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lolchina
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May 08, 2018, 01:18:13 PM |
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If bitmain sell this device something must happen in equihash.
I agree. Why should they sell those ASICs, if they could keep on mining with all that hashing power instead? I guess they have had some chat with some equihash devs and something will happen there. Maybe a fork for most important coins is comitted long ago without smaller miners knowing? Is zcash going to be new BTC (since ZEC is based on BTC) with the z-ability? Really uncertain here, what exactly is happening, but I am sure several people behind the scenes know (prob. zokoo is one of them) and are acting a role. Or they just got paid off by bitmain not to act on it,zokoo gets 20% from every minned block so he doesnt really need to care about it.As for how others will fight them bitcoinZ already came out with a suggestion https://github.com/btcz/bitcoinz/issues/38 |
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"I'm sure that in 20 years there will either be very large transaction volume or no volume." -- Satoshi
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coinwatch
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May 08, 2018, 01:26:00 PM |
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So why hasn't this sold out yet?
They must have a lot available.
I am guessing that not being able to buy more then one per customer miight have so affect on it,other reason is that people are still carefull seing how those who ordered cryptonight asics ended with 12k$ worth paper weight/room heather.Everyone is waiting to see if there will be fork or not-eth asics sold out when vitalik said that there wont be fork Nobody lost $12K. The miners were repriced when Monero announced the intent to change algos, and Bitmain issued refunds to equal the adjusted prices. Don't get fooled by Bitmain propaganda. They took only BCH as payment for the X3 Batch 1. With shipping and PSU it cost 13,5BCH. Refunds only offered in USD. Payout 2 months. 13,5BCH is worth now $21,600 (@$1600/BCH). Who knows where it's going to be in 2 months. Refund is only $9000, people are losing $12K or even more. It's not propaganda, it's math. Your bill was in USD so your refund is too. If BCH had dropped in value and the reverse was the case, people would complain then too. That sucks but that's the nature of dealing with any form of currency or investment exchange. Bitmain didn't make that decision on the fly, that is always their policy. If BCH drops below the price at time of sale by the time they issue refunds, they will still have to honor the cash value. So no, nobody lost $12K. Every legitimate business is expected to issue refund in the same form of payment than what received the money in. If they exclusively accept BCH then they should refund in BCH and not in USD wire transfer delayed for 2 months. |
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greyday
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May 08, 2018, 01:28:32 PM
Last edit: May 08, 2018, 01:46:30 PM by greyday |
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BITMAIN IS NOT YOUR FRIEND
ACTUALLY, PRETTY MUCH ANY COMPANY YOU BUY THINGS FROM IS NOT YOUR FRIEND
FRIENDS BRING PIZZA
There is a big difference in this case. Normally, a producer of something (hardware) is providing a component in the value chain. They try and make a better product so you will buy it over their competitors alternatives. In this case, Bitmain is mining themselves and they are your direct competitor. They have economic interest in destroying your economy and pushing you out of the "market". They are doing this on the grandest of scales and it's actually happening just in front of us. For a healthy market to work, there have to be more than one manufacturer (eg. Intel, AMD, Nvidia). Also, the manufacturers can not be your competitors. As a thought experiment: Extrapolate what would happen if Intel, AMD and Nvidia took their respective resources and went all in on POW mining. Others could only buy yesteryears hardware in the shops when these companies sought fit. You could extend this for all forms of professional computing for that matter (not just stupid mining). Would there be any market for long ? Who would be in power of those blockchain projects after a while ? Who is in power of these companies? How would that affect the philosophy of crypto to liberate us from central control over everything ? It was a joke. I still don't have pizza. Though for the record, there is no overall philosophy for crypto. There are certainly specific coins with guiding philosophies like those, but ultimately most of them want to succeed and profit (and it's no coincidence that a lot of the successful ones happen to value decentralization). And honestly I don't think centralization and the market for coins are as intrinsically intertwined as all that. The coins have value because people are buying them and selling them; most of the people doing that either don't know or don't care about decentralization, they just want profit. And Bitmain do not have interest in pushing their customers out of the market; if they did, they wouldn't bother selling their hardware (or would only do indirect and bulk sales, like FPGA producers do). At best pushing home miners out of the market would end up being coincidental or practical. I'm with you idealogically, but the market is supply and demand. And not that I don't believe Bitmain does any mining before selling inventory, or that they own or supply a farm, but I hear people state that all the time yet have seen no proof of them running all their machines before selling them; somehow the difficulty and earning drops quickly (like in hours to days) when the miners reach the customers, which wouldn't make sense if Bitmain mined with all of them before selling. So while I have no doubt they do some, they clearly don't run all their machines until they sell them off like some people claim. As for personal computing and all tech, that actually is what happens. The rnd cycle requires it; unless a direct competitor can beat you to market with the next big thing, you keep selling the older tech until you've recouped enough to make putting the next model out make sense. I live in Portland, your mind would melt if you knew the kinds or prototypes Intel has up and running. Seriously. We're both typing on Speak and Spells in comparison, and that's just what I have seen from friends, I can't imagine what kinds of top secret stuff they have going on... Anyway, my original point, if I had one since I was just making fun of people taking this way too seriously, is that no business wants to be your friend, they all want to profit. I know this. I run one. It doesn't mean many businesses don't care about their customers. But they, again, do not bring me pizza.  |
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greyday
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May 08, 2018, 01:44:18 PM |
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(cleaned up for brevity)
Every legitimate business is expected to issue refund in the same form of payment than what received the money in. If they exclusively accept BCH then they should refund in BCH and not in USD wire transfer delayed for 2 months.
Is that your expectation? Some general one? My expectation of a business is to act in exactly the manner they lay out. In reality, people who paid $12K paid $12K. Bitmain technically didn't have to refund them at all. That would have been bad business, but it would have also been a completely legitimate decision to make. The nature of how they refund is spelled out pretty specifically, as is the fact that you are invoiced in one currency, and pay in another. Bitmain has always operated this way, at least in the time I've been a customer; it's also why, if a coin is dropping, you can wait to place your order and end up spending fewer of those coins, since the invoices/original product prices are based in fiat currency (though Bitmain seems to update them a bit more frequently these days). This is how currency, and expenditures, work. No judgment in that statement, it just is. Buying, holding, selling, and spending various currencies, crypto or otherwise, is all a combination of investment and risk. If you are into crypto as an investment, then don't spend it, spend fiat (which is what I generally do, I buy or replace the amount for a purchase if I am holding the coin). If they are issuing the refund in USD in a wire transfer when someone didn't pay that way, that is a bit annoying, though, I'll definitely give you that, and it certainly doesn't help their customer relations or image. But again, unless there was some different form of agreement at time of purchase, they are issuing a partial refund based on their on re-valuation of a product that the buyer already agreed to pay the original sum for. Not saying they are heroes for it by any means, they're a business, and like others this was a decision that serves them best (by hopefully placating loyal customers), but that's the reason many of us didn't buy the first batch: we weren't willing to spent $12k on a miner algos might fork away from. Some people took that risk. The fact that they are getting anything back at all is pretty cool IMO, since if Bitmain were the evil overlords people on this board make them out to be, they likely wouldn't have bothered... |
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HansHagberg
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May 08, 2018, 02:23:38 PM |
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..... I'm with you idealogically, but the market is supply and demand. And not that I don't believe Bitmain does any mining before selling inventory, or that they own or supply a farm, but I hear people state that all the time yet have seen no proof of them running all their machines before selling them; somehow the difficulty and earning drops quickly (like in hours to days) when the miners reach the customers, which wouldn't make sense if Bitmain mined with all of them before selling. So while I have no doubt they do some, they clearly don't run all their machines until they sell them off like some people claim. ..... The recent Cryptonight drama is as good evidence anyone could hope for, me thinks. One can see a huge addition of hashrate for Monero at the end of 2017. Sometime in the following months, the Monero core team got indications there were ASICs in the wild. There was a short debate and countermeasures were announced. After fork announcement, Bitmain and at least 3 others immediately started selling ASICs. After fork, much more than half the hashrate of Monero hashrate disappeared and never came back. Today, only ASICs are mining old Cryptonight so we can see exactly how much it was. This chain of events has it all really. Secret mining starting at a detectable time, Bitmain busted by the Monero project, Bitmain selling doorstoppers when they can't use them anymore, pretty exact figures of the size of the operation etc. But yeah... There are too many crypto currencies anyway. Maybe it's best that most of them died away. Since none is used for anything yet, it wont matter much. May as well be those who are predated by Bitmain or other big centralized entities. |
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madmartyk
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Yes I am a pirate, 300 years too late!
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May 08, 2018, 02:26:41 PM |
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I have some friends who are gamers, they welcome ASICs to all algos. They hate miners because they have driven up the prices of GPUs. I bought 3 of these, they will either mine (if there is profit to be made) or get flipped. Same with the E3s I have (got in on the $800 price.)
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greyday
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May 08, 2018, 02:32:32 PM |
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..... I'm with you idealogically, but the market is supply and demand. And not that I don't believe Bitmain does any mining before selling inventory, or that they own or supply a farm, but I hear people state that all the time yet have seen no proof of them running all their machines before selling them; somehow the difficulty and earning drops quickly (like in hours to days) when the miners reach the customers, which wouldn't make sense if Bitmain mined with all of them before selling. So while I have no doubt they do some, they clearly don't run all their machines until they sell them off like some people claim. ..... The recent Cryptonight drama is as good evidence anyone could hope for, me thinks. One can see a huge addition of hashrate for Monero at the end of 2017. Sometime in the following months, the Monero core team got indications there were ASICs in the wild. There was a short debate and countermeasures were announced. After fork announcement, Bitmain and at least 3 others immediately started selling ASICs. After fork, much more than half the hashrate of Monero hashrate disappeared and never came back. Today, only ASICs are mining old Cryptonight so we can see exactly how much it was. This chain of events has it all really. Secret mining starting at a detectable time, Bitmain busted by the Monero project, Bitmain selling doorstoppers when they can't use them anymore, pretty exact figures of the size of the operation etc. But yeah... There are too many crypto currencies anyway. Maybe it's best that most of them died away. Since none is used for anything yet, it wont matter much. May as well be those who are predated by Bitmain or other big centralized entities. Agreed, but again, some vs. all is what I was trying to say. If they ran all or even most of the miners up until they sold them, you'd see drops during shipping, and the rate wouldn't fall so quickly after they are received. I again have no doubt they do SOME mining with them, they'd be fools not to.  |
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HansHagberg
Jr. Member
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May 08, 2018, 08:38:08 PM |
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Drops in hashrate during shipping was exactly what one could see for Cryptonight.
After fork, at first, hashrate was high for old cryptonight and way down for V7.
After a while, it went down on cryptonight, probably while hardware was changing hands. Later it went up to new record levels and also spread out to all remaining coins. It certainly looks as if the hardware was in use except for when in transit.
The Monero fork work was indeed an interesting study in Bitmain business tactics.
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Marvell2
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May 08, 2018, 08:56:23 PM |
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lol this is gona be fun to watch , grabs 🍿 |
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Iamtutut
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May 08, 2018, 09:19:17 PM |
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Shitmain doing a shitmain performance. Coins are forking (except Z-cash) or announcing a fork so they need to get rid of their bricks ASAP. As long as they have idiots buying, why would they stop ? For those you did not read this thread from the begining, it was supposed to be ONE Z9 per buyer. |
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fanatic26
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May 08, 2018, 10:11:26 PM |
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I cant tell if you guys are just completely clueless about how new products are brought to market or you have just fallen for the propaganda machine against bitmain.
Of course they were mining on them before selling them. YOU HAVE TO TEST PRODUCTS BEFORE YOU SELL THEM. This isnt secret mining, its called product testing.
ASICs are a good thing, despite what all of the greedy GPU miners will tell you. A machine like the Z9 lowers the cost of entry into the equihash altcoin market. You would spend $10k on a GPU rig that produces an equivalent amount of hashing power. You can now put a miner behind your couch, in your kitchen, wherever you want basically because it only uses 300 watts. No more special power supplies, no more buggy miner software crashing every few days. These things are so much better than GPU systems its not even funny.
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Stop buying industrial miners, running them at home, and then complaining about the noise.
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fanatic26
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May 08, 2018, 10:12:46 PM |
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What a depressingly scumbag move by the zcash people. guess its time to find another coin that actually promotes freedom of choice. |
Stop buying industrial miners, running them at home, and then complaining about the noise.
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whoismoses
Member
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May 08, 2018, 10:49:12 PM |
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Maybe I am a bit dense, but this confuses me.
"The Foundation is developing ASIC resistance as an option while simultaneously researching ASIC resistance"
So, what does this mean?
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Sandal_Hat
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May 08, 2018, 11:11:52 PM |
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wow if zcash forks too. I am surprised. Maybe a new asic manufacturer wont even sell asics. They will just develop it and use it to take over a gpu coin network. Only a small chance for this to occur though.
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Selling 100 dollar coupons (8units expire 11th June, 14 units expire 1st july) and 125 dollar coupon (2 unit exp 30th June). Selling at 20% of value
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xtraelv
Legendary
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Activity: 1274
Merit: 1924
฿ear ride on the rainbow slide
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May 09, 2018, 02:28:20 AM |
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I don't think I'll ever buy another bitmain product.
Poor quality control. 1 out of 5 miners I received had a serious issue on receipt.
They mucked me around over a wire transfer saying they never received it. $40 in bank fees later proved it to be a lie.
Asicboost, their backdoor and support for Bcash make them look dodgy.
My account details got hacked when their entire database got hacked and now I get calls from a scam company supposebly in the UK
(The details the scam company knows were only used on bitmain)
They wouldn't let me access my account without proof of identity - do I really want to give more info to a company that can't keep my data safe ?
Centralised control. Bitmain, Hashnest and Antpool have far too much control over the bitcoin network.
Innosilicon products might be dearer but are far superior in quality.
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madmartyk
Legendary
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Activity: 2674
Merit: 1030
Yes I am a pirate, 300 years too late!
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May 09, 2018, 02:41:49 AM |
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You know, out of all the Bitmain products I have had, I have never had a DOA miner, I have never had one crap out while using it.
All in all, I have been very happy with my miners. I have had worse luck with GPUs then Antminers.
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xtraelv
Legendary
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Activity: 1274
Merit: 1924
฿ear ride on the rainbow slide
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May 09, 2018, 02:48:19 AM |
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wow if zcash forks too. I am surprised. Maybe a new asic manufacturer wont even sell asics. They will just develop it and use it to take over a gpu coin network. Only a small chance for this to occur though.
Some asic companies now only make products for their own mining farms. https://news.bitcoin.com/bitfury-is-building-the-largest-bitcoin-mining-operation-in-north-america/ Bitfury almost exclusively make their Asics for their mining farms. |
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