Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[smooth]

Also, who will be paying you in event minions are launched?

I'm sorry you feel that way. I do not have those answers.

Note: not answered.

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[Lloydie]

Also, who will be paying you in event minions are launched?

I'm sorry you feel that way. I do not have those answers.

Note: not answered.

We need to find out, else legal enforcement will be next to impossible.

[smooth]

Also, who will be paying you in event minions are launched?

I'm sorry you feel that way. I do not have those answers.

Note: not answered.

We need to find out, else legal enforcement will be next to impossible.

Enforcement will be what it will be, you can't wish it into being something else. The lack of transparency so far is telling though.

[Lloydie]

Please note BA chips will be non competitive versus AM chips from day one on power specs. Due to delay of two months, the chances of ROI, even with doubling of hash power, is remote.

Also, a one month tapeout delay has turned into a two month delivery delay. That part requires explanation. Plus the fact they kept quiet about the whole thing.

[n00dles0up]

As a batch 1 purchaser, the last thing I want BA to do is delay batch 2 orders. I also have a batch 2 order and know full well what I was expecting in terms of difficulty and delaying that purchase as well because others have suggested it will be ridiculous. Ship in order as quick as possible but dont delay on purpose.

[CryptoGuy]

I haven't read the last 5-6 pages yet but the one thing I keep thinking about is people who want a refund, BA will try and get someone to take over their pre-order. I feel this is the perfect attack to get people to scramble for a refund so these jokers can buy up as many batch 1 miners as they can. Again, this is speculation but it seems like they're trolling pretty hard.

[smooth]

I haven't read the last 5-6 pages yet but the one thing I keep thinking about is people who want a refund, BA will try and get someone to take over their pre-order. I feel this is the perfect attack to get people to scramble for a refund so these jokers can buy up as many batch 1 miners as they can. Again, this is speculation but it seems like they're trolling pretty hard.

I do not have an order, but I do have shares of a group buy. You are more than welcome to take them over at the original price. (It is a relatively small amount of money.) If you aren't interested in doing that, than how about you shut the fuck up with this ridiculous theory that everything is just fine and people pointing out the problems with this shady situation are "trolling" and trying to trick their way into a great deal.

The "great deal" is available to you right this very second. Do you want it or not?

[terrapinflyer]

[tempestb]

If BA could afford to give people double their hash or machines don't you think they'd of done this?  They know how this works.  They don't need someone to explain to them the difficulty rises every ten days stuff and so what was expected isn't going to be of the same value as 25% extra hash rate for four months.  They know that.  They just can't afford to give away double the machines or 100% extra hash is most likely the issue.

If they could, they would have sold 4TH miners instead of 2TH and still profit from it.  

[Lloydie]

If BA could afford to give people double their hash or machines don't you think they'd of done this?  They know how this works.  They don't need someone to explain to them the difficulty rises every ten days stuff and so what was expected isn't going to be of the same value as 25% extra hash rate for four months.  They know that.  They just can't afford to give away double the machines or 100% extra hash is most likely the issue.

If they could, they would have sold 4TH miners instead of 2TH and still profit from it.  

Very good points, which indicates that chip fabrication should not go ahead and refunds should be organised.

[jimmothy]

If BA could afford to give people double their hash or machines don't you think they'd of done this?  They know how this works.  They don't need someone to explain to them the difficulty rises every ten days stuff and so what was expected isn't going to be of the same value as 25% extra hash rate for four months.  They know that.  They just can't afford to give away double the machines or 100% extra hash is most likely the issue.

If they could, they would have sold 4TH miners instead of 2TH and still profit from it.  

Very good points, which indicates that chip fabrication should not go ahead and refunds should be organised.

You pretend like you know what the difficulty will be in 2 months.

Why don't you just request a refund and quit bitching?

BA is not going to ship us hardware that cost $500 to manufacture when we paid $350 for it just because they are 2 months late. They will ship us hardware that meets the advertised specs and anything more is a generous gift.

If you don't want a 120gh/s device in ~2 months (which still happens to be the best priced) then you should request a refund as there is little chance you are going to get the 200% extra hashrate you feel you deserve.

[jimmothy]

@OleOle ... Mountains of Prosperos on Ebay 

Well... As far as I know, there are just 2 offers !

Once again... Why some people want to destroy BA with lies, wrong information, trying to scare every potentiel buyer ... When will know why these people are acting this way, then will know the hidden reasons of their behaviour !

By the way, I dont quit BA ... I do trust them being able to provide us what we funded !

Michel.

Apparently you can make a mountain out of 2 prosperos?

I can think of 2 reasons people would want to troll BA:

- They own antminers and don't want to get destroyed

- They are trolls who take pleasure in telling people how stupid they are for buying a product that happened to have delays

[jimmothy]

People keep saying request a refund, which is what I am trying to do, but to my knowledge,minersource does not have a way to do this. So lets explore that channel and figure out a way to get me my money. If anyone wants to buy my x-3 and 8 x-1's please let me know.  People will continue to request a refund until a channel is opened by which this can happen.  If this launch will be as successful as it is still made out to be, then not many people will be requesting refunds and it shouldn't be a problem or break the bank.

And for those saying that BA can't swing anymore than 25%, that should matter very little. If you make customers happy with your product launch, you will be very well off on the future and make a ton of money, and if that means taking a loss now, well who cares. Make your customers happy and they will come back, but make your customers mad, and we won't be purchasing again in the future, and you will go broke.

You probably missed it due to all the garbage in this thread but bobsag said he will be talking with BA to clarify refunds soon.

And BA is dealing with refunds through their support ticket system I believe.

[ChuckBuck]

That's what I'm waiting for also, to hear refund policy for Minersource customers.

Who wants a measly 25% increase in hashing power in May after Cointerra and KNC hit the network? (probably same time frame)

Doesn't seem like they want to do right by their customers.  If I could apply that refund towards Bitmain now or Asicminer in March/April I will in a heartbeat.

[BlackArrow Matt]

<snip>

As for any updates, I'm trying to get a solid answer on where we're at. I'm going to start pressing the issue with our other teams. I will let you know what I find as quickly as possible. I'm sorry for the delays here, we've had a hectic few weeks.

If we can organize a list of questions, I can try getting answers.

Gotta love Google!

You just quoted two of my posts that aren't even remotely related to each other. On the 25th I was getting bombarded with questions about where we're at with the process. I hadn't heard anything and said I'd try to figure out where we're at. This was before the announcement of our delay.

The recent post was in regards to people throwing all sorts of questions at me that I can not answer. If we can organize a list of 10-20 questions, I can try to get answers.

And otherwise... yes... gotta love google... ?

[Waramp22]

yep.  Cointerra and KnC obviously recognize the fact that they can't cost their customers a ton of money and expect to survive.

Either route will work, in terms of adding hash power permanently or supplying equivalent hash power until the units are delivered.   It's math, so figure out what is the actual equivalent of the loss to customers.

On a side note, KnC's assertion that they are setting up a massive mine is bad news for the rest of us, as they're going to knock the difficulty up.

These people aren't doing these things out of a sense of decency.  It's business.  You screw your customers and you're out of business.  End of story.  Contrary to assertions that I've seen that these machines were not meant to generate fiat, that's malarkey, this is about money.  Blowing smoke to try to make it as if it is not is simply BS.

As a consumer, I'd like to see all three ASIC manufacturers survive, as this will help drive innovation and bring costs down.  If BA continues with nothing but this additional 25% for 4 months or whatever it was, they're done.  The market won't forget it.  

I won't order another BA product, period, if this is the way they treat their customers.  Even if they promise the greatest, most efficient, powerful unit in the history of the planet, their assertions, claims, promises don't mean a thing if their reputation is that they stood by and let their customers take a bath, while the other manufacturers stepped up and made it right.  

Agreed. Couple things I want to mention in this thread:

1 - Black Arrow doesn't have enough Bitfury boards to offer much hash power until May 1st when the delivery date comes.
2 - Black Arrow doesn't have any X-1s or X-3s to use for hashing from Feb 24th to May 1st when the delivery date comes.

So we might as well forget about the whole "give us hash power" on February 24th scenario. They have nothing to use. Black Arrow isn't going to break down and go buy machines from other suppliers in order to keep their customers happy. (although it would be nice)

All that we can hope for is for them to increase the amount of "bonus" hashpower to something worth while by spending their own profit on hosted machines. Or they can just increase the duration of the 25% bonus. (by a lot)

Here is a proposed offer for Batch 1 customers - 50% off an equal order for batch 2 equipment and forget about the 25% bonus!

[breakingcode]

If we can organize a list of questions, I can try getting answers.

I have to admit I raged pretty hard when I got my e-mail, but we all knew this was a risk going in, I've come to terms with it, soooo having said that, it seems to me that the "Big list O' Questions" would be something similar to the following:

1. Can you please assign someone to be on top of these questions and concerns in an expedient manner? It's been made obvious this is a absolute customer requirement.

2. Refunds/Rebates/Discounts/Hardware etc..
It's obvious (based on the competition, the delays, etc.. that the 25% for 4 months isn't adequate compensation for Batch 1.

Was that a first draft, proposal? Would you consider the options listed (1 additional unit per unit ordered, 100% of hashing power in additional months to equal missed hashing power since missed date, direct BTC compensation from the BA farms, credit against the scrypt miner in development/BA products etc..)

Some people will be adamant about a refund will this be possible (if wired/if paid in BTC?)

3. Previous information released.
I'm not an engineer but it seems a few people who actually understand the manufacturing timelines are saying that you *had* to know there was in issue well in advance of telling us. What was this, why weren't we informed that there were "issues" at all etc..

4. How much internal hashing are you doing "for BA profit", how many BTC have you generated in testing units prepping for sale?

5. For the people worried if this is vaporware.
Can you work with your assembly/mfg's etc.. to provide an immediate "proof of work" that this is a "real thing"?

6. Can you just give me insane amounts of BTC for being so rational (hey it's about time SOMEONE got rewarded for it!)
13nSo7DNVL6yZg5V4WoE1tikpW43yVphvp

Anyone else want to add some stuff? (PLEASE, no matter how much you hate on them for whatever reason good or bad, can you just hold off on replies to this, so we can get some answers. Even if you think they're pretend,.. please let US get some info.

[Lloydie]

Key questions for me:

If Jan 3 is delayed to Feb 1, how come delivery is pushed out from Feb 24 to May 1?

The tapeout delay is one month, the delivery delay is two months and 3 days. Makes no sense.

This suggests that at Jan 3, even before tapeout, the delivery date of Feb 24 was not possible.  No announcement of this was made and BA kept selling machines knowing the targets would be missed. Why?

Also, on Jan 3, when it was realised that tapeout was behind schedule, why were no announcements made?  

Further, on Jan 3, why did BA continue to represent that everything was on schedule and why did they keep taking money for batch 2?  

Failure to address these questions to date makes me question BA's motivation in all of this.

[Lloydie]

Black Arrow isn't going to break down and go buy machines from other suppliers in order to keep their customers happy. (although it would be nice)

BA doesn't have to buy machines from others, they can get AM chips like they did with the bitfuries. The AM chips are going to be two months earlier and will kill BA's chips on current performance specs.  

0.35 versus 0.75 w/ghs TT
0.2 versus 0.5(?) w/ghs SS

I'm keen to salvage something out of this.  The BA back end team has failed.  That should be acknowledged. Let's move forward.

Edit: I have no idea what PG posted above as he is on my ignore. Please don't quote him if at all possible. Makes me rage less.

[jimmothy]

Black Arrow isn't going to break down and go buy machines from other suppliers in order to keep their customers happy. (although it would be nice)

BA doesn't have to buy machines from others, they can get AM chips like they did with the bitfuries. The AM chips are going to be two months earlier and will kill BA's chips on current performance specs.  

0.35 versus 0.75 w/ghs TT
0.2 versus 0.5(?) w/ghs SS

I'm keen to salvage something out of this.  The BA back end team has failed.  That should be acknowledged. Let's move forward.

How will they be 2 months earlier when BA and AM are both going to tapeout around feb 15?

Do you even have an order with BA or are you just here to create fud?