of 200 BTC at 49.5% chance of winning
c = 5 000

Total BTC bet = 1 000 000 BTC
Expected BTC return for gamblers = 990 000 BTC
Expected Profit = 10 000 BTC
Expected Standard Deviation of amount returned to gamblers = 7000 BTC

Expected profit is (10000±7000) BTC
If actual profit was 0, than that would be 1.43 times the standard deviation away from the expected value.  If the profit followed a normal distribution, the probability of this distribution occurring through sheer chance is approximately 15.3% 
mechs
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September 29, 2013, 09:06:02 PM
 #2833



Seeing 1 million btc being bet today and no profit (nor loss) I was wondering how likely this was. I don't have the answer so if anyone knows?

The above post however showed that the bankroll can go down to -80% so even if that were to happen that would be not an indication of cheating. I think this was with 1% max bet, but still.

Okay, let's see what that would be like.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=242962.msg2778468#msg2778468

Assumptions:
p = 0.495
b = 200 //I'll be assuming 5 000 bets of 200 BTC at 49.5% chance of winning
c = 5 000

Total BTC bet = 1 000 000 BTC
Expected BTC return for gamblers = 990 000 BTC
Expected Profit = 10 000 BTC
Expected Standard Deviation of amount returned to gamblers = 7000 BTC

Expected profit is (10000±7000) BTC
If actual profit was 0, than that would be 1.43 times the standard deviation away from the expected value.  If the profit followed a normal distribution, the probability of this distribution occurring through sheer chance is approximately 15.3% 
That is just for this one session - you have to look at all his cumulative sessions and the odds really start looking amazing
nicolaennio
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September 29, 2013, 09:17:00 PM
 #2834

This time he is waging the same amount of money (around 170B), so that there is not even the illusion of a "strategy"...

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HowGudAmI
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September 29, 2013, 09:20:16 PM
 #2835

I could divest now at a loss of only 2.5% from the original amount invested!. Probably the sensible option for the short term but I have kinda grown to love these violent swings.

Smiley
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September 29, 2013, 09:28:03 PM
 #2836

I could divest now at a loss of only 2.5% from the original amount invested!. Probably the sensible option for the short term but I have kinda grown to love these violent swings.

Wow, if I divested now I would have lost 8% of my original amount invested.

Nope, it's a lot more now.
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September 29, 2013, 09:34:49 PM
 #2837

I could divest now at a loss of only 2.5% from the original amount invested!. Probably the sensible option for the short term but I have kinda grown to love these violent swings.

Wow, if I divested now I would have lost 8% of my original amount invested.

Nope, it's a lot more now.
Well, at this volatility you should just sit and wait till you break even again.

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September 29, 2013, 09:35:03 PM
 #2838

So, I have this awesome idea.

Someone should turn just-dice into a stock.  So people can trade it on bitfunder or something.  Now you ask why wouldn't you just do a regular stock?  That's because now people can buy options on the stock.  That would be cool.
mechs
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September 29, 2013, 09:36:54 PM
 #2839

So, I have this awesome idea.

Someone should turn just-dice into a stock.  So people can trade it on bitfunder or something.  Now you ask why wouldn't you just do a regular stock?  That's because now people can buy options on the stock.  That would be cool.
A stock would be based off revenue from commissions and ads - that is a much better deal than being an investor.
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September 29, 2013, 09:41:59 PM
 #2840

So, I have this awesome idea.

Someone should turn just-dice into a stock.  So people can trade it on bitfunder or something.  Now you ask why wouldn't you just do a regular stock?  That's because now people can buy options on the stock.  That would be cool.
A stock would be based off revenue from commissions and ads - that is a much better deal than being an investor.

No it would be a third party who invested in just-dice.
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