Assault weapon bans

[J603]

So it takes 3 months to get your license. 3 months and you can have a military grade automatic weapon. I'd say that's pretty easy.

The license is prohibitively expensive to the point of infringing on my rights. The weapon itself will be extremely expensive thanks to the laws surrounding it. You say pretty easy, I say the cost is ridiculous. That is, if you are interested in the legal route. Common criminals have a much easier time.

A common criminal is not getting an automatic weapon. Unless of course he walks down to the store to get it.

[RodeoX]

Perhaps we are all on the same page after all? I want stricter laws and enforcement of current laws for those criminals who use firearms. Often the use of a firearm in a crime is bargained away in litigation. Prosecutors can drop the weapon charge in exchange for information. I think that should stop.
But for citizens who have no arrest record or mental disorder, the constitution is clear. You have the right to carry a gun and the government has no right to stop you. This has always been the case. In the early days of the U.S. one could not only own the latest military small arms he could own a ship of the line, for example. That would be the equivalent of owning your own complete aircraft carrier.
I'm cool with peoples choice to not own a gun. I'm not cool with people who want to decide for others what they can own. Don't worry. Unless you are trying to kill me you will never see my gun. I no longer consider using my weapon to save anyone other than myself. If I see someone hacking someone else to death with a hatchet, I am getting out of there. It's just not worth the legal risk to help others with a gun. 
 

[J603]

So it takes 3 months to get your license. 3 months and you can have a military grade automatic weapon. I'd say that's pretty easy.

The license is prohibitively expensive to the point of infringing on my rights. The weapon itself will be extremely expensive thanks to the laws surrounding it. You say pretty easy, I say the cost is ridiculous. That is, if you are interested in the legal route. Common criminals have a much easier time.

A common criminal is not getting an automatic weapon. Unless of course he walks down to the store to get it.

Perhaps common was the wrong word. I don't mean the average criminal, but I do mean that the criminal requires no special abilities to acquire one. He simply purchases an illegally modified firearm from any other thug he happens to be in contact with.

That is not how it works. You're talking about incredibly serious criminals, not the majority of criminals. Those criminals will just as easily buy an rpg or a grenade; I guess we should legalize those because why bother if they'll just get it anyways.

Why make it easier for them?

[J603]

So it takes 3 months to get your license. 3 months and you can have a military grade automatic weapon. I'd say that's pretty easy.

The license is prohibitively expensive to the point of infringing on my rights. The weapon itself will be extremely expensive thanks to the laws surrounding it. You say pretty easy, I say the cost is ridiculous. That is, if you are interested in the legal route. Common criminals have a much easier time.

A common criminal is not getting an automatic weapon. Unless of course he walks down to the store to get it.

Perhaps common was the wrong word. I don't mean the average criminal, but I do mean that the criminal requires no special abilities to acquire one. He simply purchases an illegally modified firearm from any other thug he happens to be in contact with.

That is not how it works. You're talking about incredibly serious criminals, not the majority of criminals. Those criminals will just as easily buy an rpg or a grenade; I guess we should legalize those because why bother if they'll just get it anyways.

Why make it easier for them?

I never said a "majority". My point is that it is incredibly easy for a criminal to get a fully automatic weapon, even with the various bans in place. I don't think RPGs or grenades are manufactured to the extent of semi-automatic firearms, so I don't think you can say "just as easily".

"the criminal" implies the stereotypical, average criminal, however I never said you meant the majority. You didn't clarify that you meant a very small percentage of criminals before.

And actually, the RPG is one of the most common weapons on Earth. Grenades are produced even more abundantly. This is pretty obvious, when you think about it, since grenades are one-use only and RPGs need to be replaced more often as they take more stress than a normal weapon.

http://listverse.com/2012/10/02/top-10-most-popular-firearms/

If a criminal has enough connections to get a fully automatic weapon, they will be able to get a grenade or RPG just as easily.

[RodeoX]

If a criminal has enough connections to get a fully automatic weapon, they will be able to get a grenade or RPG just as easily.

Full auto weapons are almost non-existent in the criminal world. With rare exception, crime guns are shitty stolen pistols. As far as an RPG or a frag... I have never even heard of one being found by police. They are basically unattainable for criminals in the U.S.  It is also a useless tool for a criminal. What would a they need an RPG for?

P.S. J603, thanks for arguing honestly. These things are good to debate, and I see you are not one to digress into name calling and such.

[Peter Lambert]

And actually, the RPG is one of the most common weapons on Earth. Grenades are produced even more abundantly. This is pretty obvious, when you think about it, since grenades are one-use only and RPGs need to be replaced more often as they take more stress than a normal weapon.

http://listverse.com/2012/10/02/top-10-most-popular-firearms/

If a criminal has enough connections to get a fully automatic weapon, they will be able to get a grenade or RPG just as easily.

Do you have a source for your statement about RPG's needing to be replaced more? I would think they take less stress since they are firing a rocket which does much of its accelerating after leaving the firearm, while normal guns have to contain the entire force of the charge within the chamber.

Also the list you link is not very good: at least two of the items in the list are paired with the wrong images, they leave out at least one gun which should be on their list (the Mosin-Nagant), and their technical descriptions are just plain crap.

But there is also the problem that the list is not doing a good comparison of the things being ranked. They have the RPG on there as number 4, but that is not because it is the most common grenade launching device, it is because it is basically the only grenade launching device. So while there may be many RPGs lying around, there are many, many more handguns and rifles and shotguns, but since there are so many different models of those the RPG gets bumped up the list.

[TheButterZone]

The only guns that should exist are the ones that cannot be used to assault

What gun would that be? I can assault someone with a Dora the explorer squirt gun if I keep hitting them hard enough. Guns are inanimate objects and are incapable of assault. Only people commit assaults, and they should be charged for it.  

No, you cannot kill someone with a Dora the explorer squirt gun, no matter how hard you pull that trigger. There is a difference between an AK-47 or other assault rifle and a squirt gun.

I think I could kill someone with a squirt gun, although it would be easier with my AK. My point is that the weapon is irrelevant. It takes a person with malicious intent to assault another. They might use a gun or a Bible or a railroad spike or a large dried fish. Whatever they use, they are the assailant and not the weapon. They should face justice without offering them the excuse of "an evil gun made me do it".

Actually, anyone could definitely casually kill someone with a single pump from a Super Soaker. Just fill it up with potassium cyanide or something. A semi-auto shot from an AK (one of many desired and actual infringements in America) is not 100% guaranteed lethal unless you tie the person down and precisely aim it at their brain stem at point blank range.

So once again, name just about anything hundreds of millions of people own, way more lethal than firearms, perfectly free to be used as a murder weapon.

[NewLiberty]

They have the RPG on there as number 4, but that is not because it is the most common grenade launching device, it is because it is basically the only grenade launching device. So while there may be many RPGs lying around, there are many, many more handguns and rifles and shotguns, but since there are so many different models of those the RPG gets bumped up the list.

The RPG is the most common grenade launching device.  It is not the only one:

[Peter Lambert]

They have the RPG on there as number 4, but that is not because it is the most common grenade launching device, it is because it is basically the only grenade launching device. So while there may be many RPGs lying around, there are many, many more handguns and rifles and shotguns, but since there are so many different models of those the RPG gets bumped up the list.

The RPG is the most common grenade launching device.  It is not the only one:

Ok, I think you just made my point. If your army wants a grenade launcher, you pick from among the RPG or the other 4 you listed. But what about handguns? There are many more choices to pick between, so while more soldiers (ignoring civilians right now, which are skewed even farther) are carrying a handgun than a grenade launcher, because there are more choices for handguns they do not show up on the list. The long tail of gun models holds many more handguns than grenade launchers.

[NewLiberty]

Ok, I think you just made my point. If your army wants a grenade launcher, you pick from among the RPG or the other 4 you listed. But what about handguns? There are many more choices to pick between, so while more soldiers (ignoring civilians right now, which are skewed even farther) are carrying a handgun than a grenade launcher, because there are more choices for handguns they do not show up on the list. The long tail of gun models holds many more handguns than grenade launchers.

Yes though there are quite a few more than just these 4 others, your point is valid nonetheless.  There are many times more handguns than grenade delivery devices.  If you lump the weapons categorically you will get different a result.  Statistics often show a different result when viewed differently.

[Rassah]

I just want say hooray for Russians smuggling in illegal contraband, and selling it out of their stores "under the counter." It's the only way I've been able to get kinder eggs in USA.

Also, how long till we have an assault weapon that requires a 3D printer and a trip to a local Home Depot?

[NewLiberty]

Also, how long till we have an assault weapon that requires a 3D printer and a trip to a local Home Depot?

Here's your Home Depot rocket launcher.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdw1XlgsQeg

We can leave the payload to your imagination.

Kids were doing this stuff for decades, pvc just made it easier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4OHzcXmEjk

ATF picks up some home made assault weapons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW95GBqqSQ0

[TheButterZone]

Just wait for the consensus of pro-criminal safety traitors to again redefine "assault weapon" as the Liberator single shot pistol from Defense Distributed...

[PrintMule]

It does not matter which exact weapons you ban or not, unless you ban all of them at once. And that may turn for better or for worse, who knows.

America has long history of violence, gun violence is in your blood. If you take away guns to prevent school shootings and gang violence, people will find other ways. There will be school bombings and school stabbings.
It's in your history, your way of life, your culture. Only solution is to raise your kids as better people, more happy, and set a good example of yourselves, to break this cycle. We must examine where exactly bullies, thugs, psychopaths and rednecks come from and fix that.

About school violence - when I attended school in my country it was a generally happy place. Teachers were not the greatest, many things were lacking, but it was fun to visit the school. There was no excessive bullying and constant HUMILIATION which is exerted at other schools worldwide. It was a surprise for me to see in news reports, how kids are treated around the globe. Of course we had fights, broken teeth, pranks, destroyed personal property, raging hormones and older students drunk while attending lessons . But no constant humiliation. No one tried to take away your lunch money and etc. If someone overdid with insults or force, always some other guy or gal would step up in defense of the bullied. Less fortunate (stupider or poorer if you like) people were made fun of, time to time, but not as a scapegoat.

I often see in news reports of a teen suicides in USA how they would change schools and move towns and etc. It would be better if they stayed and stood the ground, and other around wouldn't be so indifferent and helped.

[NewLiberty]

It does not matter which exact weapons you ban or not, unless you ban all of them at once. And that may turn for better or for worse, who knows.

America has long history of violence, gun violence is in your blood. If you take away guns to prevent school shootings and gang violence, people will find other ways. There will be school bombings and school stabbings.
It's in your history, your way of life, your culture. Only solution is to raise your kids as better people, more happy, and set a good example of yourselves, to break this cycle. We must examine where exactly bullies, thugs, psychopaths and rednecks come from and fix that.

About school violence - when I attended school in my country it was a generally happy place. Teachers were not the greatest, many things were lacking, but it was fun to visit the school. There was no excessive bullying and constant HUMILIATION which is exerted at other schools worldwide. It was a surprise for me to see in news reports, how kids are treated around the globe. Of course we had fights, broken teeth, pranks, destroyed personal property, raging hormones and older students drunk while attending lessons . But no constant humiliation. No one tried to take away your lunch money and etc. If someone overdid with insults or force, always some other guy or gal would step up in defense of the bullied. Less fortunate (stupider or poorer if you like) people were made fun of, time to time, but not as a scapegoat.

I often see in news reports of a teen suicides in USA how they would change schools and move towns and etc. It would be better if they stayed and stood the ground, and other around wouldn't be so indifferent and helped.

My experience at school was also like this.  In a big city in the USA.  Thanks for the advice, we all want our kids to be better people, who wouldn't?  
I remember the Pink Floyd song "Another Brick in the Wall".  Maybe that really happens somewhere?  I suspect it is less common than folks imagine.

[Rampion]

It does not matter which exact weapons you ban or not, unless you ban all of them at once. And that may turn for better or for worse, who knows.

America has long history of violence, gun violence is in your blood. If you take away guns to prevent school shootings and gang violence, people will find other ways. There will be school bombings and school stabbings.
It's in your history, your way of life, your culture. Only solution is to raise your kids as better people, more happy, and set a good example of yourselves, to break this cycle. We must examine where exactly bullies, thugs, psychopaths and rednecks come from and fix that.

About school violence - when I attended school in my country it was a generally happy place. Teachers were not the greatest, many things were lacking, but it was fun to visit the school. There was no excessive bullying and constant HUMILIATION which is exerted at other schools worldwide. It was a surprise for me to see in news reports, how kids are treated around the globe. Of course we had fights, broken teeth, pranks, destroyed personal property, raging hormones and older students drunk while attending lessons . But no constant humiliation. No one tried to take away your lunch money and etc. If someone overdid with insults or force, always some other guy or gal would step up in defense of the bullied. Less fortunate (stupider or poorer if you like) people were made fun of, time to time, but not as a scapegoat.

I often see in news reports of a teen suicides in USA how they would change schools and move towns and etc. It would be better if they stayed and stood the ground, and other around wouldn't be so indifferent and helped.

Pretty spot on. Unfortunately banning is never an answer, much less when the problem is rooted in culture. You have an example here, how people that call themselves "libertarians" are praising guns like they are some kind of freedom machine. In fact, for most of people in the civilized world, guns are just evil tools that bring a massive amount of suffering in the world; for many americans, guns are a liberation tool that made them free in recent history, that's a deeply rooted thought - just look at how they speak about that outdated book called constitution they look at it was some sort of sacred theology book.

Making a long story short, a lot of US folks do not learn to HATE guns in their youth, in fate is quite the opposite, many in the US raise their children to LOVE guns (of course most will say they only teach them to respect them, blah blah blah).

A first step would be for people to realize that carrying a gun is always something deeply sad and unfortunate that should be avoided AT ALL COSTS, instead of looking at them like they were cool toys with some kind of magical "freedom power" in them.

[superresistant]

There is no way I will ever understand why people still defend the right of carrying weapons.

[NewLiberty]

There is no way I will ever understand why people still defend the right of carrying weapons.

Fix this problem first, please.
http://rainn.org/

After you end violence, then comes the time to contemplate removing the abilities of self defense.

[superresistant]

There is no way I will ever understand why people still defend the right of carrying weapons.

After you end violence, then comes the time to contemplate removing the abilities of self defense.

You cannot remove violence from society because the society itself create it.
add guns = add more violence

http://rainn.org/

btw :
overprotect children = make them more attractive to pedo + raise them too feel like victim

[RodeoX]

You cannot remove violence from society because the society itself create it.
add guns = add more violence

It's not that simple. Here in the US you can gauge your risk of being shot by the gun laws. The more restrictive, the more likely you will be killed with a gun per capita. New York, LA, and Chicago are the most dangerous places and you have the least gun rights. In rural parts of the US murder is almost unheard of and most people you meet have at least one gun.
I saw another example in the Balkans back in the 90's. The Serbs were letting the unarmed Croats have it. They would sweep in to a town before dawn, then the slaughter would begin.  Once the Croats were armed and trained the killing came to a halt. The Serbs militias had little interest in fighting armed men.