Computer Scientists Prove God Exists

[Rassah]

Death is not bad.  If the entire planet exploded tomorrow, I wouldn't be mad at god, I would be in heaven, quite thankful.

Seriously, why not save yourself from all the waiting and suffering, and just stop eating and drinking, s you can ascend as soon as possible? It shouldn't take more than 3 days. Or you can use that same method to prove that you are god, by forcing yourself to continue to exist without food or water. It can't be much harder than making your car drive on empty by sheel will, and damage from lack of water isn't worse than damage from cancer that you cured. Just stop eating and drinking, and quantum cure yourself every few days, and the worst that will happen is you will ascent to the 5th dimension really quick.

Or do you not actually have any of these powers you claim you do?

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[BitChick]

But He does not murder us. I suppose you could say that the fact that there is a Hell and that we choose to go there is God murdering us?

I'm more worried about your belief in hell than anything else.

We all should be worried about Hell.

[BitChick]

Why don't you pray for amputees?

It is not that God could not just grow a leg or arm from nowhere if He so chose to do that. It seems God intervenes more when the person's life could be lost.  Perhaps He has more for them to accomplish on this earth? 

What if someone has lost a liver? That is kind of like a "limb." And without it, a person will die within a matter of days. How come there are no records of any humans ever regrowing or restoring any lost body parts, and why is that more "unnatural" than cancer cells and tumors just "disappearing."

Miracles are a complicated thing.  I was just trying to point out that by my observation of God doing miracles that I have seen and heard about, He appears to use the natural things as much as possible:  Doctors if they are available etc.  Could God just grow a limb from nothing? Personally I believe He can do all things.  He could grow a liver too.  But this is more a discussion of why and when God chooses to do miracles which is really beyond me.  There are some things that I don't understand myself, and miracles are one of them for sure!

[Rassah]

Simple logic. Assume that in imagination land everything is possible. Then it is very easy to demonstrate, that you cannot imagine the universe guided by physical laws alone, which would give birth to you

What if I can?

You can't have both - yourself sporadically emerging as product of physical laws and yourself designing those laws to begin with, it leads to contradiction.

But you can have yourself sporadically emerging as a product of physical laws, if you were not the one who designed those laws to begin with, and if those laws simply existed as a natural part of our universe.

[BitChick]

But as a mom I know that the shots will actually keep her from becoming sick later and encountering a disease that could harm her.

Why would you do something so cruel as interfere with God's plan to possibly try to send your children to heaven sooner???

Ahh.  I have actually gotten into some heated discussions with other Christians about this.  Many Christians have this idea of an "age of accountability."  That concept is nowhere in scripture but they think that there is an age in which we are accountable and before that we are not and it is like a free pass to heaven.  My logic was if that is true we should not cry if a baby dies but rejoice.  We should be the most pro-choice people on earth because all the babies go straight to heaven.

But of course I do not believe that.  It goes back to the discussion we have had on other threads.  I believe everyone will get a chance to accept or reject Jesus.  If not on this earth, in Sheol (which the Bible talks about in many places) and babies would go there as well.

I believe that we each have a plan on this earth that God has for us.  If we accept His plan there are great things to accomplish for good in this world.  I would not want to lose a child, not just because of the pain of missing him/her, but because the child would miss out on more opportunities to do great things.  But God's timing in our death and our life is beyond our understanding.

[Rassah]

Mathematical proof of boundary of a boundary = 0, and the sameness-in-difference principle, lead us to understand that we are fundamentally inseparable from the rest of the Real Universe.

Can you explain this, using normal every-day words? Because this never made any sense, and thus never really did anything other than confuse people, and very likely make them ignore whatever you were saying out of fear of sounding stupid, or out of assumptions that you are as weird as dank with his random definitions.

[Rassah]

Why don't you pray for amputees?

It is not that God could not just grow a leg or arm from nowhere if He so chose to do that. It seems God intervenes more when the person's life could be lost.  Perhaps He has more for them to accomplish on this earth? 

What if someone has lost a liver? That is kind of like a "limb." And without it, a person will die within a matter of days. How come there are no records of any humans ever regrowing or restoring any lost body parts, and why is that more "unnatural" than cancer cells and tumors just "disappearing."

Miracles are a complicated thing.  I was just trying to point out that by my observation of God doing miracles that I have seen and heard about, He appears to use the natural things as much as possible:  Doctors if they are available etc.  Could God just grow a limb from nothing? Personally I believe He can do all things.  He could grow a liver too.  But this is more a discussion of why and when God chooses to do miracles which is really beyond me.  There are some things that I don't understand myself, and miracles are one of them for sure!

But so far, by your own admission, god has only done mirracles that can occur in nature. I.e. he only did things that can happen naturally, anyway. So how can we be sure that it was god who did those things, and that they didn't just happen naturally?

[interlagos]

Simple logic. Assume that in imagination land everything is possible. Then it is very easy to demonstrate, that you cannot imagine the universe guided by physical laws alone, which would give birth to you

What if I can?

Then what you get is "God" equals "You"

You can't have both - yourself sporadically emerging as product of physical laws and yourself designing those laws to begin with, it leads to contradiction.

But you can have yourself sporadically emerging as a product of physical laws, if you were not the one who designed those laws to begin with, and if those laws simply existed as a natural part of our universe.

I would still be the one, who designed the one, ... , who designed the one, who created those laws.
In my imagination I am the root to everything. You can't exclude "yourself" from "your" imagination.

[Rassah]

But as a mom I know that the shots will actually keep her from becoming sick later and encountering a disease that could harm her.

Why would you do something so cruel as interfere with God's plan to possibly try to send your children to heaven sooner???

Ahh.  I have actually gotten into some heated discussions with other Christians about this.  Many Christians have this idea of an "age of accountability."  That concept is nowhere in scripture but they think that there is an age in which we are accountable and before that we are not and it is like a free pass to heaven.  My logic was if that is true we should not cry if a baby dies but rejoice.  We should be the most pro-choice people on earth because all the babies go straight to heaven.

But of course I do not believe that.  It goes back to the discussion we have had on other threads.  I believe everyone will get a chance to accept or reject Jesus.  If not on this earth, in Sheol (which the Bible talks about in many places) and babies would go there as well.

I believe that we each have a plan on this earth that God has for us.  If we accept His plan there are great things to accomplish for good in this world.  I would not want to lose a child, not just because of the pain of missing him/her, but because the child would miss out on more opportunities to do great things.  But God's timing in our death and our life is beyond our understanding.

Aaaaaaalll of that still doesn't explain why you would want to interfere with god's plan should god want to take your children to heaven. Do you think your children will go to hell or somewhere else if you didn't give them vaccines, and they were to die before they had the chance to suffer through years of life on earth?

[Rassah]

Simple logic. Assume that in imagination land everything is possible. Then it is very easy to demonstrate, that you cannot imagine the universe guided by physical laws alone, which would give birth to you

What if I can?

Then what you get is "God" equals "You"

Not at all. It just means that I, like everyone else on this planet, can imagine things as I believe they have happened, based on things I know from experience and evidence, but none of my imaginations have any effect on the physical world. Are you redifining the word "god" to mean "anyone who can imagine something?" Then sure, we're all gods, but that's not the god of any religion.

[Rassah]

Without free-will though it just would not be the same.  Let's say you had a magic ring and that when you put that ring on a girls finger she fell deeply in love with you and thought you were the most amazing man in the world and worshiped the ground you walked on.  Let's say you fell deeply in love with her but there was something in the back of your mind that made you wonder if she really loved you back or not. Wouldn't you want to take of the ring and really see if she loved you because of her own choice or not?  You would not want her to be forced to love you would you?  God feels the same way about us.  He wants to know if we really love Him.

You are using a false comparison, because we are not omniscient. The correct comparison would be thus:

Let's say you had a magic ring and that when you put that ring on a girls finger she fell deeply in love with you and thought you were the most amazing man in the world and worshiped the ground you walked on. Lets also say that you knew exactly whether a girl trully loved you or not, and whether she would love you in the future.  Let's say you fell deeply in love with her and, being an omniscient, all powerful god, you also knew if she really loved you back or not regardless of whether or not she was wearing the ring that made her love you. Wouldn't you want to take off the ring and let her love you, or not love you, as you already know she trully does?  Wouldn't you want her to be forced to love you if you knew that she doesn't actually love you, and that her not loving you would result in you having to torture her for the rest of existence?

I don't know, if I was the girl in this situation, I would take the ring. Unless you believe that god is not all powerful (I seem to remember that when Adam realized what he did, he actually hid from god in the bushes)

[interlagos]

Simple logic. Assume that in imagination land everything is possible. Then it is very easy to demonstrate, that you cannot imagine the universe guided by physical laws alone, which would give birth to you

What if I can?

Then what you get is "God" equals "You"

Not at all. It just means that I, like everyone else on this planet, can imagine things as I believe they have happened, based on things I know from experience and evidence, but none of my imaginations have any effect on the physical world. Are you redifining the word "god" to mean "anyone who can imagine something?" Then sure, we're all gods, but that's not the god of any religion.

What I am saying is this. Let's define God as the creator of the Universe and let's assume that your imagination is an unbiased pure nothingness, that everything comes out from. Then no matter what Universe you create in your imagination, which also has you in it, what you get is "God" equals "You".

Don't you agree that this Universe has you in it? How did you get here?

[Rassah]

Simple logic. Assume that in imagination land everything is possible. Then it is very easy to demonstrate, that you cannot imagine the universe guided by physical laws alone, which would give birth to you

What if I can?

Then what you get is "God" equals "You"

Not at all. It just means that I, like everyone else on this planet, can imagine things as I believe they have happened, based on things I know from experience and evidence, but none of my imaginations have any effect on the physical world. Are you redifining the word "god" to mean "anyone who can imagine something?" Then sure, we're all gods, but that's not the god of any religion.

What I am saying is this. Let's define God as the creator of the Universe and let's assume that your imagination is an unbiased pure nothingness, that everything comes out from. Then no matter what Universe you create in your imagination, which also has you in it, what you get is "God" equals "You".

Don't you agree that this Universe has you in it? How did you get here?

I have a better idea. Let's define god as the creation of some stoned sheep herders from millena ago, and let's assume your imagination is biased by your life experiences, where everything you imagine is an amalgamation of things you have seen, heard, or read about. Then, no matter what Universe you create in your imagination, which also has you in it, is just a collection of the things you have experienced before, rearranged in some way that you are biased toward, or that you prefer.

Yes I agree that this universe has me in it. I was born from my parents.

[NewLiberty]

Well you can refine then that "in imagination land everything that is logical is possible", then what you will arrive at is that your model of the universe is illogical. Isn't that sufficient enough?

Is this how you would like to refine your premise?  That all gods are bound by a greater god "logic" and thus not all-powerful?
We can start over with that if you like.

[superresistant]

The universe is a chaos of infinite probabilities.

Only the most probable and logic universe emerge from all the patterns.

Every consciousness act as an observer of the universe.

There is no universe without an observer.

The sum of all observers make the world what it is.

If most of observers believe in the existence of god, it should make god exist.

The only limit is that you cannot make or do something that you believe is impossible.

The only unknown for me is what happen when 2 consciousness observe at the same time with opposite believes ?

Some people believe in god, some don't. Is there stronger consciousness than others ? Are we actually fighting, right now, for god to exist or not ?

MINDFUCK

[interlagos]

Simple logic. Assume that in imagination land everything is possible. Then it is very easy to demonstrate, that you cannot imagine the universe guided by physical laws alone, which would give birth to you

What if I can?

Then what you get is "God" equals "You"

Not at all. It just means that I, like everyone else on this planet, can imagine things as I believe they have happened, based on things I know from experience and evidence, but none of my imaginations have any effect on the physical world. Are you redifining the word "god" to mean "anyone who can imagine something?" Then sure, we're all gods, but that's not the god of any religion.

What I am saying is this. Let's define God as the creator of the Universe and let's assume that your imagination is an unbiased pure nothingness, that everything comes out from. Then no matter what Universe you create in your imagination, which also has you in it, what you get is "God" equals "You".

Don't you agree that this Universe has you in it? How did you get here?

I have a better idea. Let's define god as the creation of some stoned sheep herders from millena ago, and let's assume your imagination is biased by your life experiences, where everything you imagine is an amalgamation of things you have seen, heard, or read about. Then, no matter what Universe you create in your imagination, which also has you in it, is just a collection of the things you have experienced before, rearranged in some way that you are biased toward, or that you prefer.

I'm not sure, that having sheep herders as a prerequisite to creation is a scientific way to approach things, especially in the realm of mathematics. This thread is about finding God in logic and I just demonstrated that no matter how you spin it, it is always there.

Yes I agree that this universe has me in it. I was born from my parents.

It doesn't explain how you got here at all. Your parents became yours only after the fact. A year before your birth there was no such concept as "your parents", because all people were equally relevant to you at that point. And if they were all equal, then why did you emerge at all? What triggered that in the Universe?

The only logical conclusion is that you existed at least as a concept, as an idea, before your physical birth.
And if you take that a few steps further you will understand that you are an idea onto itself, the zero point, which transcends even time itself.

[kokjo]

Based on the premise that Gödel's axioms(the stuff proves rely on) is true the conclusions(god exists) is also true. But it's still upto oneself to decide if the axioms are true or not.

Gödel is indeed mindbending, confusing, and very scary stuff.

[Rassah]

Every consciousness act as an observer of the universe.

There is no universe without an observer.

The sum of all observers make the world what it is.

If most of observers believe in the existence of god, it should make god exist.

Wait, does this mean that when most observers believed the earth was flat, we were on a disk, and it was turtles all the way down?

[BitChick]

But He does not murder us. I suppose you could say that the fact that there is a Hell and that we choose to go there is God murdering us?

I'm more worried about your belief in hell than anything else.

We all should be worried about Hell.

The 'Hell' you speak of is a fabrication of the Catholic church. It's wrong, manipulative and you need to get your facts right before throwing it around at people.

The Bible uses primarily 2 words in relation to death, 'she'ohl' in Hebrew, and 'hai'des' in Greek. These words are often substituted for the word 'hell' in some bible translations, primarily Catholic ones. Cross referencing scriptures indicates that these terms 'she'ohl' and 'hai'des' are more likely references to the common grave of mankind, a symbolic reference to where all the dead are. No reference to the common catholic teaching of hell fire or torment, but a figurative location where most of mankind sleep in death (peacefully).

Perhaps you mistook it for the reference in the Bible to Gehenna? Gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem in which dead bodies unworthy of burial were thrown, as well as common garbage which was constantly on fire to avoid disease etc. Jesus used Gehenna to illustrate eternal destruction for people who would not come back from death. No constant torment or hell fire.

The only legitimate use of the word should be in reference to hell'ing potatoes, i.e. to bury them, or cover them up.

And this I agree with you in part.  "Hell" is overused for sure.  The English translators thought they were doing us a service by translating Sheol, Hades into Hell and it causes problems.  I have gone on tirades about the problem this causes on some of my other posts on different threads.  So I totally get that.

That said, eternal damnation is something to be concerned about regardless and it is not a fabrication. 

[RodeoX]

Hey I just imagined that I am God! That should be proof enough for you all to bow down and worship me, right?
This guy needs to use air-quotes around the word scientist when he calls himself a computer "scientist".