[IPVO] [Multiple Exchanges] Neo & Bee - LMB Holdings

[cryptocyprus]

You say you're an expert when it comes to finance, risk management and so on and yet you've bought into an ultra high risk, Asicminer run by some Chinese? dude calling himself Friedcat (no real identity provided) that doesn't name his associates; an operation that provided/provides zero transparency on many levels.

Now you're ultra-critical with these guys that provided a very high level of transparency and have a sustainable business model. Something doesn't add up.

Different scenario entirely. AM were mining and paying dividends (a quasi-real business) and I thought they were about to jump in price, so I bought as a short-term speculation. They jumped in price very quickly in about 2 months, so I sold out. Haven't touched their shares for months and watched them subsequently fall.

I have no criticism of the transparency of Neo/Bee, but what they precisely don't have is a sustainable business model as it relies on Bitcoin growing continuously.

Not entirely reliable on the price of Bitcoin rising in price, we do know that we will be increasing demand and reducing the supply at the same time, however we are also developing alternate revenue streams based on additional services that we shall offer at the time of launch. To provide projected figures on these without solid decisions having been made is something that I just will not do, as someone with a financial background you will understand the vast amount of variables when considering an insurance carrier, this is also totally ignoring the fact that we are also entering into the International Remittance space too.

[memvola]

@mutex, very good summary, thank you.

Second, bitcoins are hard to confiscate. Although Neo didn't say much about that third legal entity which will be keeping signatures (1 out of 3) for signing client transations, if that entity is out of Cyprus (or better yet, out of EU) jurisdiction, it can't be coerced to give up those signatures.

cryptocyprus has been talking about this for some time now, and in time it may even become more flexible with the improvements of the Bitcoin protocol. It is also possible for Neo to lend its authority to a yet another off-jurisdiction party in a time of crisis, by moving the money to different 2-of-3 addresses, thereby removing the efficacy of all sorts of local coercion.

The prospectus talks about accounting audits, but it would further reinforce trust to have a technical audit of this system by a well known community member.

[237]

You say you're an expert when it comes to finance, risk management and so on and yet you've bought into an ultra high risk, Asicminer run by some Chinese? dude calling himself Friedcat (no real identity provided) that doesn't name his associates; an operation that provided/provides zero transparency on many levels.

Now you're ultra-critical with these guys that provided a very high level of transparency and have a sustainable business model. Something doesn't add up.

Different scenario entirely. AM were mining and paying dividends (a quasi-real business) and I thought they were about to jump in price, so I bought as a short-term speculation. They jumped in price very quickly in about 2 months, so I sold out. Haven't touched their shares for months and watched them subsequently fall.

I have no criticism of the transparency of Neo/Bee, but what they precisely don't have is a sustainable business model as it relies on Bitcoin growing continuously.

Not entirely reliable on the price of Bitcoin rising in price, we do know that we will be increasing demand and reducing the supply at the same time, however we are also developing alternate revenue streams based on additional services that we shall offer at the time of launch. To provide projected figures on these without solid decisions having been made is something that I just will not do, as someone with a financial background you will understand the vast amount of variables when considering an insurance carrier, this is also totally ignoring the fact that we are also entering into the International Remittance space too.

Had to read it because it was quoted.

Again. ex-trader is either too narrowminded or simply too stupid to understand any of this. He sounds like a broken record for pages now.

There is no point in discussing with such people. Especially after he claimed he has 25 years of trading experience, though he is only 20 something years old.

And creating the cocoxixi account matched the profile of an unsecessfull FUD-spreader perfectly.....

[Stelios]

Second biggest risk factor, in my view, is if the (conservative) Cypriot population will actually go for it. For both the above, NEOBEE has lunged/planned a lobbying and PR campaign respectively and I wish them the best of luck .    
          

I missed this part yesterday, yes the Cypriot people are conservative, as myself and you both know (having had/still live in Cyprus) that they have always operated under the terms of "old is good". Now that is changing, especially when you talk about the following percentages 6.9%, 47.5% & 100% then pose the question to them "is old still good?" the answers are somewhat different these days.

Completely agree with that. Also from my contacts in Cyprus this description is correct, people as shifting from "old and good" to we need something "new and better". Ofcourse a good PR campaign is needed to associate NEOBEE with the "new and better". To that end you (NEOBEE) have already got some press and also have a solid PR plan containing the biggest TV/Radio Stations, newspapers, seminars etc. So thumbs up from me .     

[ex-trader]

There is no point in discussing with such people. Especially after he claimed he has 25 years of trading experience, though he is only 20 something years old.

And creating the cocoxixi account matched the profile of an unsecessfull FUD-spreader perfectly.....

Why do you possibly think I'm 20-something? I'm mid 40s actually and retired from full-time employment a few years back.

The other profile is not me (though clearly they happen to agree with me), perhaps someone on here can check somehow - I have no need to create fake accounts. Some people will be happy to disagree with me and that's just fine, I always enjoy debate and contrary opinions, the world would be a dull place if we all agreed!

However, my points have only been answered as follows:

How do you cover the risks, given I have proved you'll go bust in some scenarios = 'we have a secret strategy for trading'.

How will you make profits if BTC doesn't keep going up= 'we'll charge for money transmission and insurance, even though we haven't really covered either in the plan and insurance has nothing to do with BTC so where do we have an edge or value-add?'

[lewicki]

What ex-trader is bringing to the table is at least intelligible criticism compared to everyone else. Leave him alone.

[floatyfish]

Would it be possible to get an update on the transfer of shares?

[N_S]

To provide projected figures on these without solid decisions having been made is something that I just will not do

This needs to be given some solid respect, especially around these parts. All too often we hear such lofty promises and projections that usually go woefully unfulfilled.

The fact he's unwilling to follow this pattern bodes very well for his credibility.

[klee]

What ex-trader is bringing to the table is at least intelligible criticism compared to everyone else. Leave him alone.

He is ok in my eyes - his criticism more than welcome and definitely not a trol.
But he didn't respond to my criticism up-thread.

[ex-trader]

I have noticed (for the last 3 years here) that many 'traditional' traders say the same things over and over again. They are correct in short window timeframes but they miss the point entirely long term.

Bitcoin is not a traditional asset - when it was 0.0001$ last time? Sorry, I forget!

Here's a reply..... is this the one I missed?

I agree Bitcoin does not perform like any traditional asset and in the long-term it'll either be worth a lot of money or nothing at all, in fact I think it's a pretty binary outcome.

However my issue with this particular 'bank' is that irrespective of the likelihood of it going up through time history has proven that it has that capability of massively falling in value in short periods and it will likely do so again at some points, since it is not 'backed' by anything (metals, governments, taxes, countries or soldiers being the common methods).

I merely wish to discuss what happens to the 'bank' with all it's pegged deposits at that point and the answer is that it quickly becomes insolvent (unless some undeclared potential blackbox trading saves it etc)..........

[N_S]

Here's a reply..... is this the one I missed?

I agree Bitcoin does not perform like any traditional asset and in the long-term it'll either be worth a lot of money or nothing at all, in fact I think it's a pretty binary outcome.

However my issue with this particular 'bank' is that irrespective of the likelihood of it going up through time history has proven that it has that capability of massively falling in value in short periods and it will likely do so again at some points, since it is not 'backed' by anything (metals, governments, taxes, countries or soldiers being the common methods).

I merely wish to discuss what happens to the 'bank' with all it's pegged deposits at that point and the answer is that it quickly becomes insolvent (unless some undeclared potential blackbox trading saves it etc)..........

If I read you correctly, you're simply saying the venture has risk. Is that all? I don't think anyone will say there aren't risks.

The question is: How realistic is the situation you're concerned about and is it reasonable to expect this to happen? If you're simply saying 'well, it could happen!' I'm not going to disagree with you - it most certainly could. But so could a slew of other things that would doom it to failure. A meteor could hit the Med and drown Cyprus, but I don't think anyone is wildly concerned about that because it isn't reasonable to expect.

I understand the past has held some significant fluctuations in bitcoin price. There will likely be some in the future. From the sounds of it, Neo would have to be fantastically unlucky to open it's door right on the edge of a 50+% down turn in bitcoin price. Once again, feel free to disagree with that if you please, but I'll argue that the liklihood of such an event occurring is lower than the contrary. If you disagree, give justification. Simply saying it could happen doesn't help - we all know it could.

[klee]

I have noticed (for the last 3 years here) that many 'traditional' traders say the same things over and over again. They are correct in short window timeframes but they miss the point entirely long term.

Bitcoin is not a traditional asset - when it was 0.0001$ last time? Sorry, I forget!

Here's a reply..... is this the one I missed?

I agree Bitcoin does not perform like any traditional asset and in the long-term it'll either be worth a lot of money or nothing at all, in fact I think it's a pretty binary outcome.

However my issue with this particular 'bank' is that irrespective of the likelihood of it going up through time history has proven that it has that capability of massively falling in value in short periods and it will likely do so again at some points, since it is not 'backed' by anything (metals, governments, taxes, countries or soldiers being the common methods).

I merely wish to discuss what happens to the 'bank' with all it's pegged deposits at that point and the answer is that it quickly becomes insolvent (unless some undeclared potential blackbox trading saves it etc)..........

Thanks for the answer!
I agree with what you say, it is the short term steep price drop gamble that makes this investment risky (probably no one will accuse NEOBEE if BTC goes to zero).

But because it will be short term the agenda of NeoBee convinced me that the risk will be tolerated/handled properly.

I guess we will found out soon!

[pedrog]

I have noticed (for the last 3 years here) that many 'traditional' traders say the same things over and over again. They are correct in short window timeframes but they miss the point entirely long term.

Bitcoin is not a traditional asset - when it was 0.0001$ last time? Sorry, I forget!

Here's a reply..... is this the one I missed?

I agree Bitcoin does not perform like any traditional asset and in the long-term it'll either be worth a lot of money or nothing at all, in fact I think it's a pretty binary outcome.

However my issue with this particular 'bank' is that irrespective of the likelihood of it going up through time history has proven that it has that capability of massively falling in value in short periods and it will likely do so again at some points, since it is not 'backed' by anything (metals, governments, taxes, countries or soldiers being the common methods).

I merely wish to discuss what happens to the 'bank' with all it's pegged deposits at that point and the answer is that it quickly becomes insolvent (unless some undeclared potential blackbox trading saves it etc)..........

Thanks for the answer!
I agree with what you say, it is the short term steep price drop gamble that makes this investment risky (probably no one will accuse NEOBEE if BTC goes to zero).

But because it will be short term the agenda of NeoBee convinced me that the risk will be tolerated/handled properly.

I guess we will found out soon!

The "bet" here is as much in BEOBEE as it is in bitcoin, if someone thinks NEOBEE is going to fail because bitcoin price will drop to zero, just stay away from bitcoin at all...

[ex-trader]

The "bet" here is as much in BEOBEE as it is in bitcoin, if someone thinks NEOBEE is going to fail because bitcoin price will drop to zero, just stay away from bitcoin at all...

Not true.

If you compare to most other Bitcoin ventures, their businesses earn Bitcoins irrespective of what the BTC price is (although some have a small cost element in Fiat), this includes miners, gambling sites, ASIC manufacturers etc. A halving in BTC price barely affects these businesses. If Bitcoin falls you simply hold their earnings in Bitcoin and wait for it to go back up again. They do not fail as businesses.

If Bitcoin falls Neo falls and goes bust - very different outcome.

[cryptocyprus]

The "bet" here is as much in BEOBEE as it is in bitcoin, if someone thinks NEOBEE is going to fail because bitcoin price will drop to zero, just stay away from bitcoin at all...

Not true.

If you compare to most other Bitcoin ventures, their businesses earn Bitcoins irrespective of what the BTC price is (although some have a small cost element in Fiat), this includes miners, gambling sites, ASIC manufacturers etc. A halving in BTC price barely affects these businesses. If Bitcoin falls you simply hold their earnings in Bitcoin and wait for it to go back up again. They do not fail as businesses.

If Bitcoin falls Neo falls and goes bust - very different outcome.

As with anything that finds a price based on supply and demand, one could argue that those existing businesses would receive less BTC income if less people are using BTC. Which is the case when demand drops the price follows suit.

[klee]

I have noticed (for the last 3 years here) that many 'traditional' traders say the same things over and over again. They are correct in short window timeframes but they miss the point entirely long term.

Bitcoin is not a traditional asset - when it was 0.0001$ last time? Sorry, I forget!

Here's a reply..... is this the one I missed?

I agree Bitcoin does not perform like any traditional asset and in the long-term it'll either be worth a lot of money or nothing at all, in fact I think it's a pretty binary outcome.

However my issue with this particular 'bank' is that irrespective of the likelihood of it going up through time history has proven that it has that capability of massively falling in value in short periods and it will likely do so again at some points, since it is not 'backed' by anything (metals, governments, taxes, countries or soldiers being the common methods).

I merely wish to discuss what happens to the 'bank' with all it's pegged deposits at that point and the answer is that it quickly becomes insolvent (unless some undeclared potential blackbox trading saves it etc)..........

Thanks for the answer!
I agree with what you say, it is the short term steep price drop gamble that makes this investment risky (probably no one will accuse NEOBEE if BTC goes to zero).

But because it will be short term the agenda of NeoBee convinced me that the risk will be tolerated/handled properly.

I guess we will found out soon!

The "bet" here is as much in BEOBEE as it is in bitcoin, if someone thinks NEOBEE is going to fail because bitcoin price will drop to zero, just stay away from bitcoin at all...

Not really - Bitcoin had several crashes (2 big and many smaller) that did not kill it. Though a big crash could kill NeoBee (bank run etc) provided that the counter measures are not sufficient as stated.

[pedrog]

I have noticed (for the last 3 years here) that many 'traditional' traders say the same things over and over again. They are correct in short window timeframes but they miss the point entirely long term.

Bitcoin is not a traditional asset - when it was 0.0001$ last time? Sorry, I forget!

Here's a reply..... is this the one I missed?

I agree Bitcoin does not perform like any traditional asset and in the long-term it'll either be worth a lot of money or nothing at all, in fact I think it's a pretty binary outcome.

However my issue with this particular 'bank' is that irrespective of the likelihood of it going up through time history has proven that it has that capability of massively falling in value in short periods and it will likely do so again at some points, since it is not 'backed' by anything (metals, governments, taxes, countries or soldiers being the common methods).

I merely wish to discuss what happens to the 'bank' with all it's pegged deposits at that point and the answer is that it quickly becomes insolvent (unless some undeclared potential blackbox trading saves it etc)..........

Thanks for the answer!
I agree with what you say, it is the short term steep price drop gamble that makes this investment risky (probably no one will accuse NEOBEE if BTC goes to zero).

But because it will be short term the agenda of NeoBee convinced me that the risk will be tolerated/handled properly.

I guess we will found out soon!

The "bet" here is as much in BEOBEE as it is in bitcoin, if someone thinks NEOBEE is going to fail because bitcoin price will drop to zero, just stay away from bitcoin at all...

Not really - Bitcoin had several crashes (2 big and many smaller) that did not kill it. Though a big crash could kill NeoBee (bank run etc) provided that the counter measures are not sufficient as stated.

I believe there are contingencies in place for bubbles, because they are going to happen again!

[lluboski]

My main problem with NEOBEE is not bitcoin fluctuation directly,but but with the optimistic projections how many people will trust them with there money in relatively short period of time. Because there is considerable cost to run the business,they don't have much time to prove  
that the business is sound.
My second biggest concern is regulation.There is graveyard of bitcoin companies who in the time of there lunch did comply with regulations but was not able to keep up as the regulators reacted on presence of new element and try to protect legacy businesses and there constituents.  

[pedrog]

My main problem with NEOBEE is not bitcoin fluctuation directly,but but with the optimistic projections how many people will trust them with there money in relatively short period of time. Because there is considerable cost to run the business,they don't have much time to prove  
that the business is sound.
My second biggest concern is regulation.There is graveyard of bitcoin companies who in the time of there lunch did comply with regulations but was not able to keep up as the regulators reacted on presence of new element and try to protect legacy businesses and there constituents.  

That was already addressed.

[klee]

SecondMarket BIT + NeoBee projects are enough to push the price x10 soon IMHO...