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Author Topic: GBTC Bitcoin Investment Trust Observer  (Read 262325 times)
JorgeStolfi
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December 12, 2014, 05:50:28 AM
 #941


Why do you think that Barry created SMBIT, or the Winkles want to create COIN?  Hint: if one has 100'000 coins, how could one sell them without crashing the price?
You think the winklevoss twins are starting an ETF to be able to dump their 110,000 BTC?
[ ... ]  that 110,000 BTC is used as needed liquidity to start the fund. [ ... ] they will get to keep ALL of their Bitcoins too.

Well, at least one of us does not understand how funds work. 

As investors come buy COIN fund shares, the COIN fund will have to buy the corresponding BTC somewhere.  The Winkles at some point will sell their 110'000 BTC to the fund.  (That is what "provide liquidity for" means).  They will own the fund, and the fund will own those BTC and maybe some more; but the fund will also owe to its investors the dollar equivalent of those bitcoins (minus a few % in fees).  So the net assets of the fund will be just those fees.

Simplifying the equations: the Winkes will sell their BTC to the fund investors, for the current market price plus a few % in fees.  After that, they will only get a few % of whatever investors invest in the fund.

Quote
Imagine the number of massive buys once this fund launches.  Every mutual fund in the world will be able to legally buy BTC at that point.  [...] Next year $10,000 per Bitcoin will be considered cheap

Why would they want to do that?  Bitcoin will still be a risky investment, with no backing assets and paying no dividends, whose value is entirely dependent on the expectation of future expectations of investors.

Right now, no one with money wants to buy those bitcoins that are for sale at 360$.  If the Winkles and Silberts and Drapers really believed that bitcoin had a 10% chance of being 10'000$ next year, they would buy every coin they could, until the price reached 1000$.  They are not optimistic; they just want others to be optimistic -- and buy their bitcoins.

If the COIN fund buys a million bitcoins from current holders at 10'000 $/BTC, that would mean 10 billion dollars will go from the pockets of fund investors to the pocekts of current holders.   But when are the investors getting back their 10 billion dollars, and from where?

That is the difference between investing 10 billion in bitcoin (whether bare, or wrapped in the glittering tinfoil of a fund) and investing 10 billion in stocks.  In the latter case the investors become owners of 10 billion worth in factories and such, which will create many more billions of new wealth.  In the case of bitcoins, the 10 billion will just pay for caviar and palaces and lamborghinis for the old holders; no wealth will be created, only wasted in luxury consumption.  Isn't something wrong with that picture?

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Cassandra_PR
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December 12, 2014, 06:06:10 AM
 #942

...In the case of bitcoins, the 10 billion will just pay for caviar and palaces and lamborghinis for the old holders; no wealth will be created, only wasted in luxury consumption.  Isn't something wrong with that picture?

Well, people paying $10,000/BTC would create confidence and buyer demand, so other people will want to pay more than $10,000 so's not to miss out on this disruptive technology black swan that's about to reach the tipping point because singularity paradigm shift.  
It's all very scientific and dangerous, but we're the on the bleeding edge of ...  Don't worry so much!
Vlad2Vlad
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December 12, 2014, 06:13:37 AM
 #943




Isn't something wrong with that picture?


Yes, it's a textbook [global] wealth redistribution scheme [which I outlined last year].

Now you're finally starting to understand and next year you will believe but it will be too late to gain from the madness.

iXcoin - Welcome to the F U T U R E!
jl2012 (OP)
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December 12, 2014, 08:46:07 AM
 #944

Please go to the wall observer for off topic discussion

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JorgeStolfi
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December 12, 2014, 09:04:58 AM
 #945

@jl2012: Sorry about the off-topic posts; I deleted some, feel free to delete more if you think that they don't belong here.

To return to the topic: OTC stands for "over the counter" which means stock traded by a dealer network instead of a regular stock exchange, like NYSE or NASDAQ.

The way SMBIT shares will be traded (so it is claimed) is not "OTC" but on an exchange-like company called (confusingly) OTCMarkets, specifically on a section that they call "OTCQX". 

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nightengale
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December 12, 2014, 03:44:02 PM
 #946

596 XBT bought yesterday

Nice to see investors keep buying, even after the auction.

Yes, a very good sign Smiley

Hoping we will see the resumption of SM's larger volume buying patterns now that we're in-between auctions. Will also be glad once all of the SR coins have been sold off.
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December 13, 2014, 06:59:39 PM
 #947

Will also be glad once all of the SR coins have been sold off.

Me too. Then this stone hanging over us is gone.
JorgeStolfi
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December 13, 2014, 07:48:26 PM
 #948

Will also be glad once all of the SR coins have been sold off.
Me too. Then this stone hanging over us is gone.
There may be other auctions for other piles of coins seized in other arrests. And sometime after September 2015 the 220'000 coins salvaged from MtGOX will be returned to the former clients. 

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BitAddict
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December 13, 2014, 10:09:16 PM
 #949

Will also be glad once all of the SR coins have been sold off.
Me too. Then this stone hanging over us is gone.
There may be other auctions for other piles of coins seized in other arrests. And sometime after September 2015 the 220'000 coins salvaged from MtGOX will be returned to the former clients.  

Plus another 30k seized coins will be auctioned in Australia.
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December 16, 2014, 09:41:24 PM
 #950

Can you point to specifically where you're able to find your numbers on the bitcointrust website?
wachtwoord
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December 16, 2014, 11:07:59 PM
 #951

Will also be glad once all of the SR coins have been sold off.
Me too. Then this stone hanging over us is gone.
There may be other auctions for other piles of coins seized in other arrests. And sometime after September 2015 the 220'000 coins salvaged from MtGOX will be returned to the former clients. 

Those have long been liquidated I would say.
Keyser Soze
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December 16, 2014, 11:22:50 PM
 #952

There may be other auctions for other piles of coins seized in other arrests. And sometime after September 2015 the 220'000 coins salvaged from MtGOX will be returned to the former clients. 

Those have long been liquidated I would say.

Not as of the latest update

As a result, the amount of BTC managed by the bankruptcy estate as of November 21, 2014 is 202,149.2273849BTC.
JorgeStolfi
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December 17, 2014, 12:15:34 AM
 #953

Can you point to specifically where you're able to find your numbers on the bitcointrust website?
On the homepage http://www.bitcointrust.co/  Just scroll down a few screenfuls until the chart of BTC price.
The Net Assets amount is at the bottom left of the chart.
Other quantities tabulated here are computed as described on page 1 of this thread.
I cannot see a date on that page, but the chart goes to Dec/10.

There is a fact sheet
http://bitcointrust.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Fact-Sheet_Dec.pdf
but it has no extra data that I can see, and it is updated only monthly it seems.

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gog1
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December 17, 2014, 03:13:08 AM
 #954

if my math is right, I think there's a selling of approx $250k worth of BTC (a few hundreds at prevailing prices)
jl2012 (OP)
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December 17, 2014, 07:17:22 AM
 #955

if my math is right, I think there's a selling of approx $250k worth of BTC (a few hundreds at prevailing prices)

No, no real change since last update

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jl2012 (OP)
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December 30, 2014, 11:42:27 AM
 #956

Slight increase since last update

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nightengale
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December 30, 2014, 12:46:20 PM
 #957

At least participants are not wantonly dumping with recent sell-off, yet anyway. Grrr.
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December 30, 2014, 12:56:07 PM
Last edit: December 30, 2014, 01:28:28 PM by BitAddict
 #958

At least participants are not wantonly dumping with recent sell-off, yet anyway. Grrr.

Pray for these guys not dumping any time soon before a big rally. If they do, massive selloff and loss of confidence in bitcoin will begin.

Most of them are longterm investors, and probably know they could be down for a while. So I guess they won't panic for a few years, though.
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December 30, 2014, 01:14:30 PM
 #959

At least participants are not wantonly dumping with recent sell-off, yet anyway. Grrr.

Pray for these guys not dumping any time soon before a big rally. If they do, massive selloff and lose of confidence in bitcoin will begin.

Hm, in order for any hope of a new rally weak hands must sell. There is no other way around. The question is what is the price at which early adopters will sell (like 30k we saw at 275 on bitstamp).



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jamesg
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December 30, 2014, 01:15:26 PM
 #960

Pray for these guys not dumping any time soon before a big rally.

According to the latest newsletter, nobody can sell from the BIT due to issues with the SEC.
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