[ANN] KRAKEN.COM - Exchange with USD EUR GBP JPY CAD BTC LTC XRP NMC XDG STR ETH

[Dargo]

Any ETA on your Ripple gateway being launched?

https://ripple.com/blog/kraken-now-trading-xrp/

I note that Payward hosts the default ripple.com browser client :-)

We don't have an ETA, but it should happen relatively soon - as in, we'd be very surprised if it didn't happen within a month.

[1715221982]

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[MusX]

are you going to be listed on bitcoincharts.com? it could be the best advertise I believe.

[cyclops]

Promote the exchange during this BTC BOOM! Put the thread in marketplace!

[Dargo]

The boom already has us pretty well snowed under with new accounts and frankly more promotion is a slightly scary thought at the moment. 

But don't worry, we aren't going to let this exchange languish for lack of promotion.

[btcx]

Namecoin support added.  Pairs are:  NMC/USD, NMC/EUR, XBT/NMC, NMC/XRP

Don't forget to upgrade your Namecoin clients before the hard fork around Dec 15th:  http://www.reddit.com/r/Namecoin/comments/1q4cf1/update_your_namecoin_clients_update_your_namecoin/

[eldentyrell]

In most US states, including California and New York, we offer no services.

Eh?  Your offices are in SOMA (a San Francisco neighborhood).

Are you seriously saying that none of your employees have accounts on your own system?

Does not compute.

[coinpr0n]

I hate to be the one saying this but after 5 days (sent on Monday morning) my SEPA deposit has still not arrived at Kraken. My bank confirms it was sent, or else it would have been returned. I have been in contact with the Kraken support since Wednesday and they promise to inform me as soon as they know anything. Today, Friday afternoon, all I have to go on is a response to from their support saying:

"I'm very sorry about this. We've inquired about the deposit with Fidor but still haven't heard back from them."

It would seem the 'partnership' with Fidor Bank is a little weak (at least weaker than advertised). I hope you too can understand my unease at the situation as I now have neither the money in the bank or on the exchange - not to mention the difference in the price of Bitcoin between what would have been receiving on Tuesday (€175), today Friday (~€229) or what it will be when I do receive (minimum next business day: Monday Nov. 11 @ €xxx).

I really hate saying this because I have so far been very excited about the Kraken website (see previous posts in this thread). I just don't know what to do now.

[Dargo]

In most US states, including California and New York, we offer no services.

Eh?  Your offices are in SOMA (a San Francisco neighborhood).

Are you seriously saying that none of your employees have accounts on your own system?

Does not compute.

Correct - an exchange is bound by the regulations in jurisdictions where it services customers. So just as it's illegal for an exchange based, say, in France, to service customers in California without the proper California regulatory compliance measures, it's legal for an exchange based in California to service customers in France even though it can't service customers in California (so long as it has met the regulatory compliance requirements for France).  

[Dargo]

I hate to be the one saying this but after 5 days (sent on Monday morning) my SEPA deposit has still not arrived at Kraken. My bank confirms it was sent, or else it would have been returned. I have been in contact with the Kraken support since Wednesday and they promise to inform me as soon as they know anything. Today, Friday afternoon, all I have to go on is a response to from their support saying:

"I'm very sorry about this. We've inquired about the deposit with Fidor but still haven't heard back from them."

It would seem the 'partnership' with Fidor Bank is a little weak (at least weaker than advertised). I hope you too can understand my unease at the situation as I now have neither the money in the bank or on the exchange - not to mention the difference in the price of Bitcoin between what would have been receiving on Tuesday (€175), today Friday (~€229) or what it will be when I do receive (minimum next business day: Monday Nov. 11 @ €xxx).

I really hate saying this because I have so far been very excited about the Kraken website (see previous posts in this thread). I just don't know what to do now.

coinpr0n - thanks for the feedback. I completely agree that your experience is not acceptable but we are actively working to improve the situation. I've spent most of my morning on this. One obvious problem that we're addressing immediately is that we only have one go-to person at Fidor for helping with deposit issues and this person has been unavailable for the past few days (out of town on business), so we haven't been able to get any information from Fidor. The other thing I've learned is that the best way for our users to get prompt action on deposit issues is for the user to present proof of the deposit (i.e. a receipt). For those who have tickets open with us about deposit issues, please reply to the ticket for information on how to get your proof of deposit to us (but we plan to reach out as well). 

[eldentyrell]

Are you seriously saying that none of your employees have accounts on your own system?

Correct

Does not inspire confidence.

[nameface]

Are you seriously saying that none of your employees have accounts on your own system?

Correct

Does not inspire confidence.

I'm pretty sure Payward's goal is to be globally compliant, but you can't just snap your fingers and make that happen. Anyways, they must have employees and partners in zones where they are compliant.

I'm sure a lot of old school Bitcoiners imagine the best exchanges will probably have to be based in Nigeria, or Panama, or Timbuktu. But when you really think about it, isn't SF the ideal location? Think of all the tech money there. Don't we want that cash to flow into our economy? Payward's game plan should inspire your confidence imo.

[Dargo]

Are you seriously saying that none of your employees have accounts on your own system?

Correct

Does not inspire confidence.

I'm not sure what you are worried about, but in any case I should have answered more carefully. None of our California employees have active trading accounts because this would be illegal as I explained above. We're not going to risk trouble with regulators just so our California employees can trade - *that* would not inspire confidence it seems to me. But not all of our employees live in California, so those who live in areas where it's legal to have an active account do have one. None of this harms our ability to test or troubleshoot if that's the concern.

[eldentyrell]

Are you seriously saying that none of your employees have accounts on your own system?

Correct

Does not inspire confidence.

I'm not sure what you are worried about,

First off the eat-your-own-dogfood rule.

But more importantly that it's a big gamble for you to claim that your physical presence in the US isn't a liability simply because you turn away US resident customers.

Look, the regulatory situation sucks, and everybody knows this.  But if the feds want to bring the hammer on you guys, and you're operating out of the USA, I don't think it's going to matter whether you turn away US resident customers or not.  Intrade tried this approach and it didn't work; they're still being harrassed by US regulators and they don't even have a physical presence here!

On some level I feel your pain.  I've long wanted to start a bitcoin-settled version of Intrade (no, bitbets/betsofbitcoin/etc are not even close to being the same thing) and an exchange-cleared market for hashrate futures.  But as a US citizen and resident it's illegal for me to do these things for at least a dozen different reasons.   <philosophical-tangent> If the government actually condones your approach it amounts to an attempt for them to have it both ways -- have vague and insurmountable regulatory obstacles yet not lose out on the growing bitcoin economy.  One of the few things that pressures governments to fix situations like this is when they start getting shut out of growing markets.  Kinda like how the ITAR encryption laws in the late 90's began hurting the tech industry and handing a huge advantage to other countries -- it was only then that the crazy ITAR nonsense got fixed.  If your approach works (I don't think it will) then it will remove the only meaningful lever pushing the US government to clarify the situation and stop the harassment.  But this paragraph is really more of a philosophical exercise… I don't think it will turn out this way. </philosophical-tangent>

I'm sure a lot of old school Bitcoiners imagine the best exchanges will probably have to be based in Nigeria, or Panama, or Timbuktu.

I think peoples' fiat balances are safer at exchanges with no physical US presence, at least until the US government gets explicit about exactly what sort of compliance procedures will make them happy.  The Swiss banks could tell the IRS to go hang -- until UBS started to acquire assets in the US.  I'm gonna guess UBS has better lawyers and lobbyists than you do, and it didn't save them.

I think pretending that it's safe to operate out of the US because you have no US customers you are aware of is silly and dangerous.

Don't be surprised if some DOJ unit gets a confidential informant to send you fraudulent residency documents.

[Dargo]

Are you seriously saying that none of your employees have accounts on your own system?

Correct

Does not inspire confidence.

I'm not sure what you are worried about,

Mainly the eat-your-own-dogfood rule.

But if it's illegal for you to eat your own dog food, and it could harm your ability to provide such food for others, then the right thing to do is not eat your own dog food.

But also the fact that I think it's a big gamble for you to claim that your physical presence in the US isn't a liability simply because you turn away US resident customers.

We think it's a bigger gamble to operate outside the US and serve US customers illegally, as every exchange outside the US that's serving US customers is doing right now. Are regulators really going to go after an exchange in the US that's operating with complete legal compliance, rather than an exchange abroad that's operating illegally? That's not clear at all.  

Look, the regulatory situation sucks, and everybody knows this.  But if the feds want to bring the hammer on you guys, and you're operating out of the USA, I don't think it's going to matter whether you turn away US resident customers or not.  Intrade tried this approach and it didn't work; they're still being harrassed by US regulators and they don't even have a physical presence here!

We're not turning away US customers simply because we think our exchange is safer if we don't serve US customers at all. Rather, we're not serving US customers in certain states until we can do so legally. We do serve US customers right now where we can do so legally, and we'll be bringing more areas of the US online soon, once we've completed the necessary regulatory compliance measures. But we do think our exchange is safe because we are being super careful not to operate anywhere illegally.

On some level I feel your pain.  I've long wanted to start a bitcoin-cleared version of Intrade (no, bitbets/betsofbitcoin/etc are not even close to being the same thing) and an exchange-settled market for hashrate futures.  But as a US citizen and resident it's illegal for me to do these things for at least a dozen different reasons.


<philosophical-tangent>
On a more meta level, this seems like an attempt for the US to have it both ways -- have vague and insurmountable regulatory obstacles yet not lose out on the growing bitcoin economy.  One of the few things that pressures governments to fix situations like this is when they start getting shut out of growing markets.  Kinda like how the ITAR encryption laws in the late 90's began hurting the tech industry and handing a huge advantage to other countries -- it was only then that the crazy ITAR nonsense got repealed.  If your approach works (I don't think it will) then it will remove the only meaningful lever pushing the US government to clarify the situation and stop the harassment.  But this paragraph is really more of a philosophical exercise… I don't think it will turn out this way.
</philosophical-tangent>

I'm sure a lot of old school Bitcoiners imagine the best exchanges will probably have to be based in Nigeria, or Panama, or Timbuktu.

I think peoples' fiat balances are safer at exchanges with no physical US presence, at least until the US government gets explicit about exactly what sort of compliance procedures will make them happy.  The Swiss banks could tell the IRS to go hang -- until UBS started to acquire assets in the US.

The US regulations could be clearer, but we're interpreting them *very* conservatively, and we're confident that later clarifications will not pose an issue for us. We've done a huge amount of legal research on this. Not only do we have an in-house legal counsel, but we also have an outside team of lawyers who have put a huge amount of work into this. No offense, but I trust them over you.

Also, let's not overlook the point that the US has at least issued regulatory guidance for digital currencies, and this is a green light of sorts. It's saying these currencies are perfectly legal, but they fall under regulatory control. It isn't a forgone conclusion for countries which haven't had much to say about digital currencies that they will issue friendlier regulations once they get around to it. Some might go the way of Thailand.    

I think pretending that it's safe to operate out of the US because you have no US customers you are aware of is silly and dangerous.

Don't be surprised if some DOJ unit gets a confidential informant to send you fraudulent residency documents.

As I already pointed out, our strategy is to be legally compliant everywhere we operate. It's not based on the silly notion that we'll be "OK" if we just refuse US customers. We have lots of US customers who are trading right now, and we've collected the required kinds of information from them to verify that they live in areas we can legally service. All the law requires is that we perform adequate diligence in this regard. The system doesn't have to be 100% foolproof. No AML/KYC program could be, and regulators understand this.

[Its About Sharing]

Dargo - Ah, you are serving American customers now. I am an American living in Germany, with residency here.
Is it ok for me to trade now?

Thanks,
IAS

[Dargo]

Dargo - Ah, you are serving American customers now. I am an American living in Germany, with residency here.
Is it ok for me to trade now?

Thanks,
IAS

We've been serving American customers since launch, in many areas abroad and in a few US states. But unfortunately we are not yet servicing Germany, so you'll have to wait a little while yet. I was expecting that we'd launch in Germany late last week, but it didn't happen and I apologize for getting hopes up. I'll be very surprised if we don't launch sometime next week, but I had the same thought a week ago and ended up being very surprised. At this point all I can say is that it should be soon, but no promises and no definite ETA.

If you want, you can create an account and get pre-verified so that you're ready to fund the account as soon as we launch.

[Its About Sharing]

Dargo - Ah, you are serving American customers now. I am an American living in Germany, with residency here.
Is it ok for me to trade now?

Thanks,
IAS

We've been serving American customers since launch, in many areas abroad and in a few US states. But unfortunately we are not yet servicing Germany, so you'll have to wait a little while yet. I was expecting that we'd launch in Germany late last week, but it didn't happen and I apologize for getting hopes up. I'll be very surprised if we don't launch sometime next week, but I had the same thought a week ago and ended up being very surprised. At this point all I can say is that it should be soon, but no promises and no definite ETA.

If you want, you can create an account and get pre-verified so that you're ready to fund the account as soon as we launch.

I did and am.   
Just checking in. I forgot the problem was not serving Germany as I hadn't been in the thread in a while.

Thanks for the update.
IAS

[cyclops]

Getting better volume and lower price difference from Bitstamp ~160BTC volume

[aminorex]

what u.s. state do i need to be in in order to trade?

[aminorex]

the site seems to be unusable mobile.  every time my i.p. changes, it logs me out.  can't you do something about that? fixed computers are rapidly becoming obsolete.