Alpha Technology Litecoin (Scrypt) ASIC Miner Order Batch 1 Now!

[vesperwillow]

The chips are hopefully received sometime in early July. I think we are getting close to the delivery date as the mentioned they paid extra for a quicker delivery.

Well speaking of facts, they didn't pay extra for quicker shipping, they paid for extra chips and to bypass the Q&A testing. This way they get more chips, but they're of unknown quality. This cuts out fab time so it seems like there's a quicker delivery, but the specification will have variance from the design yield.

This means what one chip will do, another may not. Which is just another big red flag. If there's one thing you don't do, it's rush chips out the door skipping Q&A.

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[Its About Sharing]

The chips are hopefully received sometime in early July. I think we are getting close to the delivery date as the mentioned they paid extra for a quicker delivery.

Well speaking of facts, they didn't pay extra for quicker shipping, they paid for extra chips and to bypass the Q&A testing. This way they get more chips, but they're of unknown quality. This cuts out fab time so it seems like there's a quicker delivery, but the specification will have variance from the design yield.

This means what one chip will do, another may not. Which is just another big red flag. If there's one thing you don't do, it's rush chips out the door skipping Q&A.

This is from May 26th. I'd like to know when AT started the tape out. Taken from: https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=2859.msg175063#msg175063
I bolded a few key points.

"Hi there,

I did say we would try and we definitely wanted to do this as it seemed like the obvious approach at the time however after thoroughly analyzing our options to ship as efficiently as possible with our VP of ASIC development Eric Gunn we decided it was not the best approach if we want to ship ASAP. We did try to hold it off as much as possible (despite cries on this forum for final payment) but taking it now will allow us to order crucial components earlier so we can start large scale all at once. We will not be shipping slowly as we intend to have all units our within a time frame of 2 weeks. Traditionally sample chips are sent after tape-out then 1-2 months after that is when you get your wafer orders sent to you. What we have done is order the majority of our chips all at once with the tape-out, we paid extra for these (20% more) for speed. And getting these  chips with tape-out will take a little bit longer than normal but we will get a huge bulk of chips to assemble into devices so in the long-run we are shipping quicker. So we cannot demonstrate the product yet, if we had the chips to demonstrate a product we would have shipped units by now, this is the fastest way to get the product to you."

ps - You don't have to try rubbing the "speaking of facts" thing in. I'm just trying to not let this go over a cliff. I think it is clear what many think of AT, but reading this thread has become a bunch of name calling, hateful posts, etc. and it makes a real discussion difficult. I'm not siding with anyone but I'd like to be able to discuss the situation as we get closer to a shipping date.

[vesperwillow]

Q&A or QC?

QC. I was thinking 'quality assurance' when I wrote that. Thanks.

[s1gs3gv]

I'm just trying to not let this go over a cliff.

IAS it looks like it has already gone over the cliff.

The biggest tell is Fiaz's recent appearance here not to answer the large number of reasonable questions and concerns posted by many, but to dispute the Moss Side allegation.

Really … do these guys make you feel confident that they will deliver on their promises on schedule ?

[Its About Sharing]

I'm just trying to not let this go over a cliff.

IAS it looks like it has already gone over the cliff.

The biggest tell is Fiaz's recent appearance here not to answer the large number of reasonable questions and concerns posted by many, but to dispute the Moss Side allegation.

Really … do these guys make you feel confident that they will deliver on their promises on schedule ?

I think confidence of the users reading here is what is totally destroyed.
We still have at least a month for things to work out.

TBH my confidence is much lower, and as I said a few pages back, I may not go through with things.
I don't deny or ignore the dodging of questions and that is mostly what got me alarmed, not what
People here said. Though again, great questions and points were brought up (and specifically by Retro
And Vesper). I just didn't want things to spiral worse and so just spoke up about the personal attacks.
That said, perhaps I would be not so centered if I had more at stake.

AT needs to show us something to bring back the confidence. And I have a great idea.
Maybe we can hold off on paying what we owe until they have a working model? If they are on schedule, and since they said they don't need the funds yet for production, all parties might then succeed.
They did mention something on their forum about late payments. I forget exactly.

Anyway, since confidence is low, a solution emniable to all parties might relieve the
Pressure here.

[s1gs3gv]

I'm just trying to not let this go over a cliff.

IAS it looks like it has already gone over the cliff.

The biggest tell is Fiaz's recent appearance here not to answer the large number of reasonable questions and concerns posted by many, but to dispute the Moss Side allegation.

Really … do these guys make you feel confident that they will deliver on their promises on schedule ?

I think confidence of the users reading here is what is totally destroyed.
We still have at least a month for things to work out.

TBH my confidence is much lower, and as I said a few pages back, I may not go through with things.
I don't deny or ignore the dodging of questions and that is mostly what got me alarmed, not what
People here said. Though again, great questions and points were brought up (and specifically by Retro
And Vesper). I just didn't want things to spiral worse and so just spoke up about the personal attacks.
That said, perhaps I would be not so centered if I had more at stake.

AT needs to show us something to bring back the confidence. And I have a great idea.
Maybe we can hold off on paying what we owe until they have a working model? If they are on schedule, and since they said they don't need the funds yet for production, all parties might then succeed.
They did mention something on their forum about late payments. I forget exactly.

Anyway, since confidence is low, a solution emniable to all parties might relieve the
Pressure here.

Is that a strategy that runs the risk of encouraging people to defer asking for refunds until after the refund cutoff date ?

[retro72]

This is from May 26th. I'd like to know when AT started the tape out. Taken from: https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=2859.msg175063#msg175063
I bolded a few key points.

I also posted this on the next page:

"We started tape-out just under a month ago, along with our tape-out we have paid extra for 'risk lots' which are early wafers in bulk, we will get a huge amount of chips as soon as tape-out finishes which means we will be shipping sooner rather later so not to worry."

As has been pointed out before. Alpha are paying extra for "risk lot" chips these are first run sample wafers which have not undergone the normal amount of testing, refinement and quality control. This means they will ship quicker but it throws reliability into question. The chips could be absolutely fine or they could be complete rubbish. Not only that, Alpha are also cutting testing time which was supposed to be a standard 20 days. This leaves long term reliability testing down to the end user.

After reading the Alpha update there were a few issues that spring to mind.

1) Where are they in the chip manufacturing process? This nebulous time scale of a few days doesn't help anyone. There are clear steps in the chip manufacturing process and you can accurately gauge chip delivery by how far along you are. Have they finished tapeout? Do they have the masks? Do they have the wafers? Have they finished fabout or bumpout? Are they in the packing house? An answer to any one of those questions will tell you when they will get their chips.

2)The case design. Removing the PSUs was their only option (apart from a larger case) but this and the case design means the units will no longer be rack mountable. This may not be an issue for some but for others it will be. In fact there is a thread on the Alpha forums where Fiaz is dodging this very issue. Also there still doesn't seem to be enough room for decent sized heatsinks in that design. Dissipating 1900 watts of heat will not be an easy task with just fans moving ambient air around. An Alpha supporter (Freejack) posted on this on their forum:

"As for cooling, these systems are going to have to be used with a room cooling/heat dissipation strategy the way any high density servers would. You can't get away with just fans...the ambient heat that you're circulating into the systems will cause them to get hotter and hotter".

I'm sure this is not acceptable to most of Alpha's customers.

3)Do they have their PCBs?  Its a little late in the day to still be designing your PCBs. If your chips are arriving any day that is. KNC had their Neptune PCBs a month ago. Cointerra started manufacturing their PCBs (and enclosures) while their wafers were in fabout. If the chips arrive next week what will they put them in? They have no cases, PCBs or powersupplys.

4)Power supplies. If they are buying off the shelf power supplies. Who are the manufacturers and what is the energy efficiency rating. This is pretty critical as cheap power supplies can and do burst into flames.  An inefficient power supply means more power draw at the wall as well as more heat. I wouldn't want anything less than an 80+ Gold from a reliable manufacturer if I was running it 24/7

I would suggest the customers here that still have access to their forums put these issues/questions directly to Alpha and see what the response is. Personally I would wait until after the payment processor is up and they publish a more comprehensive update before paying a penny more. Apparently you will have 2 weeks after the processor is on board to pay. If Alpha are on target they should be able to show a working test unit in that time. If not, you should walk away.

[Its About Sharing]

I'm just trying to not let this go over a cliff.

IAS it looks like it has already gone over the cliff.

The biggest tell is Fiaz's recent appearance here not to answer the large number of reasonable questions and concerns posted by many, but to dispute the Moss Side allegation.

Really … do these guys make you feel confident that they will deliver on their promises on schedule ?

I think confidence of the users reading here is what is totally destroyed.
We still have at least a month for things to work out.

TBH my confidence is much lower, and as I said a few pages back, I may not go through with things.
I don't deny or ignore the dodging of questions and that is mostly what got me alarmed, not what
People here said. Though again, great questions and points were brought up (and specifically by Retro
And Vesper). I just didn't want things to spiral worse and so just spoke up about the personal attacks.
That said, perhaps I would be not so centered if I had more at stake.

AT needs to show us something to bring back the confidence. And I have a great idea.
Maybe we can hold off on paying what we owe until they have a working model? If they are on schedule, and since they said they don't need the funds yet for production, all parties might then succeed.
They did mention something on their forum about late payments. I forget exactly.

Anyway, since confidence is low, a solution emniable to all parties might relieve the
Pressure here.

Is that a strategy that runs the risk of encouraging people to defer asking for refunds until after the refund cutoff date ?

I was thinking that most people placed their orders early on. Wasn't even considering refund cutoff dates.
But like I said, if AT wants this to work, then they might have to do what they can to make people stick around. All or nothing so to speak.
So, for those who fall under a refund cutoff date, AT would have to then extend it out accordingly.

[Phorna]

We all know how it went with BFL. Enclosed link for their timeline and its execution. Good (short) lecture about some potential bumps on the road.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/692-bfl-asic-status.html

Please notice, that when it comes to updates, BFL had done very good job actually. They were much more informative than Alpha currently is. You could see a lot of WIP pictures of wafers, test chips, chips, boards as the progress continued. Right now Alpha wants to compress the process, that BFL needed 5 months to complete,  to 2-3 weeks.

[Its About Sharing]

This is from May 26th. I'd like to know when AT started the tape out. Taken from: https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=2859.msg175063#msg175063
I bolded a few key points.

I also posted this on the next page:

"We started tape-out just under a month ago, along with our tape-out we have paid extra for 'risk lots' which are early wafers in bulk, we will get a huge amount of chips as soon as tape-out finishes which means we will be shipping sooner rather later so not to worry."

As has been pointed out before. Alpha are paying extra for "risk lot" chips these are first run sample wafers which have not undergone the normal amount of testing, refinement and quality control. This means they will ship quicker but it throws reliability into question. The chips could be absolutely fine or they could be complete rubbish. Not only that, Alpha are also cutting testing time which was supposed to be a standard 20 days. This leaves long term reliability testing down to the end user.

I know this can be a serious problem but chances are probably pretty good that these chips work fine due to 3 reasons: 1 - Very simple design relative to CPU's and more complicated processors. 2 - They have been working on the design a while so hopefully they got it right. (I know, there is that word again). 3 - They are not the first to design ASIC's. A bit has come before them and hopefully they have done their DD. But point taken, it is a chance. And all the more reason to extend the payment cut off date as I said above.

Those chips should either be finished or just about finished as it has been, what, 2+ months now?

After reading the Alpha update there were a few issues that spring to mind.

1) Where are they in the chip manufacturing process? This nebulous time scale of a few days doesn't help anyone. There are clear steps in the chip manufacturing process and you can accurately gauge chip delivery by how far along you are. Have they finished tapeout? Do they have the masks? Do they have the wafers? Have they finished fabout or bumpout? Are they in the packing house? An answer to any one of those questions will tell you when they will get their chips.

Agreed

2)The case design. Removing the PSUs was their only option (apart from a larger case) but this and the case design means the units will no longer be rack mountable. This may not be an issue for some but for others it will be. In fact there is a thread on the Alpha forums where Fiaz is dodging this very issue. Also there still doesn't seem to be enough room for decent sized heatsinks in that design. Dissipating 1900 watts of heat will not be an easy task with just fans moving ambient air around. An Alpha supporter (Freejack) posted on this on their forum:

"As for cooling, these systems are going to have to be used with a room cooling/heat dissipation strategy the way any high density servers would. You can't get away with just fans...the ambient heat that you're circulating into the systems will cause them to get hotter and hotter".

I'm sure this is not acceptable to most of Alpha's customers.

Isn't this the same as any miner, regardless of where the PS units are? I would even venture to say that external PS's are better for cooling as it is that much more heat removed from the cases.
I have just a 50Mh unit on order. 400 watts should be fine in my room, as long as there is adequate air flow. I will probably have to replace the stock fans with something more quiet though, as I have a feeling they will be on the loud side.
But for those who have the larger units, yes, they better be ready for all the wattage (draw) and heat. And very good point about the rack mountability. Perhaps the depth of the rack is enough to place the PS's in the front or back and out of the way of the air flow? No idea.

3)Do they have their PCBs?  Its a little late in the day to still be designing your PCBs. If your chips are arriving any day that is. KNC had their Neptune PCBs a month ago. Cointerra started manufacturing their PCBs (and enclosures) while their wafers were in fabout. If the chips arrive next week what will they put them in? They have no cases, PCBs or powersupplys.

Agreed

4)Power supplies. If they are buying off the shelf power supplies. Who are the manufacturers and what is the energy efficiency rating. This is pretty critical as cheap power supplies can and do burst into flames.  An inefficient power supply means more power draw at the wall as well as more heat. I wouldn't want anything less than an 80+ Gold from a reliable manufacturer if I was running it 24/7

Mostly agree. They mentioned that the components in their miners will be industrial. I would greatly hope that they stick with that plan there and extend it into the PS's. I have a now decommissioned 80Gh/s btc miner (group buy) and the new High End PS unit (albeit a newer model) lasted about 4 or 5 months before cutting off under 24X7 use. So this is a concern. Amazon offered me a refund as they had no more in stock, so I figured the 80 bucks put into BTC is more than I would mine back minus costs over the next year.

I would suggest the customers here that still have access to their forums put these issues/questions directly to Alpha and see what the response is. Personally I would wait until after the payment processor is up and they publish a more comprehensive update before paying a penny more. Apparently you will have 2 weeks after the processor is on board to pay. If Alpha are on target they should be able to show a working test unit in that time. If not, you should walk away.

You have a nice collection of questions and points. To have this organized with the input of other people and to be posted on their forum seems reasonable.
Thanks for the information.
IAS

[brian_23452]

Its About Sharing,

The thing is all those things you mentioned were promised in the original deal that customers payed for.  It would be a little like paying an extra 5k to have leather seats in your car, then you go to take delivery and the seats are cloth, and the sales guy tries to tell you how cloth is better cause you won't burn yourself on a hot day (but of course won't give back the 5 grand). 

You like to ask questions, so here is one for you.  Why do you think this is going to turn out well?  It is obvious to anyone that doesn't have stake in this company that they will not be completed on schedule.  And even if it is, do you really think they are going to send it to you?  They are very open about also building a cloud mining operation.  Do you really think they are going to give you machines first and then themselves?  Given that they have no contractual delivery date with you can deliver whenever they feel like it, or not at all?

It isn't like this company came along and said they know how preorders have gone in the past and they wanted to do it different, and then did things different.  This preorder has gone so far exactly like every other proerder ever, and we all know how those turned out for customers.  So my question to you is, given that they have done things exactly the same, why do you think this will somehow turn out different for customers?

[diego2000]

Its About Sharing,

The thing is all those things you mentioned were promised in the original deal that customers payed for.  It would be a little like paying an extra 5k to have leather seats in your car, then you go to take delivery and the seats are cloth, and the sales guy tries to tell you how cloth is better cause you won't burn yourself on a hot day (but of course won't give back the 5 grand). 

You like to ask questions, so here is one for you.  Why do you think this is going to turn out well?  It is obvious to anyone that doesn't have stake in this company that they will not be completed on schedule.  And even if it is, do you really think they are going to send it to you?  They are very open about also building a cloud mining operation.  Do you really think they are going to give you machines first and then themselves?  Given that they have no contractual delivery date with you can deliver whenever they feel like it, or not at all?

It isn't like this company came along and said they know how preorders have gone in the past and they wanted to do it different, and then did things different.  This preorder has gone so far exactly like every other proerder ever, and we all know how those turned out for customers.  So my question to you is, given that they have done things exactly the same, why do you think this will somehow turn out different for customers?

I know you asked IAS, but I hope you won't be offended if I jump in.

The highlighted above is a bit of a stretch, since you are basically saying that all people (and companies) are the same.
I choose to give someone (or a company) the benefit of a doubt, before I crucify them.

The question on my mind is not, whether AT wants to do right by their customers. I truly believe they want to.
The real question is if they can.

Our position as customers is not actually that bad, since we have two weeks from the date that the payment processor is up, to pay the balance. By then, they should have something of importance to show us.

So, right now, we have the luxury of being able to wait for the real update, since this last one was forced by many on their forum.

My 2 cents

[ThomasCrowne]

For those of you that got burnt by these guys despite all the warnings given by other forum members and photos of the said workshop, fear not, for I too am releasing my own 1000Mh/s miner in a couple of months, and am accepting pre-orders. Just send 2BTC to 1JFm3AuzB7HB56ZvycEd1KKiFRKEG8WeZt and I'll do you a special deal! I'll even throw in a set of free steak knives for the first 100 orders.

Oh man...you ain't even right!!  Didn't lose any money personally with these guys but a good friend of mine paid for his entire order in BTC.

[diego2000]

For those of you that got burnt by these guys despite all the warnings given by other forum members and photos of the said workshop, fear not, for I too am releasing my own 1000Mh/s miner in a couple of months, and am accepting pre-orders. Just send 2BTC to 1JFm3AuzB7HB56ZvycEd1KKiFRKEG8WeZt and I'll do you a special deal! I'll even throw in a set of free steak knives for the first 100 orders.

Oh man...you ain't even right!!  Didn't lose any money personally with these guys but a good friend of mine paid for his entire order in BTC.

Your friend paying the entire order in BTC makes no sense at all because:

-BTC payments where not available for pre order deposits (if I remember correctly...go ahead and correct me, if I'm wrong)
-paying the balance was not necessary, since it was made clear by AT, that you have two weeks after credit cards where accepted to pay

What am I missing?

[vesperwillow]

Their cooling lingo just caught my eye, after re-reading their update. They're saying how you'll *have* to have an official air cooling system (air conditioning, etc) to compliment their gear, instead of just relying on fans. That's kindof odd.

I'm not saying it isn't smart, or that it wouldn't help, but it shouldn't be a requirement if the system is designed with proper thermal dissipation in mind. The PCB's need wide copper lines in the right places, and you just need the right cooling on the chip itself. I've seen Blade units stacked in hot rooms without issues, so why would AT's stuff "need" extra cooling? Especially running at lower wattage.

Unless it's their way of legally wiping their hands of instability issues down the road, with chips with high variance of quality.

Is it just me, am I mis-reading their wording?

[diego2000]

Their cooling lingo just caught my eye, after re-reading their update. They're saying how you'll *have* to have an official air cooling system (air conditioning, etc) to compliment their gear, instead of just relying on fans. That's kindof odd.

I'm not saying it isn't smart, or that it wouldn't help, but it shouldn't be a requirement if the system is designed with proper thermal dissipation in mind. The PCB's need wide copper lines in the right places, and you just need the right cooling on the chip itself. I've seen Blade units stacked in hot rooms without issues, so why would AT's stuff "need" extra cooling? Especially running at lower wattage.

Unless it's their way of legally wiping their hands of instability issues down the road, with chips with high variance of quality.

Is it just me, am I mis-reading their wording?

I do not see anything about having to have a special air cooling system in the update.

Spreading FUD much?

[brian_23452]

Its About Sharing,

The thing is all those things you mentioned were promised in the original deal that customers payed for.  It would be a little like paying an extra 5k to have leather seats in your car, then you go to take delivery and the seats are cloth, and the sales guy tries to tell you how cloth is better cause you won't burn yourself on a hot day (but of course won't give back the 5 grand). 

You like to ask questions, so here is one for you.  Why do you think this is going to turn out well?  It is obvious to anyone that doesn't have stake in this company that they will not be completed on schedule.  And even if it is, do you really think they are going to send it to you?  They are very open about also building a cloud mining operation.  Do you really think they are going to give you machines first and then themselves?  Given that they have no contractual delivery date with you can deliver whenever they feel like it, or not at all?

It isn't like this company came along and said they know how preorders have gone in the past and they wanted to do it different, and then did things different.  This preorder has gone so far exactly like every other proerder ever, and we all know how those turned out for customers.  So my question to you is, given that they have done things exactly the same, why do you think this will somehow turn out different for customers?

I know you asked IAS, but I hope you won't be offended if I jump in.

The highlighted above is a bit of a stretch, since you are basically saying that all people (and companies) are the same.
I choose to give someone (or a company) the benefit of a doubt, before I crucify them.

The question on my mind is not, whether AT wants to do right by their customers. I truly believe they want to.
The real question is if they can.

Our position as customers is not actually that bad, since we have two weeks from the date that the payment processor is up, to pay the balance. By then, they should have something of importance to show us.

So, right now, we have the luxury of being able to wait for the real update, since this last one was forced by many on their forum.

My 2 cents

How is it a stretch at all?  We know they are miners.  They have said as much.  We also know that if by some miracle they can pull this off, they will for a very very short period of time have in their hands the most powerful miner on the market.  You honestly believe they are going to leave millions of dollars on the table and ship those miners to their customers?  Really?  Bearing in mind that the contract with their customers specifically states that there is NO guaranteed delivery date and they can deliver whenever they want, or not at all (essentially refunding instead)?  Put another way, say YOU had a couple hundred 250Mh/s miners right now.  Would you really head down to Fed Ex tomorrow and ship them off, or would you wait a while, make some money, and THEN sell them?  All due respect, I think it is very naive to think they would leave all that money on the table.  I only mentioned other companies because to date, no company has picked their customers over themselves when placed in that position.  So it seems to me a bit like a little kid who has stuck his finger in every electrical outlet in the house but he is going to do it one last time because hey, this outlet may be different.  

But the question still stands.  What has this particular company done differently that makes you think this is going to turn out better for the customers than all the other preorders before it?

[diego2000]

Its About Sharing,

The thing is all those things you mentioned were promised in the original deal that customers payed for.  It would be a little like paying an extra 5k to have leather seats in your car, then you go to take delivery and the seats are cloth, and the sales guy tries to tell you how cloth is better cause you won't burn yourself on a hot day (but of course won't give back the 5 grand). 

You like to ask questions, so here is one for you.  Why do you think this is going to turn out well?  It is obvious to anyone that doesn't have stake in this company that they will not be completed on schedule.  And even if it is, do you really think they are going to send it to you?  They are very open about also building a cloud mining operation.  Do you really think they are going to give you machines first and then themselves?  Given that they have no contractual delivery date with you can deliver whenever they feel like it, or not at all?

It isn't like this company came along and said they know how preorders have gone in the past and they wanted to do it different, and then did things different.  This preorder has gone so far exactly like every other proerder ever, and we all know how those turned out for customers.  So my question to you is, given that they have done things exactly the same, why do you think this will somehow turn out different for customers?

I know you asked IAS, but I hope you won't be offended if I jump in.

The highlighted above is a bit of a stretch, since you are basically saying that all people (and companies) are the same.
I choose to give someone (or a company) the benefit of a doubt, before I crucify them.

The question on my mind is not, whether AT wants to do right by their customers. I truly believe they want to.
The real question is if they can.

Our position as customers is not actually that bad, since we have two weeks from the date that the payment processor is up, to pay the balance. By then, they should have something of importance to show us.

So, right now, we have the luxury of being able to wait for the real update, since this last one was forced by many on their forum.

My 2 cents

How is it a stretch at all?  We know they are miners.  They have said as much.  We also know that if by some miracle they can pull this off, they will for a very very short period of time have in their hands the most powerful miner on the market.  You honestly believe they are going to leave millions of dollars on the table and ship those miners to their customers?  Really?  Bearing in mind that the contract with their customers specifically states that there is NO guaranteed delivery date and they can deliver whenever they want, or not at all (essentially refunding instead)?  Put another way, say YOU had a couple hundred 250Mh/s miners right now.  Would you really head down to Fed Ex tomorrow and ship them off, or would you wait a while, make some money, and THEN sell them?  All due respect, I think it is very naive to think they would leave all that money on the table.  I only mentioned other companies because to date, no company has picked their customers over themselves when placed in that position.  So it seems to me a bit like a little kid who has stuck his finger in every electrical outlet in the house but he is going to do it one last time because hey, this outlet may be different.  

But the question still stands.  What has this particular company done differently that makes you think this is going to turn out better for the customers than all the other preorders before it?

You know we could discuss this questions to oblivion. What I highlighted is the real question.

I believe AT wants to be in the Asic business, not the mining (at least not for now). If that is true, then they will send them out as soon as they get them, even if they want to make money mining. With the good press they would get, there would be an immense amount of money coming in for batch 2.

[brian_23452]

Its About Sharing,

The thing is all those things you mentioned were promised in the original deal that customers payed for.  It would be a little like paying an extra 5k to have leather seats in your car, then you go to take delivery and the seats are cloth, and the sales guy tries to tell you how cloth is better cause you won't burn yourself on a hot day (but of course won't give back the 5 grand). 

You like to ask questions, so here is one for you.  Why do you think this is going to turn out well?  It is obvious to anyone that doesn't have stake in this company that they will not be completed on schedule.  And even if it is, do you really think they are going to send it to you?  They are very open about also building a cloud mining operation.  Do you really think they are going to give you machines first and then themselves?  Given that they have no contractual delivery date with you can deliver whenever they feel like it, or not at all?

It isn't like this company came along and said they know how preorders have gone in the past and they wanted to do it different, and then did things different.  This preorder has gone so far exactly like every other proerder ever, and we all know how those turned out for customers.  So my question to you is, given that they have done things exactly the same, why do you think this will somehow turn out different for customers?

I know you asked IAS, but I hope you won't be offended if I jump in.

The highlighted above is a bit of a stretch, since you are basically saying that all people (and companies) are the same.
I choose to give someone (or a company) the benefit of a doubt, before I crucify them.

The question on my mind is not, whether AT wants to do right by their customers. I truly believe they want to.
The real question is if they can.

Our position as customers is not actually that bad, since we have two weeks from the date that the payment processor is up, to pay the balance. By then, they should have something of importance to show us.

So, right now, we have the luxury of being able to wait for the real update, since this last one was forced by many on their forum.

My 2 cents

How is it a stretch at all?  We know they are miners.  They have said as much.  We also know that if by some miracle they can pull this off, they will for a very very short period of time have in their hands the most powerful miner on the market.  You honestly believe they are going to leave millions of dollars on the table and ship those miners to their customers?  Really?  Bearing in mind that the contract with their customers specifically states that there is NO guaranteed delivery date and they can deliver whenever they want, or not at all (essentially refunding instead)?  Put another way, say YOU had a couple hundred 250Mh/s miners right now.  Would you really head down to Fed Ex tomorrow and ship them off, or would you wait a while, make some money, and THEN sell them?  All due respect, I think it is very naive to think they would leave all that money on the table.  I only mentioned other companies because to date, no company has picked their customers over themselves when placed in that position.  So it seems to me a bit like a little kid who has stuck his finger in every electrical outlet in the house but he is going to do it one last time because hey, this outlet may be different.  

But the question still stands.  What has this particular company done differently that makes you think this is going to turn out better for the customers than all the other preorders before it?

You know we could discuss this questions to oblivion. What I highlighted is the real question.

I believe AT wants to be in the Asic business, not the mining (at least not for now). If that is true, then they will send them out as soon as they get them, even if they want to make money mining. With the good press they would get, there would be an immense amount of money coming in for batch 2.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then.  I think it is very obvious they want to be in the mining business.  They didn't build a cloud mining center just to test these things.  They could have picked any microprocessor industry they wanted to and they picked this one?  Why would they pick Scrypt ASICS if they didn't want to get into mining? 
I think your answer demonstrates a fundamental misconception about how this industry operates.  NONE of these ASIC manufacturers are in this business of  selling miners to customers.  None of them.  When bitcoin (and now Litecoin) became valuable enough for large scale mining operations to be profitable, a number of companies saw the potential of building purpose built machines for mining.  The idea of selling preorders to customers is simply a means of financing that leaves the company with an interest free loan from people who have no claim on their assets and no oversight (banks and venture capitalists demand things like transparency, oversight, risk management, you know, all the things that customers complain about but agree to do without anyway)  Trust me, if these things retained their value at all you would never get anything, they would just refund you.  As it is, with these things losing their value so quickly, it provides them with a great interest free loan, and then a place to dump off their old products when they don't need them anymore.  Meanwhile, people like you think you are an actual [valued] customer and can't imagine why they treat you like crap.  Never realizing that they never wanted customers in the first place.  And besides, they don't have to treat anyone nicely.  They can treat you like complete garbage and still get, what was it you called it?  The benefit of the doubt. 

Anyways, I guess there isn't really anything left to say about this company.  To all who ordered from them, I wish you the best of luck.  Hopefully you didn't lose too much money when the dust settles.  I guess the good news for people who like to throw their money away, GAW just announced their preorders for fourth quarter.  So I'm sure we will be having this exact same discussion again soon. 

[Its About Sharing]

Its About Sharing,

The thing is all those things you mentioned were promised in the original deal that customers payed for.  It would be a little like paying an extra 5k to have leather seats in your car, then you go to take delivery and the seats are cloth, and the sales guy tries to tell you how cloth is better cause you won't burn yourself on a hot day (but of course won't give back the 5 grand). 

You like to ask questions, so here is one for you.  Why do you think this is going to turn out well?  It is obvious to anyone that doesn't have stake in this company that they will not be completed on schedule.  And even if it is, do you really think they are going to send it to you?  They are very open about also building a cloud mining operation.  Do you really think they are going to give you machines first and then themselves?  Given that they have no contractual delivery date with you can deliver whenever they feel like it, or not at all?

It isn't like this company came along and said they know how preorders have gone in the past and they wanted to do it different, and then did things different.  This preorder has gone so far exactly like every other proerder ever, and we all know how those turned out for customers.  So my question to you is, given that they have done things exactly the same, why do you think this will somehow turn out different for customers?

Let me try to answer your questions as well as involve some of your replies in the threads that followed.

I'm not sure I follow your analogy. We have went from a 5Mh/s miner to 50Mh/s miner. A few extras were pulled, which would be analogous to bells and whistles in a car, and replaced with a lot more H.P.

Where did I say this is going to turn out well (lately). Maybe in the beginning of the whole thing. I've clearly stated multiple times that I am concerned about what is to come. Have you been reading the thread lately? What I have stated lately is to back off the personal attacks and lets just stick to the facts. It is much more reasonable to read what Retro writes (and admirably spent time collecting, thinking up ,etc.) without all the personal attacks on Fiaz. I'm not saying to not say someone lied, but when you mix facts with subjective derogatory name calling, it hurts the state of the online community here. It serves to disenchant and break down. IT becomes like a group mentality and everyone is pulled down to another level. Let the facts speak to that.

Regarding do I think they will send it to me and not mine. I most certainly do. I'm not sure if you are projecting what you would do, but when a business tells me they are not going to use my device before shipping it AND that they are not getting in the mining industry, I take that at face value. Now, if there were lots of lies along the way, I will re-asses, but thus far the question is "Will they deliver on time." and you are stating that due to greed, they will mine. How could you possibly know, especially when they most clearly stated they are not getting involved with mining on numerous occasions. Again, have you been reading the thread and their updates? Remember that Dexcel is doing the chip work out of India, they are a large company and they risk a lot should they get involved with something that seems illegal to me. Alpha Tech is more the brains of the operation in England. Units will ship from India. Dexcel would have to be actively involved in this operation and if anything like what you are suggesting were to happen, I would hope we could attack it legally. If not, then there is no sense in being involved in the future. Sort of like crowd-funding with little to no rewards.

By doing things exactly the same, I think you are confusing corruptness with things (maybe) beyond their control. This is the unknown. I agree with Retro and Vesper about a lot of the writing on the wall, but we still have 4 weeks and there is not need to pay right now, not for 2 weeks after the payment processor is up. And if they don't have something good to show me at that time, I probably don't pay and seek to remedy the "deposit situation" which seems not to follow the law. I can't at this point in time say that we are not getting our miners.

In your reply to diego2000 you state "Put another way, say YOU had a couple hundred 250Mh/s miners right now.  Would you really head down to Fed Ex tomorrow and ship them off, or would you wait a while, make some money, and THEN sell them?  All due respect, I think it is very naive to think they would leave all that money on the table." This sounds like something you would do and you are projecting it onto others. I would ship them off because I honor my word. Life is not about making as much money as I can. We reap what we sow. I'm not sure how you can judge AT when you are basically saying you would do something that you are accusing them of, because, well, it is the "natural" thing to do.

Maybe they are getting into this business to use it as a funder for mining, but that is disingenuous and me myself would not do that. If I wanted to get into mining and to sell units I would make that point clear, at least when the time arose. I think KNC actually did something like this (got into mining without explicitly saying so at first). Your posts seem really to just focus on corrupt behavior, and I'm not saying that isn't happening, but I am not going to assume the worst when they have said otherwise regarding mining themselves. But yes, a lot of questions need answering and I hope Retro can collect the good ones and we can post it over on their forum.

This thread has gone from fact collections, to name calling and now assumptions on borderline illegal activity. I won't take part in that. That may be the case, but I am not going to get pulled into darkness and projections and fear. However, I will not be ignorant considering all that has transpired, but as I said before, I don't think we are exactly behind schedule though we are in a critical spot (and we need those before mentioned questions answered to know - and yes, it doesn't look great.). A powerful and factual update (with physical evidence) is what is needed. Let's see what happens the next few days and weeks. We don't really have a choice in the matter and perhaps things change. If I'm wrong so be it, but through this, as tough as it may get I will be a human being the best that I can.

Its about sharing