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[joele]

The price is 0.15/100Mh/s or 0.0015/Mh/s, that is fair price if the dividend will start to pay next week, but if payment is after 2 months with 15% increase difficulty then this is too expensive.

[1714007628]

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[Nemesis]

The price is 0.15/100Mh/s or 0.0015/Mh/s, that is fair price if the dividend will start to pay next week, but if payment is after 2 months with 15% increase difficulty then this is too expensive.

You will be luck to have mining of 10TH/s in 2 months

LOL keep wishing ppl. Fools and their money soon be parted

[Vbs]

How come I can't find anywhere what hardware have you guys already ordered and the time for the mining to start?

If the network reaches something like 500TH in August/September, everyone's shares just take a hit of ~50% value without you guys even starting!

[SOSLOVE868]

This just crazy ,How could folks invest in a company that might start mining in mid-2014 or never.....

[Vbs]

This just crazy ,How could folks invest in a company that might start mining in mid-2014 or never.....

Even if they started mining today... The break-even point is ~266.3 days. The big problem is people just disregard the average difficulty increase per day. You can see that effect on the "...considering reduction" rows. And this is without taking into account imminent stuff like this: http://thegenesisblock.com/latest-shipment-of-avalon-asics-could-increase-network-hashrate-by-500/

http://www.coinish.com/calc/#

[SOSLOVE868]

This just crazy ,How could folks invest in a company that might start mining in mid-2014 or never.....

Even if they started mining today... The break-even point is ~266.3 days. The big problem is people just disregard the average difficulty increase per day. You can see that effect on the "...considering reduction" rows. And this is without taking into account imminent stuff like this: http://thegenesisblock.com/latest-shipment-of-avalon-asics-could-increase-network-hashrate-by-500/

http://www.coinish.com/calc/#

It is acceptable for that recovery date ,but mining may start on 2014 or never is the key concern and their order are based on BFL/Bitfurry is another concern.
BFL?  refer to its history ,we know it is beautiful unicorn....needless to say....
about the Bitfurry , from my personal opinion I do not see any evidence shows it will be next ASICMINER, more look like next BFL...(May be I am wrong)

However, today is the big wining day of Labrat mining, since it sold over 1500 btc in Bitfunder... Good luck to those lucky buyers.

[Factory]

I said it earlier in this thread and I'll say it again:

I find it very hard to imagine a scenario in which investors actually profit from this offering. This is merely a method for the issuer to re-sell BFL pre-orders at a large markup to profit while revealing themselves of the majority of the risk. Outside of the facts, the rest of the contract is mostly filler language used to entice potential investors.

[DobZombie]

I have orders placed going back to Sept with 3 people selling me their gear second hand as soon as they get it (June and July orders)  This total hashrate is in the 2-3TH range I believe...

Who on Earth would sell that much hasrate right now?  This infers 1 of three things...

1) By "buying second hand" you mean you're getting some devices from BFL that you ordered but didn't pay for yet

2) You're buying the devices second hand and paying a ridiculous markup

3) The person you're purchasing the minirigs from is completely retarded and is selling an item they purchased 12 months ago, that they've only just received.

I'm not trying to be aggressive here, I'm just attempting to understand the plan.

also

When will dividends begin to pay?

and...

It's been asked a few times already, but when are you expecting to receive the other 8TH/s from BFL?

[SOSLOVE868]

I said it earlier in this thread and I'll say it again:

I find it very hard to imagine a scenario in which investors actually profit from this offering. This is merely a method for the issuer to re-sell BFL pre-orders at a large markup to profit while revealing themselves of the majority of the risk. Outside of the facts, the rest of the contract is mostly filler language used to entice potential investors.

It is the day for LabRat Mining to celebrating its IPO...and a day that naive investors get pay for their lessons.

Personally, I think this really a good business ,whether you have orders in hand or not ,just seat at home typing few thousand words and it will soon become few thousand BTCs.... 

Great Business model.....

[||bit]

This just crazy ,How could folks invest in a company that might start mining in mid-2014 or never.....

Even if they started mining today... The break-even point is ~266.3 days. The big problem is people just disregard the average difficulty increase per day. You can see that effect on the "...considering reduction" rows. And this is without taking into account imminent stuff like this: http://thegenesisblock.com/latest-shipment-of-avalon-asics-could-increase-network-hashrate-by-500/

http://www.coinish.com/calc/#

If you were just starting mining with new asic hardware now, what percentage of resulting mined bitcoins should you re-invest in the whole operation to sustain profitability to offset the affects of difficulty increase, and maybe make a bit more headway?

Let's assume it was something like 70% (we can say power costs is part of this). Then wouldn't that be like saying the 30% which you don't re-invest are like dividends you pay to yourself - other than you own the hardware in this case. So, if you took in 30%, what MH value might that equate to per bitcoin invested? Then how does THAT number compare to $15/100MH? And consider that the portion of the hash rate you don't receive as dividends may at least in some significant part going to increase the hashing power of the system.

I'm simply presenting a perspective.

Caveats: I'm not sure what actual numbers would be more correct. Difficulty levels might increase in ways that can't be matched by any plan (other than dumping in new money from outside the system). And it's probably not something to overlook that you don't own the hardware.

[SOSLOVE868]

Except you didn't do the math where your same .15 @ 100MH grow (without you putting money into it) to a 200MH bond and greater depending on difficulty, hardware availability, and investor interest.

The people who invest first get the lowest price and a continually growing hashrate... The boats leaving.

The problem is you may not see any dividend before 2015....why should you bother with its rate of return?
Possibly nothing in 2 years time or instant less return as 26% with ASICMINER or Coinlender , Please make your choice?

In fact ,gives me your BTC , I promised you that in 2015 I will mining at 1000M/HASH @today's 0.15BTC per contract...I promise it to you ..... of course I would not to doing that anyway ,I just want to let you know that TIME=RISK.

[Bargraphics]

Except you didn't do the math where your same .15 @ 100MH grow (without you putting money into it) to a 200MH bond and greater depending on difficulty, hardware availability, and investor interest.

The people who invest first get the lowest price and a continually growing hashrate... The boats leaving.

The problem is you may not see any dividend before 2015....why should you bother with its rate of return?
Possibly nothing in 2 years time or instant less return as 26% with ASICMINER or Coinlender , Please make your choice?

In fact ,gives me your BTC , I promised you that in 2015 I will mining at 1000M/HASH @today's 0.15BTC per contract...I promise it to you ..... of course I would not to doing that anyway ,I just want to let you know that TIME=RISK.

You seem like a smart guy,

I'm sure you can read, he mentioned he has a meeting with a Bitfury Rep and they promise delivery in August/October.

I personally have 8.5TH split up between 4 different companies all coming at anytime between now and October.

Lets put it this way, if you buy at .15, and then the price goes to .19 then you made .04 per share + whatever dividends you got.

He's already pulled in > $150,000 worth of BTC. That should get him a good start. The biggest risk to these are if enough people don't back the person but it looks like that isn't an issue.

[btcmonkey]

This security provides a return that is an order of magnitude more than most of its competitors. It is totally competitive in its own market. I think it is fine to question the value of the market (though existing interest seems to be speaking for itself), but don't blame this single security.

I also understand people's concern about wording of the prospectus and what may be missing, not covered, or inappropriate. I also get the argument about the bads of centralized mining corporations and arguments comparing this class of securities to raw physical mining. I think those thoughts need to enter into your valuation of this equity, but decisions based on those issues are pretty personal and tough to quantify.

I am more concerned of there being no clear indicator of when mining will come online (and even more, if it is piecemeal as has recently been discussed, how can you commit to 100MH/s out the gate).

Given that though, thinking about when mining may come online, even with a high estimate of total network hashrate and an underestimate of what Lab_Rat would deliver, it seems like, for a bond/security of this type, this has a decent raw ROI of dividends.

I will make a couple assumptions for this analysis, that you are free to challenge but I consider reasonable or conservative (at least the first 4).
1) This stock will start delivering dividends in the month of October.
2) The total network hash rate will hit 1500 TH/s (1.5PH/s - peta hash) by that time.
3) Lab_Rat will only ever deliver equivalent of 100MH/s per share. (contrary to stated plan)
4) These shares will continue to be worth 0.15 BTCs each with no growth (or reduction).
5) A year later the network hash rate will be around 8PH/s.

Please help me check my math:

with 1500TH/s, aka 1,500,000,000MH/s (~210million difficulty)
at 3600 BTC generated per day across the network (on average)
then 0.000002394253791 BTC will be generated per day per MH/s (3600/1500000000)

@ 100MH/s each share will deliver 0.0002394253791 BTC per day (100 * 0.000002394253791)
@ 365 days in a year each share will deliver 0.0873902633715 BTC per year (365 * 0.0002394253791)
@ .15 per share price the calculated % return of this stock, in dividends, is 58.25% (0.0873902633715/.15)

Though this is incomplete (especially in assuming a one time starting hash rate for an annual return), this seems to be the type of analysis many are doing to identify value of dividends for comparison sake. 58.25% seems particularly high for this class of stock. If you add in the chance for 166 or 200MH/s stocks (likely) and increases in security values (likely) then it gets even better.

Going to the other extreme where I assume the year-later hashrate of 8 Petahash/s the same calculation nets a dividend return of 11%. This seems low for a stock with this risk profile, but high compared to peers and pretty ok given that this assumes no growth in stock and no increase over 100MH/s.

Whether you want to hold up BTC in a stock that won't pay dividends for 3 months is another thing. If we consider our year starting now, then that 58.25% return turns into 3/4 of itself or 43.69%.

[SOSLOVE868]

Except you didn't do the math where your same .15 @ 100MH grow (without you putting money into it) to a 200MH bond and greater depending on difficulty, hardware availability, and investor interest.

The people who invest first get the lowest price and a continually growing hashrate... The boats leaving.

The problem is you may not see any dividend before 2015....why should you bother with its rate of return?
Possibly nothing in 2 years time or instant less return as 26% with ASICMINER or Coinlender , Please make your choice?

In fact ,gives me your BTC , I promised you that in 2015 I will mining at 1000M/HASH @today's 0.15BTC per contract...I promise it to you ..... of course I would not to doing that anyway ,I just want to let you know that TIME=RISK.

You seem like a smart guy,

I'm sure you can read, he mentioned he has a meeting with a Bitfury Rep and they promise delivery in August/October.

I personally have 8.5TH split up between 4 different companies all coming at anytime between now and October.

Lets put it this way, if you buy at .15, and then the price goes to .19 then you made .04 per share + whatever dividends you got.

He's already pulled in > $150,000 worth of BTC. That should get him a good start. The biggest risk to these are if enough people don't back the person but it looks like that isn't an issue.

No , I just do not believe that Bitfurry can delivery its 28NM standards product within time...Based on my understanding to IC industries, that manufactures which capable to producing at 28nm standard are too over schedule its production capability to those graphic card ,mobile phone companies and so on. even 40NM manufactures have the same issues.  below are my 2 reasons that supporting Bitfurry can't get its production on time.

1: High demand with those 28NM manufactures.
2: Huge cost to get new chips into production line .(For the scale of mining chips those manufactures may never get interest to put them into their production line, this mean the cost is far beyond what Bitfurry or other company can bearing)

BFL is a good example, why can't they get their product into mass production?(I think they facing the problems I mentioned above) Compare BFL with Bitfurry I think BFL should got more pre-orders, even they get failed what should I think Bitfurry can succeed ?

This just my personal perception , if you feel wrong you can ignored it .

[Vbs]

2) The total network hash rate will hit 1500 TH/s (1.5PH/s - peta hash) by that time.
3) Lab_Rat will only ever deliver equivalent of 100MH/s per share. (contrary to stated plan)
4) These shares will continue to be worth 0.15 BTCs each with no growth (or reduction).

The problem is right here. You can say that BTC0.15 per 100MH/s is a great price right now (network at ~250TH/s), but when the network reaches 1500TH/s, 100MH/s is worth then 0.15*250/1500 = BTC0.025, an 83% devaluation.

[Ukyo]

2) The total network hash rate will hit 1500 TH/s (1.5PH/s - peta hash) by that time.
3) Lab_Rat will only ever deliver equivalent of 100MH/s per share. (contrary to stated plan)
4) These shares will continue to be worth 0.15 BTCs each with no growth (or reduction).

The problem is right here. You can say that BTC0.15 per 100MH/s is a great price right now (network at ~250TH/s), but when the network reaches 1500TH/s, 100MH/s is worth then 0.15*250/1500 = BTC0.025, an 83% devaluation.

The only counter measure to this is if bitcoin price continues to go back up.

[SOSLOVE868]

2) The total network hash rate will hit 1500 TH/s (1.5PH/s - peta hash) by that time.
3) Lab_Rat will only ever deliver equivalent of 100MH/s per share. (contrary to stated plan)
4) These shares will continue to be worth 0.15 BTCs each with no growth (or reduction).

The problem is right here. You can say that BTC0.15 per 100MH/s is a great price right now (network at ~250TH/s), but when the network reaches 1500TH/s, 100MH/s is worth then 0.15*250/1500 = BTC0.025, an 83% devaluation.

The only counter measure to this is if bitcoin price continues to go back up.

I think that both BFL and Bitfurry can not put its product into mass production...this why any mining bond based on their devices are just mean get nothing in the future for whatever price you pay for.

[btcmonkey]

2) The total network hash rate will hit 1500 TH/s (1.5PH/s - peta hash) by that time.
3) Lab_Rat will only ever deliver equivalent of 100MH/s per share. (contrary to stated plan)
4) These shares will continue to be worth 0.15 BTCs each with no growth (or reduction).

The problem is right here. You can say that BTC0.15 per 100MH/s is a great price right now (network at ~250TH/s), but when the network reaches 1500TH/s, 100MH/s is worth then 0.15*250/1500 = BTC0.025, an 83% devaluation.

Did you miss that my whole argument is that 0.15 per 100MH/s when network 1500TH/s is still a good price (~58% annual return)? Totally competitive with anyone in the market (by orders of magnitude). If you did the math assuming ~250TH/s network (poor decision IMO), then the estimated rate of return is like 350% (meaning you earn 3.5BTC per 1 BTC invested). So yes an 83% 'devaluation' from ridiculous to pretty-good-and-totally-competitive.

[SOSLOVE868]

2) The total network hash rate will hit 1500 TH/s (1.5PH/s - peta hash) by that time.
3) Lab_Rat will only ever deliver equivalent of 100MH/s per share. (contrary to stated plan)
4) These shares will continue to be worth 0.15 BTCs each with no growth (or reduction).

The problem is right here. You can say that BTC0.15 per 100MH/s is a great price right now (network at ~250TH/s), but when the network reaches 1500TH/s, 100MH/s is worth then 0.15*250/1500 = BTC0.025, an 83% devaluation.

Did you miss that my whole argument is that 0.15 per 100MH/s when network 1500TH/s is still a good price (~58% annual return)? Totally competitive with anyone in the market (by orders of magnitude). If you did the math assuming ~250TH/s network (poor decision IMO), then the estimated rate of return is like 350% (meaning you earn 3.5BTC per 1 BTC invested). So yes an 83% 'devaluation' from ridiculous to pretty-good-and-totally-competitive.

The question isn't really concern with any math calculation ,is just mean you get good return if bitfurry made its promised, or you get nothing...
This is a gamble on pre-order , If I willing to take the risk I will rather go for pre-order by myself ,since more hashrate efficiency than buying this mining contract.

[btcmonkey]

The question isn't really concern with any math calculation ,is just mean you get good return if bitfurry made its promised, or you get nothing...
This is a gamble on pre-order , If I willing to take the risk I will rather go for pre-order by myself ,since more hashrate efficiency than buying this mining contract.

Totally fair sentiment. Though I have a lot of issues with BFL, I do think they will deliver *eventually*. I don't know enough about bitfury to make the judgement though (which is its own concern). I think we will know a lot more about that within the next two weeks. Perhaps that is the time for some to reevaluate this investment.