Butterfly Labs shipping 300 units a day

[Threader]

Yes, BFL have been running a very harmonious household. Why anyone would complain just destroys this harmony. LOL. We are providing a public service. Like BFL_Jody said "if it makes you angry reading it then stop reading it"...yeah great advice. not

[Radacoin]

Where did Josh or Jody say that the backlog will be cleared by end of August?

[Flying Hellfish]

Where did Josh or Jody say that the backlog will be cleared by end of August?

BFL forums

Here is where he confirms end of August
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/3611-buttefly-company-still-work-not-3.html#post44788

Here is where he pushes it out to end of September (about 5 days after he confirms end of Aug...)
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3703-josh-its-time-update-bfl-asic-status.html#post45852

[dominicus]

Name:   dominicus
Posts:   64
Activity:   42
Position:   Member
Date Registered:   July 01, 2013, 12:30:49 PM

How did a member of The Sockappellas get in here? Singing a tune that the customers are to blame for BFL?
Dumbest sockpuppet ever, I bet this one lasts even less time than int03h does.

Nice k9, you sure make it easy to prove a point about posters itching to spew acid out of self-fabricated supposition and spite.

Yes I am new to this forum.  Does one need to drool BFL PTSD, or own coins mined with CPU's to post here?

What is incorrect about pointing to the irony that customer anger causes future sales to crash, which in turn cause further delays due to BFL's lack of cashflow needed to ramp-up?

It's a poisoned vicious cycle, part-n-parcel of this business that's about to implode, but still highly likely what is going on right this minute.

Furthermore, it's my on-topic opinion with respect to the original title of this thread.

[Syke]

What is incorrect about pointing to the irony that customer anger causes future sales to crash, which in turn cause further delays due to BFL's lack of cashflow needed to ramp-up?

You just admitted that BFL is running a Ponzi scheme. Welcome to the BIAS (Bfl Is A Scam) club.

[dominicus]

What is incorrect about pointing to the irony that customer anger causes future sales to crash, which in turn cause further delays due to BFL's lack of cashflow needed to ramp-up?

You just admitted that BFL is running a Ponzi scheme. Welcome to the BIAS (Bfl Is A Scam) club.

I don't think Ponzi is accurate.  Ponzi schemers don't bother building a working product or buying whatever investment they market to attract future investors...much less embarking on custom wafer-level IC design or build factories.  In a Ponzi, investing the principal on anything is a waste, since most of it is what schemers want to steal for themselves.

Maybe a blend, in commercial realm, of a sales crunch (i.e. torrents of bad-press suppressing future sales), plus a bank run (bad-press & incompetence triggers a flood of forced refunds of prepaid orders).

[joeventura]

Currently the only difference between Avalon and BFL is Avalon does not tell us something is going to happen and it doesn't and they don't tell us to "fucking get a clue"

Otherwise they are equal in poor communication, poor customer service, poor delivery time frames, over promising and under-delivering.

[erk]

Currently the only difference between Avalon and BFL is Avalon does not tell us something is going to happen and it doesn't and they don't tell us to "fucking get a clue"

Otherwise they are equal in poor communication, poor customer service, poor delivery time frames, over promising and under-delivering.

I actually see that as a positive for BFL to know that at least one of their execs is on the ground reading forums, knowing what the market thinks, even if he does go over the top with abuse from time to time, it's better than sitting in an ivory tower totally out of touch with the user base.

[k9quaint]

Name:   dominicus
Posts:   64
Activity:   42
Position:   Member
Date Registered:   July 01, 2013, 12:30:49 PM

How did a member of The Sockappellas get in here? Singing a tune that the customers are to blame for BFL?
Dumbest sockpuppet ever, I bet this one lasts even less time than int03h does.

Nice k9, you sure make it easy to prove a point about posters itching to spew acid out of self-fabricated supposition and spite.

Try being less dumb. Try being more informed. This will happen every time one of you noobie/sockpuppets show up spewing random nonsense about how "she was asking for it because of the way she was dressed".

Yes I am new to this forum.  Does one need to drool BFL PTSD, or own coins mined with CPU's to post here?

No, you need to read history before you try to explain it.

What is incorrect about pointing to the irony that customer anger causes future sales to crash, which in turn cause further delays due to BFL's lack of cashflow needed to ramp-up?

It is not ironic. It is just logical. Less victims means less money for BFL. Investors are not to blame for how BFL spent their investment.
If BFL is indeed in a cash crunch then they have lied about it, further absolving investors.

It's a poisoned vicious cycle, part-n-parcel of this business that's about to implode, but still highly likely what is going on right this minute.
Furthermore, it's my on-topic opinion with respect to the original title of this thread.

All BFL would have to do to break the cycle is hire a communications person who does not insult, ridicule, ignore, and taunt their customer base. Or might that be too obvious? You don't see the same time of poisonous hatred for Avalon (quite the contrary in fact) because when they miss a date, they don't show up on the forums to insult their investors.

[YipYip]

Re: Criminal proceedings against Butterfly Labs for fraud

quote / translation

"The case was closed. BFL had indeed refused to make a refund but after I reported the American trade supervision, BFL has refunded me the 15,000 USD back."

Das Verfahren wurde eingestellt. BFL hatte sich zwar geweigert ein Rückzahlung zu leisten aber nachdem ich es der Amerikanischen Handelsaufsicht gemeldet habe, hat BFL mir die 15,000 USD zurück erstattet.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=255178.msg2846193#msg2846193

This BFL debacle may be a textbook example of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I get a strong sense that BFL might've done a lot better in many aspects of their operation had they not been surrounded and bombarded by the clinically-suspicious and vocal crowd that is a staple of bitcoin.

It's impossible to succeed in any project where your current customers are vocally and justifiably destroying your ability to get additional customers.  No business succeeds without positive cash-flow from new sales.

Equally or more blameworthy was placing sub-standard individuals to manage their early stumbles, and keep them there when things got ugly.

BFL did have the technical capability and intent to design and market a viable ASIC device that could've made a lot of BTC for a whole lot of folks, but this never came to be.

My point is that incompetent PR and execution on BFL's part, coupled with the barrage from unreasonably acid buyers irrevocably poisoned a business idea that did, in fact, have a real product behind it.

This very damaging combination killed the money supply for BFL.  The louder the cross-fighting, the less sales, less free cash to fix the issues, the more delays, the louder the complaints, the stupider the retorts....all the while, there was, in fact, a product to be had, but no extra money to address the inevitable wrinkles that come with the introduction of new technology.

Oh My God ...how fucking deluded are you !!!

So i get it just like a battered wife ...its our fault for being critical and calling them on the 100's of missed promises and lies

You are sooooooooooo awesome !!!! 

[YipYip]

Lesson learned: Never do business with an Asic manufacturer / miner assembler that has an open unending ordersheet.

 I recognize I am dangerously close to flirting with a shill accusation for ASICMiner, but after observing the ASIC landscape develop since BFL's first announcement, I will not be participating in any further pre-orders in Bitcoin space.

 Avalon's recent developments have cemented that decision as their chip shipments are late and their customer service/communication is abysmal.

 If you have a product that I can pay for and receive in a week's time, Perfect ! You have my business.

 It's just too risky right now in Bitcoin ASIC space, and it's worth the peace of mind paying a premium for a product I can have right now hashing away on the network.

 I imagine a year from now, the landscape will have changed such that we'll have no trouble picking-and-choosing from several vendors with stock on-hand.

I came to this realization 6 months ago and moved to LTC

I have been happy and profitable ever since

Its not the fantasy get rich quick schemes that drive the ASIC BTC world...but honest hard work (...lolz)

In 6 months when all of this crap calms down and ASICS are at a realistic price & a 1-2 week delivery cycle is when i will look at ASIC's

Life is too short to have all of that stress and angst being involved with unfulfilled promises & disappointments  ...its like being in a divorce and delivery is when u are finally free from these PRE-ORDER nightmares

 

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Re: Criminal proceedings against Butterfly Labs for fraud

quote / translation

"The case was closed. BFL had indeed refused to make a refund but after I reported the American trade supervision, BFL has refunded me the 15,000 USD back."

Das Verfahren wurde eingestellt. BFL hatte sich zwar geweigert ein Rückzahlung zu leisten aber nachdem ich es der Amerikanischen Handelsaufsicht gemeldet habe, hat BFL mir die 15,000 USD zurück erstattet.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=255178.msg2846193#msg2846193

This BFL debacle may be a textbook example of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I get a strong sense that BFL might've done a lot better in many aspects of their operation had they not been surrounded and bombarded by the clinically-suspicious and vocal crowd that is a staple of bitcoin.

It's impossible to succeed in any project where your current customers are vocally and justifiably destroying your ability to get additional customers.  No business succeeds without positive cash-flow from new sales.

Equally or more blameworthy was placing sub-standard individuals to manage their early stumbles, and keep them there when things got ugly.

BFL did have the technical capability and intent to design and market a viable ASIC device that could've made a lot of BTC for a whole lot of folks, but this never came to be.

My point is that incompetent PR and execution on BFL's part, coupled with the barrage from unreasonably acid buyers irrevocably poisoned a business idea that did, in fact, have a real product behind it.

This very damaging combination killed the money supply for BFL.  The louder the cross-fighting, the less sales, less free cash to fix the issues, the more delays, the louder the complaints, the stupider the retorts....all the while, there was, in fact, a product to be had, but no extra money to address the inevitable wrinkles that come with the introduction of new technology.

Let me see if I have this correct. BFL was able to secure VC prior to not having a working ASIC-based Bitcoin miner, but will have revenue problems due to not being able to procure an even much larger VC funding now that they've proven to the world that the bitches work and are in FULL PRODUCTION.

What am I missing?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Lesson learned: Never do business with an Asic manufacturer / miner assembler that has an open unending ordersheet. Not saying it won't rule out foul play but at least it shows a level of responsibility.

As someone else pointed out before (can't remember who but iwon't take credit for it) Yes they are shipping an undeniable truth but anyone placing new orders is buying a heavily back-ordered product. Seeing that it is backordered product than not refunding clients is utter BS. Josh has always said (someone find his quote as I'm too lazy to muck through months of mindless drivel from the guy) that BFL does not spend the order money until the item is produced or something along that line.

Well if you haven't spent it then give it the fuck back. Even if you did give it back anyways. It's the right thing to do not that good morals have anything to do with this company's management.

I found one such post you were too lazy to hunt (but glad to do it for you).

It kills me to agree with Jutarul, but this is actually a pretty good way to measure it.  The whole "If you bought BTC instead of XXXX device in YYY time, you would have made ZZZZ" is ludicrous and goes to show that the person making that argument does not understand how money works.

"Hindsight" wasn't my argument. BFL converts all BTC to USD, thus avoiding all currency risk. Buyers on the other hand preorder with BTC, and have their spent BTC sit in limbo until the product they purchase is finally delivered. True, BTC could have fallen instead of risen, which would have made those who have preordered much better off (and BTC did fall from $12 to $10.50 for a time), but this currency risk is taken on entirely by the customers. The decision to preorder a long time ago, which resulted from a huge opportunity cost, turned out to be a bad decision, but the main reason that decision was made to begin with was because BFL claimed that the delivery date was only a couple months away, i.e. BFL claimed that the currency risk would be smaller than it turned out to be. In the end, BFL was not affected, since it is not affected by BTC fluctuation due to holding USD, those who have preordered a long time ago have experienced a huge opportunity cost, and BFL is to blame. (If you think opportunity cost isn't a real cost, the extra $3,000USD worth of BTC that I have and that you don't says otherwise).
Now, I'm not saying that this is something that BFL needs to repay to those who have preordered. Currency exchange risk is often unpredictable, and something those who preordered (maybe) likely expected. I'm just pointing out that delays that happen when dealing with two currencies that fluxuate against each other do have very real costs, begin just annoyed customers and whining on forums.

By the way, it could have been MUCH worse if BFL had kept all their customer preorder funds in BTC instead, because if people asked for a refund, had BTC lost value, they could refund BTC, and had it gained value, sell it for the USD price equivalent and just return the USD, netting the BTC gains for themselves. It would have been an almost risk-free investment for them.

BTW, did BFL mention whether they are still keeping customer's preorder funds in a separate account? Because until they start shipping products, that money is still technically Unearned Revenue, and does not belong to them. I'm assuming that's what they are doing, since they are an LLC, will have to file taxes, and will have to declare it as such, lest they bring the wrath of IRS auditors upon their heads.

I guess I'm not understanding why/how you are applying this opportunity cost to only one side of the transaction, which then results in an unbalanced transaction.  Yes, BFL is late and the opportunity cost is real, but it applies to both sides of the transaction (and thus cancels out).  Saying BFL was not affected is the fundamental problem here - BFL is only not affected if the transaction is unilaterally applied to the customer and not BFL, which is not the case (as you point out in a later paragraph).  BFL would have to hold on to the BTC and then issue refunds in USD for that to apply, and that is not what's happening.  The opportunity cost that affects the customers also affects BFL.  If we had held on to the BTC, we could have gained quite a bit (again, as you already pointed out).  So yes, the opportunity cost is real in so far as "if someone had held on to the BTC, they'd have more USD value than they did before," but again that's only valid with hindsight, not with future predictions.  If BFL had known that BTC was going to rise, BFL should have kept the BTC instead of the USD.  Anyway, I'm rambling at this point... the take away from this is that the potential opportunity cost applies to both the customer and BFL and thus cancels each other out as providing an advantage to one party over another.

To answer your question, yes we maintain preorder funds separate from expenditure funds.

But there's another little nugget in the above. Notice Josh mentions that BFL doesn't not hold unto BTC. Odd! The $100K in BTC charity fund stems from the sales of miners and was not purchased en masse for the sole purpose of setting up that special fund.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

The didn't put the cash from past sales in a lock-box until they fulfilled those orders, instead they rely on ongoing sales to fund current operations, like 99.9999% of businesses.

See my post above in bold red. Both statements can't be true.

[scambutterflylabs]

quote BFL_Jody

"Jalapenos: None shipped today, so we are still at Nov. 14,2012

Little Singles: shipping July 31, 2012 today

Singles: Not many--still at June 26

MiniRigs: Shipped a lot of MiniRigs from June 23/ 2012. Doubled our MiniRig staff

The rules for this post: I will only tell you the pay dates for orders shipped, Not quantities; not the order numbers.

I am too sleepy to say more tonight.

Ask me a question I can answer and I will post on Saturday---well, later on Saturday, like day time."

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/266-friday-august-2-2013-shipping-update.html

[Noogsy]

quote BFL_Jody

"Jalapenos: None shipped today, so we are still at Nov. 14,2012
+
Little Singles: shipping July 31, 2012 today
+
Singles: Not many--still at June 26
+
MiniRigs: Shipped a lot of MiniRigs from June 23/ 2012. Doubled our MiniRig staff

= 300. Math is just soo relative.

When do you think "September" will be changed to Oct/Nov/Dec ?

[dominicus]

The didn't put the cash from past sales in a lock-box until they fulfilled those orders, instead they rely on ongoing sales to fund current operations, like 99.9999% of businesses.

See my post above in bold red. Both statements can't be true.

You're pulling a Dec-2012, pre-order/pre-ship statement by inaba, and expecting it continues to apply two months post-ship?

So, yes Phinnaeus Gage, I believe both statement can be true, although I doubt inaba's ever was.

I'd love to read an accounting regulation that prevents a private business that ships product from using cash from prepaid ORDERS for whatever they wish to spend it on (i.e. R&D, parties, charity, executive perks, and oooops none left for parts?!).

They do have a legal liability to the customer until they ship, so called "unearned revenue", but really just digits on a spreadsheet until someone successfully sues them or forces a refund...no requirement to keep the cash in any lock-box.

[testerx]

I'm not sure that they're really shipping 300 every single day, it seems like production happens in bursts, but I do think they've probably had several 300 unit type days.  August 1st seems to have been a pretty productive day in terms of shipping since they did most of 3 days of Single SCs and most orders are for multiple units so it's not inconceivable that the total number of units is fairly high even if the orders aren't.  Seems like they're stuck on larger June 26th orders.

Can't wait for my units...gonna be camping for the mailman tomorrow, might even have to miss an important lunch appointment lol.

[scambutterflylabs]

quote:

"The story so far

Butterfly Labs (BFL) is working with more than 1 year back-log of pre-orders. Since the company has no structured information about how this back-log is being cleared, several attempts to illustrate and keep track of the limited information from the company have been made - this is one of them. BFL_Jody (corporate officer and sec/treasurer) keeps the only daily blog with shipping information, otherwise the organisation is highly tightlipped.

The shipping blog lists information about which pre-order pay-dates have been shipped. The blog does not include any information about the number of units shipped, which is information that BFL does not want to share. Nor does the blog explain when production and shipping is slowed down. In fact most questions posed by the ever-increasingly dismayed public go unanswered. It is fair to assume that the company is struggling, not only with supply-chain, production and shipping - but also customer service.

BFL has promised that the back-log would be cleared this summer, but the deadline has been pushed back several times and at this point it appears unlikely that the latest deadline can be met.

BFL is also trying to discourage refunds, by referring to shady customer locked-in-purchase strategies. The coming month (August 2013) is likely to see more disputes regarding refunds as customers loose faith."

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/2713-time-table-simplified.html#post33138

[YipYip]

The didn't put the cash from past sales in a lock-box until they fulfilled those orders, instead they rely on ongoing sales to fund current operations, like 99.9999% of businesses.

See my post above in bold red. Both statements can't be true.

You're pulling a Dec-2012, pre-order/pre-ship statement by inaba, and expecting it continues to apply two months post-ship?

So, yes Phinnaeus Gage, I believe both statement can be true, although I doubt inaba's ever was.

I'd love to read an accounting regulation that prevents a private business that ships product from using cash from prepaid ORDERS for whatever they wish to spend it on (i.e. R&D, parties, charity, executive perks, and oooops none left for parts?!).

They do have a legal liability to the customer until they ship, so called "unearned revenue", but really just digits on a spreadsheet until someone successfully sues them or forces a refund...no requirement to keep the cash in any lock-box.

You may be right....but

If you have not isolated the pre-payment funds you are open to proofing that an imbezzlement has not taken place and other criminal actvities etc

Having said that the laws are pretty lenient in that even if you have pretended to do a half arse effort and failed... taking millions in funds in directors fees,200k+ salarys and even having other LLC's owned by you provide services such as IT support for 80k a month just to name a few of the old chestnuts .......they should be fine in this regards to criminal law i.e BFL's current state of play

One wildcard fact is Sonny's previous history may give some DA a hard on to really look at WTF has gone on ...lolz

Getting to the point in all of this is once again the never ending lies and deceit that BFL will always say anything to keep the pre-orders flowing

i.e ALL FUNDS HAVE NOT BEEN SPENT AND ARE ISOLATED BLAH BLAH BLAH

They live by the conmans playbook of...... truth is just an inconvenient obstacle that needs to be neutralized every now and again by a few pesky customers who dont buy the SPIN !

Also another point to your failed argument is that as a guesstimate that over ~60%+  of all pre-orders happend before the statements that PG is quoting....so they are valid now completely or at least to 60%

Anyways long and the short socktilla contestant  v6.30 I think we have all discussed this with you over and over again in your many incarnations ...so yeah keep the good work up  

P.S "SUCK IT"