Assault weapon bans

[Spendulus]

Only difference you could possibly make would be to shoot some army guy in a bullet-proof vest, before they take you down using superior firepower.

Look at Afghanistan for an example of how well superior firepower serves the US.

M

The genocide piece is somewhat held at bay as long as we retain our gun rights.  Without them, it'd be one helluva scary place.
M

But there's no genocide in question. If they would like to massacre everyone, they would do fine.
Also it's a foreign country. Imagine if US decided to crackdown on it's own citizens. Nowhere to hide.
And finally do your gun rights allow you to carry an rpg or some grenades, and would you strap a suicide vest on yourself and blow some tank?

These contrived instances of opposition between the individual and the state cannot begin to adequately illustrate the long term consequences of an armed vs an unarmed citizenry.

I would suggest the first difference is attitude.  An unarmed public are subjects.  Once they get that attitude, controlling them is very easy, even without the government pointing guns in their direction.

Almost all control or influence which occurs by way of firearms, occurs subtly and without the guns actually being used. 

[Biomech]

Japan is a nation. Maryland is a state within a nation. Duh.

They are spelled differently and have occupants with different last names, but how about offering some distinctions that make a difference, please? Or say why your distinction matters?  Both governmental entities are capable of enforcing their laws, yes?

Historically, and by meaning even here in the neo-roman empire, Nation and State mean the same thing. Japan is a STATE. The use by FirstAscent has unfortunately become rather widespread, I suspect by design of some seriously warped people, but is still incorrect. The STATES within the United States charter are supposed to be the sovereign entities, with the Confederation headquartered in mordo... I mean the District of Columbia being just that: a confederation of free states. This was essentially the case before the massive treason by Abraham Lincoln's government.

In modern times, despite a fair amount of lip service to a dead letter known as the United States Constitution, The United States of America has become an Empire with 50 provinces and numerous colonies and garrisons.

[Biomech]

Only difference you could possibly make would be to shoot some army guy in a bullet-proof vest, before they take you down using superior firepower.

Look at Afghanistan for an example of how well superior firepower serves the US.

M

The genocide piece is somewhat held at bay as long as we retain our gun rights.  Without them, it'd be one helluva scary place.
M

But there's no genocide in question. If they would like to massacre everyone, they would do fine.
Also it's a foreign country. Imagine if US decided to crackdown on it's own citizens. Nowhere to hide.
And finally do your gun rights allow you to carry an rpg or some grenades, and would you strap a suicide vest on yourself and blow some tank?

Compared to the alternative, it'd be an option to consider.  I certainly wouldn't just stand around and let myself and mine be slaughtered.

M

I certainly wouldn't go the suicide route.

But I would run for the hills, and keep my powder dry. If the SHTF and the civil government breaks down completely, the cities are going to be horrible places. I'm a country boy at heart, and the mountains and forests are my friends. I would encourage anybody to learn outdoor survival as a hobby and a mode of preparedness in the event of massive breakdown of the existing order. It's "power" is based on subtle threat and a great deal of propaganda and outright lies. It can't stand. No Empire ever has, and this one is vastly overextended. I'm not overly concerned about these assault rifle bans, as they are absurd. Most criminal gun violenc is commited with handguns, as are most defensive shootings. The PTB go after military style rifles for basically two reasons. One, they elicit a visceral response. They look mean.  And two, even though they account for so little of the crime rate as to be negligible, in a guerilla war, they would be incredibly useful to the opfor. For those woh think that government exists to protect us, WE are the opfor in their eyes and most of them don't even bother to hide it any more. If you are my age, you will easily recall when cops were not outfitted like light infantry, because they were not intended to be an army of occupation. Now they are, and now they are. In the event of a general break down of the ruling apparatus, and it's resultant crackdown, the citizen is not going to be battling the army, but the police. The Armies are already spread so thin on so many fronts that they would not be able to recall them in sufficient force fast enough to matter.

Guns are only a small part of the equation, and if the need arises for me to have a fully automatic weapon (not a semi that looks cool), I'm sure there will be plenty of the lying on the ground. In the meantime, it would be nice to have a couple of the semi auto versions of the AK simply for practice, both in teardown and shooting. It pays to be familiar with the weapons you may have to use.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I've had many discussions with tankers about what they fear. Almost to a man, it's a guy with a HE grenade sneaking up on them. NOT other tanks, NOT artillery, and NOT RPG's. No army can stand for long against an angry, armed populace. Yes, they can and likely will kill a great many of said people, but in the end they are savagely outnumbered, and they know it. That is why they put so much effort into raising non issues and downplaying real ones. It's called "engineering consent".

[mdude77]

Compared to the alternative, it'd be an option to consider.  I certainly wouldn't just stand around and let myself and mine be slaughtered.

I certainly wouldn't go the suicide route.

It's a matter of perspective, really.  If you firmly believe you'd save x number of your family and take out x+y number of them where y is significantly larger than x, I could see why people would choose it.  I think the distinguishing factor is how it's accomplished.  Some would argue that taking on an army guerrilla style is suicidal.  You might eventually lose, but the losses and moral damage done to the enemy would be horrendous.   Is that suicide?  Tying a bomb to yourself and taking out the same number all at once accomplishes the same thing, but feels different.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I've had many discussions with tankers about what they fear. Almost to a man, it's a guy with a HE grenade sneaking up on them. NOT other tanks, NOT artillery, and NOT RPG's. No army can stand for long against an angry, armed populace. Yes, they can and likely will kill a great many of said people, but in the end they are savagely outnumbered, and they know it. That is why they put so much effort into raising non issues and downplaying real ones. It's called "engineering consent".

Very well stated.  +1.

M

[Spendulus]

....That is why they put so much effort into raising non issues and downplaying real ones. It's called "engineering consent".

It's interesting that an argument by the anti gun mob is "well those little ar15 and ak47 pea shooters aren't going to do you any good against a real army, dude"....

can be so easily answered by...

"so why do the forces of government worry about them?"

BWHAHAHAHAHA!!!

....Oh, and for what it's worth, I've had many discussions with tankers about what they fear. Almost to a man, it's a guy with a HE grenade sneaking up on them. NOT other tanks, NOT artillery, and NOT RPG's.

Oh, well.  So they haven't figured out our little robot toys might...

Never mind.

[zwanzig20]

 

[zwanzig20]

    One in three people in the U.S. know someone who has been shot.1
    On average, 32 Americans are murdered with guns every day and 140 are treated for a gun assault in an emergency room.2
    Every day on average, 51 people kill themselves with a firearm, and 45 people are shot or killed in an accident with a gun.3
    The U.S. firearm homicide rate is 20 times higher than the combined rates of 22 countries that are our peers in wealth and population.4
    Although guns can and have been used successfully in self-defense in the home, a gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used to kill or injure in a domestic homicide, suicide, or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.5



1Goss, Kristin, “Disarmed: The Missing Movement for Gun Control,” Princeton University Press, 2006. p. 2

2The Brady Campaign averaged the most recent three years of data from death certificates (2008-2010) and estimates of emergency room admissions (2009-2011) available via CDC’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control’s Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System, http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/index.html. Data retrieved 12/28/12.

3The Brady Campaign averaged the most recent three years of data from death certificates (2008-2010) and estimates of emergency room admissions (2009-2011) available via CDC’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control’s Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System, http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/index.html. Data retrieved 12/28/12.

4Richardson, Erin G., and David Hemenway, “Homicide, Suicide, and Unintentional Firearm Fatality: Comparing the United States With Other High-Income Countries, 2003,” Journal of Trauma, Injury, Infection, and Critical Care, published online ahead of print, June 2010

5Kellermann, Arthur L.MD, MPH, et al. “Injuries and Deaths Due to Firearms in the Home.” Journal of Trauma, Injury, Infection, and Critical Care 45 (1998): 263-67

[Spendulus]

    One in three people in the U.S. know someone who has been shot.1
    On average, 32 Americans are murdered with guns every day and 140 are treated for a gun assault in an emergency room.2
    Every day on average, 51 people kill themselves with a firearm, and 45 people are shot or killed in an accident with a gun.3
    The U.S. firearm homicide rate is 20 times higher than the combined rates of 22 countries that are our peers in wealth and population.4
    Although guns can and have been used successfully in self-defense in the home, a gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used to kill or injure in a domestic homicide, suicide, or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.5

....

Well, you just done proved we need to take all those nasty guns away from cops and soldiers.

"And the world...
would be a HAPPY place..
for you...
and me...
you just wait...
and SEE"

BWHAHAHAHA!

[zwanzig20]

    One in three people in the U.S. know someone who has been shot.1
    On average, 32 Americans are murdered with guns every day and 140 are treated for a gun assault in an emergency room.2
    Every day on average, 51 people kill themselves with a firearm, and 45 people are shot or killed in an accident with a gun.3
    The U.S. firearm homicide rate is 20 times higher than the combined rates of 22 countries that are our peers in wealth and population.4
    Although guns can and have been used successfully in self-defense in the home, a gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used to kill or injure in a domestic homicide, suicide, or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.5

....

Well, you just done proved we need to take all those nasty guns away from cops and soldiers.

"And the world...
would be a HAPPY place..
for you...
and me...
you just wait...
and SEE"

BWHAHAHAHA!

Cops and soldiers in Germany have torough psychological test before you are able to become one. Can't say that for the general population.

[mdude77]

   One in three people in the U.S. know someone who has been shot.1
    On average, 32 Americans are murdered with guns every day and 140 are treated for a gun assault in an emergency room.2
    Every day on average, 51 people kill themselves with a firearm, and 45 people are shot or killed in an accident with a gun.3
    The U.S. firearm homicide rate is 20 times higher than the combined rates of 22 countries that are our peers in wealth and population.4
    Although guns can and have been used successfully in self-defense in the home, a gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used to kill or injure in a domestic homicide, suicide, or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.5

FYI, the Brady Campaign, and other anti-gun/anti-freedom organizations are known to repeat stats that are blatantly misleading or outright lies.

As I've said before, stats can be shown to support anything.  

What the above stats aren't stating is how many of those are caused by criminals and LEO's, neither of which abide by so called gun control laws.

Lastly, as we've said multiple times here, guns don't kill.  People do.

M

[zwanzig20]

   One in three people in the U.S. know someone who has been shot.1
    On average, 32 Americans are murdered with guns every day and 140 are treated for a gun assault in an emergency room.2
    Every day on average, 51 people kill themselves with a firearm, and 45 people are shot or killed in an accident with a gun.3
    The U.S. firearm homicide rate is 20 times higher than the combined rates of 22 countries that are our peers in wealth and population.4
    Although guns can and have been used successfully in self-defense in the home, a gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used to kill or injure in a domestic homicide, suicide, or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.5

FYI, the Brady Campaign, and other anti-gun/anti-freedom organizations are known to repeat stats that are blatantly misleading or outright lies.

As I've said before, stats can be shown to support anything.  

What the above stats aren't stating is how many of those are caused by criminals and LEO's, neither of which abide by so called gun control laws.

Lastly, as we've said multiple times here, guns don't kill.  People do.

M

But that is part of the problem,even if criminals are responsible for 99% of the gun victims,thise criminals are able to get those guns a lot easier in the United States. And I agree with your final sentence, but it also captures my concern: I don't trust people enough to make guns widespread available,especially if the line between rich and poor is so large.

[mdude77]

FYI, the Brady Campaign, and other anti-gun/anti-freedom organizations are known to repeat stats that are blatantly misleading or outright lies.

As I've said before, stats can be shown to support anything.  

What the above stats aren't stating is how many of those are caused by criminals and LEO's, neither of which abide by so called gun control laws.

Lastly, as we've said multiple times here, guns don't kill.  People do.

M

But that is part of the problem,even if criminals are responsible for 99% of the gun victims,thise criminals are able to get those guns a lot easier in the United States. And I agree with your final sentence, but it also captures my concern: I don't trust people enough to make guns widespread available,especially if the line between rich and poor is so large.

It's illegal to use a gun for criminal purposes.  It's illegal to possess or own a gun if you are convicted felon.  We should focus on education and gun safety, not removing guns from the law abiding folks.

M

[TheButterZone]

   One in three people in the U.S. know someone who has been shot.1
    On average, 32 Americans are murdered with guns every day and 140 are treated for a gun assault in an emergency room.2
    Every day on average, 51 people kill themselves with a firearm, and 45 people are shot or killed in an accident with a gun.3
    The U.S. firearm homicide rate is 20 times higher than the combined rates of 22 countries that are our peers in wealth and population.4
    Although guns can and have been used successfully in self-defense in the home, a gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used to kill or injure in a domestic homicide, suicide, or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.5

FYI, the Brady Campaign, and other anti-gun/anti-freedom organizations are known to repeat stats that are blatantly misleading or outright lies.

As I've said before, stats can be shown to support anything.  

What the above stats aren't stating is how many of those are caused by criminals and LEO's, neither of which abide by so called gun control laws.

Lastly, as we've said multiple times here, guns don't kill.  People do.

M

But that is part of the problem,even if criminals are responsible for 99% of the gun victims,thise criminals are able to get those guns a lot easier in the United States. And I agree with your final sentence, but it also captures my concern: I don't trust people enough to make guns widespread available,especially if the line between rich and poor is so large.

Criminals are responsible for 100% of "the gun victims". Just because you wear a badge, uniform, or otherwise work for the government, doesn't mean you're not a criminal. The only way to eliminate the black market is to extinct the human race, which will also take care of all the criminals hiding behind effectively absolute power/privilege granted by the totalitarian state to use their guns everywhere, any way.

Nice elitist tagline, there.

[Biomech]

 

stats from the brady foundation are highly suspect, but that aside, even in their logo they show HANDGUNS!!!

Not military style rifles. Rifles are for hunting or serious military/paramilitary operations. They are not particularly easy to conceal and require significant skill vs. a handgun. Yet they don't go after handguns.

Why?

Too many people have handguns and they HOPE that the collectors and hobbyists will buckle under, even though such weapons are used in LESS THAN TWO PERCENT of crimes involving guns.

[TheButterZone]

I wouldn't say rifles require significant skill vs a handgun. Most handguns don't have shoulder stocks or easily attachable scopes, like most rifles (exceptions would be stockless submachine guns, shorty shotguns). If you're not shooting your handgun on a rest, you don't have 3-point stability of the shoulder, at best only 2 (both arms), and you have to train extensively to make ranged shots with just sights.

So if anything, semi-auto rifles (without the less-lethal "spray and pray and hit almost nobody in a vital spot" capacity) may be the only deterrent to genocide, other than those in the government who will honor their oath and oppose genocide from within the belly of the beast with mere handguns (or at least use their handguns to fight their way to rifles and other weapons).

Some gun control/criminal safety advocates are merely reenacting the Niemoller poem describing part of the Nazis' blueprint for genocide (substitutions made)...

   First they came for the Constitutionally-protected full-auto rifles,
    and I didn't speak out because I didn't own one.

    Then they came for the Constitutionally-protected semi-auto rifles that appear to be full-auto from a distance but aren't,
    and I didn't speak out because I didn't own one.

    Then they came for the Constitutionally-protected handguns, shotguns, bolt action .22s, and all other guns firing cased ammunition,
    and I didn't speak out because I didn't own any.

    Then they came for my originally Constitutionally-protected (but practically useless in the modern age) flintlock rifle and pinfire revolver,
    and there was no one left to speak for me.

[Rassah]

Only difference you could possibly make would be to shoot some army guy in a bullet-proof vest, before they take you down using superior firepower.

You forget, that guy in a bullet-proof vest who has superior firepower? His salary is paid by the guy shooting him in the vest.

[Spendulus]

....

Cops and soldiers in Germany have torough psychological test before you are able to become one. Can't say that for the general population.

Wait, now you believe that something like a psych test would be a good measure of whether someone ought to tote firearms?

?

IF THAT WERE SO, then the psych test would be in line with the motivations of the government, not the people.

OBEY.....

[Spendulus]

.....It's illegal to possess or own a gun if you are convicted felon.....

Not in all cases and places, for example Texas a convicted felon is able to have guns for self defense in his home.

I think that law days from the Indian days...

[Rassah]

  

Woah! What's up with Russia? Don't they have pretty strict gun control policies, with restrictions and licenses and all that?

Plus, I really think we should change the slogan to, "If you make owning guns criminal, only people with 3D printers will own guns" 

[Mike Christ]

Woah! What's up with Russia? Don't they have pretty strict gun control policies, with restrictions and licenses and all that?

Whaaaat?

No.  Impossible; there's legislation against that.  What?  Whaaaat?

Are you saying the law isn't working?  Impossible!

No!  Nooooo!!!

Obviously the graphic is conservative, and therefore lying.  Red herring.  Strawman.  Explained by these charts: didn't see them?  That's because I don't need charts.  Look at the monkey:



He's probably endangered, thanks to guns.  Global warming.

Checkmate; liberals win again