Economic Devastation

[iamback]

CoinCube, I wonder if most readers will get your point. Of course long ago I realized that reputation is the antithesis of meritocracy, because for example you see what happens when you get an important reputation, then the jealous worms come after you...

You have so many delusions and misconceptions thrown as erroneous accusations; including the fact that I was and still am an athlete. And I have excellent social skills and the count of my friends approach the Dunbar limit.

You also have very poor logic skills. If I said that I am important to making a solution, it doesn't follow logically that solution must be centralizing. If one developer wrote BitTorrent, that doesn't mean BitTorrent is not P2P decentralization.

Good grief, you are really too stupid for me to waste my time on.

Btw, Elon Musk relies on the corruption of government subsidies.

Don't worry, nobody will notice you are gone.

[B.A.S.]

Don't worry, nobody will notice you are gone.

Just you and your soapbox my friend. Remember, it gets lonely at "the top," but you don't need me telling you that...

[iamback]

it gets lonely at "the top,"

It is a struggle to find loneliness in the Philippines. It took me a decade just to figure out how to have some peace and quiet and a little bit of privacy.

Intellectual peers are rare. Up here in the stratosphere the pickings getting thinner and the synergies even rarer. I count CoinCube as one of my friends. We aren't technological peers (yet, although he already exhibits some technological acumen, but I am not likely to go into the medical field), but we are intellectual peers in some areas of mutual interest.

I don't know what your big beef is with Armstrong quotes. I was driving some points that were synergistic with this thread topic. Also Armstrong is a key player in the moves towards global restructuring and a one-world reserve currency.

[l3552]

My second thought was a system of labor credits exchanged over a website. These could be used for things like babysitting as family is usually preferred and perhaps even the exchange of skills and teaching either in person or remotely via an online class model.

The goal of course is not to provide a service that cannot be replicated from strangers, but to develop something that adds value while simultaneously strengthening family bonds.
 
What interests me about your proposal is that your are essentially trying to solve the same problem on a much more ambitious scale worldwide rather then a single large family group.

We are all family in potency, aren't we? If not we are probably wrong willing to strengthen bonds and deliver Pareto efficiency tools to everybody else, heh.

Jokes aside, my scale isn't ambitious. I defended earlier that the main focus for such a tool is community economics, removing or lessening the stones repressing poor people demands and defending them from future economic devastation. It would valorize and advertize their skills and social bonds. It would free then from low credit, economically and on their head(self-steam).

The point is that today far more people have a smartphone and need for such a tool than a bank account and once communities got in touch and start to strengthen their bonds sharing reputations, main insurance nodes, this would spread like fire.

However, I would note that you are perhaps wrong in at least one area. You claim that such a system cannot be considered illegal. However, should such such a system gain traction it seems certain that the "violence monopolist" would quickly reach out to crush it via tax law.

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Four-Things-to-Know-About-Bartering-1

Although I have to capitulate with you, it is not totally out of equation.

First as you reward transactions on system there is no clear way to differentiate a private relationship like you giving me English lessons freely, from you doing the same out for personal gain.

Second, after the remove of commoditization from the system there is no efficient way to determine the betterment provoked by the relationship.

Third, as these low income communities have little or no use of the violence monopolist papers it would have to go further and violate principles of privacy and non-confiscation, against stronger souls and strengthened groups that start to see who are the people that profit from their destruction.

Forth, once the knowledge age kicks in and mass inflation shows up the above mentioned gonna climb up society squeezing out the devil.

[r0ach]

the count of my friends approach the Dunbar limit.

[CoinCube]

...
The world is now what it was made to be now and will change only by destructive innovation that rends the past paradigm obsolete. Having this in mind and trowing out any affections, anonymity and currency together are destructive in many ways.

The world without humans is just stuff. Money is the abstraction of human value. It is the projection of awareness into something in a way that awareness can be converted trough its projection into the awareness of greater goods. When money lose its "names" it works only alienation. In this, money can be a bridge between people or the pit.

=Sixth Round
A desires a box which is in possession of B.
A offers B to trade his box for a paper in which the violence monopolist vows to not let anyone trade but by that way, insured by his whip.
A get the box and B the paper because he do not want to be assaulted and because he knows that other people gonna have to accept it, increasing community total wealth and safety?
...
What is loosely proposed here is good and urgent. It is a non anonymous truly distributed ledger of non commoditian cryptocredit insured by real people for other real people which reputations are tracked as their certification clubs... AMEM

...
the main focus for such a tool is community economics, removing or lessening the stones repressing poor people demands and defending them from future economic devastation. It would valorize and advertize their skills and social bonds. It would free then from low credit, economically and on their head(self-steam).

The point is that today far more people have a smartphone and need for such a tool than a bank account and once communities got in touch and start to strengthen their bonds sharing reputations, main insurance nodes, this would spread like fire.

l3552 I like your idea. It is an alternative and ultimately synergistic approach. We live in an era where the rule of the violence monopolist aka government is growing increasingly tyrannical. The fundamental challenge is how to trade  without using the approved paper while also avoiding the increasingly dangerous whip.

iamback has proposed anonymous distributed cryptocurrency as a method for allowing individuals to connect and trade
across communities. The whip is avoided via cryptography and anonymity. It is certain that such a solution will eventually be declared illegal. It will be demonized and attacked technically while approved paper equivalents (centralized electronic currency) will be held up as alternatives. Its long term survival will depend on how well it weathers these attacks.

You are proposing small non-anonymous local systems that use reputation to allow individuals to connect and trade within a community. This will also likely be declared illegal. They will survive not by being hidden but by being small, hard to quantify, and unpopular to quash. Variant systems can exist in different local communities and one system could even be shut down entirely if enough external pressure was applied only to pop right back up (without much loss) as soon as the pressure abated.

Ultimately I see these as compatible and even synergistic approaches. I agree with your critiques of anonymity. However, for trade across distant communities without using "approved paper" it is probably impossible to avoid. Within local communities, however, I agree it can and probably should be avoided. I will need to give it some more thought but on initial inspection I believe your idea when applied on a small local level has significant merit.

[l3552]

While thinking take the following in consideration.

http://datatopics.worldbank.org/financialinclusion/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_mobile_phones_in_use

Imagine such a tool working on the BRICS, defending the chinese man from communism, getting a way to lowers and untouchable indians to trade services and education...

[iamback]

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Mar 20: industrialism required Fascism (reputation & bartering still doesn't scale in the Knowledge Age)
From:    iamback
Date:    Thu, March 19, 2015 12:07 pm
To:      "Armstrong Economics" <armstrongeconomics@gmail.com>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


First let me summarize my understanding of l3552's proposal, to make sure I haven't missed his point.

l3552 proposes to have a decentralized, non-anonymous ledger for barter trading labor-in-kind, e.g. an hour of baby sitting for an hour of baby sitting. I suppose he also proposes that users are free to exchange ledger credits across kinds, e.g. if a pair of users are willing to trade 2 hours of baby sitting for one vehicle oil change. He asserts that the incentive for using this system versus fungible money, is the reputation in the community for helping the economy grow and avoiding the fungible money which the banksters can manipulate through the aggregation of collective power that widespread fungibility enables and requires. In other words, widespread fungible money is a power vacuum and who ever can get their hands on the levers of its debasement and fractional reserve lending, can aggregate power over community and good.

In his latest post, l3552 alludes to my concept that the Industrial Age required fungible money because production required aggregation of large fixed capital investment for factories, wherein the engineering component of the investment was an insignificant economic factor. These banksters and industrialists became Fascists out of necessity (<--- click the links to understand more deeply --->), because fungible money inherently drives the risky, bankrupt paradigm of fractional reserve banking and socialism. When a capitalist makes an investment in a factory with a NAV lifespan of decades, he needs to be sure that risky paradigm won't destroy his investment. (btw, this is also a reason that sometimes capitalism gets associated with Fascism, but people need to remember that capital is not just stored money, it is any productive capacity, e.g. knowledge is capital, social skills is capital, etc.)

Whereas, the Knowledge Age is rising to bring production economics back to the individual and l3552 is proposing to eliminate the power vacuum by making the aggregation of representations of capital non-fungible (l3552 refers to fungible money as "commodization").

For example, in theory Knowledge Age workers are not most incentivized to store money, rather instead to store knowledge; thus they want to promote knowledge trading. For example, a programmer is most juiced about finding some new awesome code to integrate with his own, e.g. I started programming for Android and Scala because these are cutting edge moving technology and society forward faster. This is why I had proposed back in 2012 on my Copute.com computer language development website site (btw I need to renew this domain) that programmers could trade LOC (lines of code) as barter mechanism, but fungible within their desired target market.

There are some similarities between l3552's proposal and Catherine Austin Fitts' (solari.com) proposal for doing finance on a local community level.

The reason l3552's (and Fitts') proposal won't work is the analogous visualized criticism I made upthread wherein I explained that efficiency trumps inefficiency. Why would someone dig canals with spoons when they can work for an hour at minimum wage, purchase 4 gallons of gas, then do the equivalent of 2000 man-hours of hard labor with a combustion engine. Moreover how could someone who egregiously wastes his time be more productive and significant in the economy than someone who doesn't.

So the problem with barter systems is they are inefficient, and the one thing Knowledge Age workers detest, it is inefficiency. The entire reason the Knowledge Age trumps the Industrial Age is because efficiency wins in nature. When ideas can be produced closer to their source of inspiration (e.g. 3D printing), then granularly matched production to the granular (not one-size-fits-all mass production) market demand accelerates faster. You want a custom designed pre-fab house[1] or car[2] completed tomorrow? Okay 3D printing and we don't need to build a factory first.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2015/03/19/evolutionary-process-of-labor/

The key is to understand programming. If if you do not desire to sit in front of a computer screen all day, it will become a basic tool like knowing how to read and write.

Armstrong means that if you want to not do manual labor (e.g. manual bookkeeping account on the computer), then learn to program to automate it and be more efficient.

Reputation is important (e.g. you want to use my software code, because you know I am German and perfectionist), but it is orthogonal to the efficiency of trading value.

Also reputation in trading value can become very problematic. This the "coin taint" issue in non-anonymous Bitcoin (which is why gmaxell invent CoinJoin the precursor of Darkcoin, which btw I as AnonyMint was the first to point out could not scale because it can jammed), wherein certain coins won't be accepted or processed because of certain histories of trading. In short, the only way reputation scales is via political control, i.e. you want to drive the Knowledge Age back into the chains of Fascism that the industrialists couldn't escape!

If you want to build orthogonal reputation tracking systems, that is fine. But you can't tie the units of money to them, because otherwise there is no means to break free from "winner takes all" paradigm of politics.

Sorry guys I went down all these thought experiments years ago. That is why I get pissed off when people waste my time and don't go read what I already figured out years ago. Because I am in implementation mode now, and I only have a few months to get my work completed. You all might misperceive it as a lack of humanity on my part, but actually if I am not efficient then I am not helping mankind. And trust me, the world is depending on me right now. I don't care about those who are jealous. Go masturbate. I am busy.

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=3514

Those who can’t build, talk

...There are specific recurring kinds of errors in speculative writing about the Internet that we get exceedingly tired of seeing over and over again. One is blindness to problems of scale; another is handwaving about deployment costs; and a third is inability to notice when a proposed cooperative ‘solution’ is ruined by misalignment of incentives. There are others, but these will stand as representative for why we very seldom find any value in the writings of people who talk but don’t build.

P.S. lately I don't have an hour to put into writing each of my posts carefully as I did the above one. Sorry I am working 18 hours daily.


[1] http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150118-winsun-builds-world-first-3d-printed-villa-and-tallest-3d-printed-building-in-china.html

[2] https://localmotors.com/3d-printed-car/

[iamback]

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Mar 20: Asia is rapidly adopting automation (the West is falling back to "undeveloped")
From:    iamback
Date:    Thu, March 19, 2015 1:48 pm
To:      "Armstrong Economics" <armstrongeconomics@gmail.com>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Armstrong is still thinking I am a simpleton and he thinks I lack experience...whereas I will demonstrate below that Armstrong is the myopic dinosaur baby boomer....

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2015/03/19/evolutionary-process-of-labor/

QUESTION: ...

Thank you for all your generous efforts. We have never had someone with your experience speak so honestly and freely.

ANSWER: ... There will never be the day where there is no manual skilled labor. The evolution of technology is limited to the developed nations where we tend to live in our little bubble. Less than 10% ever travel outside their own country so how do you expect to see the world and understand the various levels of development?

Perhaps because I use a webmail SMTP mail server so that my email originates from the USA, Armstrong doesn't realize that I (a USA citizen) have resided in the Philippines (where I currently am) on and off since 1991 (first arrived just after Mt. Pinatubo had erupted). I wrote my most famous and popular software (thus far) CoolPage in 1998 from a Nipa Hut in a squatter community where with 1 human per square meter population density and a complete lack of hygiene such as no toilets nor piped in water. I wrote CoolPage while sustaining weekly bouts of Giardia and dysentry, along with a 100-115 dB Karaoke blasting from my neighbors 18 x 7. I have traveled in Mexico, Guatemala (1993), Colombia (2001), many of the states of the USA (born and raised in New Orleans & Baton Rouge in poverty wherein my sister and I were the only white kids in the school), Philippines, and Australia (1999). I've carried logs on my head over the mountains and valleys with the natives deep in the jungles of Mindanao. I have a small percentage of Cherokee native American indian blood (my grandmother was brownish skin and her great grandmother was dark skinned).

Asia will beat out the West and this is part of the shift in progress...

We will never see such an age to all mental jobs in our lifetime or that of even our children. That is an evolutionary process measured in hundreds of years, not decades. Perhaps this is why the Jews had to wander in the desert for 40 years to create a new generation with new thinking. These are generational shifts. Even pilots flying prop planes during the war found that few could make the transition to jets for the reaction time had to be radically reduced. This is one reason where generational shifts are required to technology advancement. The fax machine was patented in the 1860s. It took 120 years to make it acceptable.

In my prior post, I provided a footnote on 3D printed construction of houses which China is leading. I am here in Asia and despite my age approaching 50 this June, I interact with the youth (have a baby face, can attract younger females, still interested in fun activities, and still athletic enough to run full speed in sports with the 20-somethings).

Armstrong is missing a very important point—Asia is predominantly youth. The Philippines was the SMS capital of the world long before Twitter was created! I was here and Friendster (the precursor to Facebook, and arguably Friendster was an offshoot in 2001 of my CoolPage success and via the Homepage.com idea and license of the CoolPage software) was dominated by filipinos, not Westerners!

The filipinos have recently designed their own supercar.

In addition to the very low rate of government spending (and cost of regulation) as a percent of GDP in Asia as compared to the West, the other reason Asia will accelerate past the West is because Asia is young and the youth here don't even remember a world without mobile phones and internet! Thus Asia is ready to adopt the Knowledge Age quickly, because they are young and don't have a bankrupt government (too many constituent liabilities in the West) that will stand in the way like the NSA and Homeland Security are destroying high tech in the USA. In fact, I am predicting New Zealand to be the next Silicon valley, because of KimDotCom's initiative and political success and because in the new era of virtual collaboration then the best programmers (like myself) will choose to live and work in paradise (have you seen photos of New Zealand?)!

Just look at the cities in Asia and Dubai as compared to the cities in the West. The former have radical new high-tech architecture, and latter look like they are stuck in the 1960s.

Japan & Brazil:


USA:


Indeed it is true that many people will not be able to adapt to the requirements for full and most gainful work in the fledgling Knowledge Age, and this will be most egregious amongst the baby boomers in the West! A confluence of factors is hitting the demise of the West and it will simply fall into the abyss, there is no possible solution (other than immigrating Asia to the West and restructuring all the constituent liabilities).

A plumber and a painter may not be easily replaced but a taxi-driver will eventually be replaced.

...

It is true that the entire economy won't be automated by 2033. Oxford University's research projects 47% of existing jobs as of 2013 would be replaced with automation within 20 years.

But the salient point is that the sectors of the economy that are not automated will be 3 to 4 orders-of-magnitude less profitable and productive. Thus, those undeveloped areas (e.g. the currently "developed" western nations) will fall into the abyss with the one-world reserve currency of debt financing and socialism (I demonstrated in recent post these evils are symbiotic and sleep together).

So fuck your one-world, restructuring bullshit. It ain't the solution nor the real future. That top-down crap is for managing the slaves. The future will grass-roots break free from that.

Sure I will support your "Solutions" as a way to mitigate a Dark Age, but I doubt you will get traction. It will be the same as every other attempt you tried such as reforming taxation in the USA (when you debated Steve Forbes) and when you tried to advise them not to create the Euro without merging the national debts. You will pull your hair out in frustration with the MOR-ASS in the West. Instead I will move forward to the bottom-up future of the Knowledge Age!

I know which of these will be more effective and move faster.


http://armstrongeconomics.com/2015/03/19/jumping-to-conclusions/

...

This is something to start the debates and END class warfare which is all about Marxist philosophy. This is all about thinking out the box. A fundamental principle that is just not even considered because the majority assume this is the way we operate is what needs to be challenged. So read before you assume and add to the debate. Trying to criticize something you have not even read is condemning us to the total collapse of the entire system for it will not survive another downturn as is.

[l3552]

You do missed some points, iamback, but I thank you for your renewed try. I gonna explain using the same mental schemes of yours so that less noise is present and you met the point.

The proposition is decentralized, non-anonymous ledger for credit trading, e.g. a haircut for a book; or an hour of baby sitting for mowing 20m² of grass this weekend; or teaching mandarin every friday for 50 weeks to the holder for a new kitchen; or play at a party this saturday to the dealer(special endorsement) for 1000 liters of drinking water, insured by Dharavi Music Reputation Club. Also, users are free to exchange by group.

The assertion is that there are plenty incentives for using this system.

1) in terms of behavior selection and group survival: thieves, liars, lazy and inefficient people gonna be rapidly determined as dead weight and dropped from reputation groups and by users that can trade most sophisticated goods, also peer pressure will act locally and non-locally in a way that they mend themselves, lessening the cost of free-riding/laziness/dishonesty. This of course, is one of your main misunderstandings. This behavior selection would escalate by the club good nature of life.

2) in terms of community resilience: preserving reputation(of people and groups) by decentralized ledger leads to a minimal economic order, protecting communities and the common man on their economical choices; If almost every smartphone is part ledger, there is no way to persecute the system and as CoinCube noted "they will survive not by being hidden but by being small, hard to quantify, and unpopular to quash. Variant systems can exist in different local communities and one system could even be shut down entirely if enough external pressure was applied only to pop right back up (without much loss) as soon as the pressure abated."

3) in terms of strengthen: it was already tested hundreds of times across the globe, being a success or a total failure, that local currency always drives up local awareness and local self esteem, removing or lessening the stones repressing poor people demand and creating credit from the only place it should come from.

4) in terms of avoiding the "psychological nature" of money and its developments on human psyche and organization: money is the abstraction of human value. It is the projection of awareness into something in a way that awareness can be converted trough its projection into the awareness of greater goods. When money is a commoditie it works only alienation because it neglects the qualitative differentiation of human awareness. By doing so, it forces common good people to give real value to money, creating an idol out of paper at their cost. The value of money is the value alienated from these people forced to use it not as a mere projection but the value in itself. By depriving trading from the qualitative differentiation of human awareness you trow it on desires and though objects, that develops on and on until there is no dirty money and no essence is left. A central bank that inflates fiat money is sucking awareness out of the people until complete alienation. That consumer and sovereign debt rapid expands on this and political capability sinks is just a development.

5) in terms of public defense: today all legal taxation pass by commoditie reasoning in a way that even commercial bartering is taxed based on public or private income evaluation. To go against this is to violate privacy and non-confiscatory principle. So, the low income communities have little or no money and their majority don't even have bank accounts, in this sense, there is no way to tax their tradings. In the most perverted scenario the violence monopolist would have to confiscate huge amounts of goods without having any use for them and face political suicide. If it is not clear enough to you give it time to sink: The blood of the violence monopolist is alienated awareness, in a system without alienation of qualitative differentiation of human awareness there is no space to such a group. THE MAIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ECONOMICAL AND POLITICAL CHOICE IS COMMODITIZATION OF HUMAN AWARENESS.

6) in terms of escalation: nothing prohibits that social community bonds become economical ones and entire cities and states start to form even more sophisticated groups trading awareness of even greater goods, squeezing out commoditization bottom-up.

7) in terms of lasting goods: the pressure for lasting tradable goods would purge planned obsolescence and low quality products.

As I said before and the understanding of it is not a matter of intellectual capacity, "the solution the world depends on is exactly the one you most need". Qualitative differentiation of human awareness is the only value that ever existed.

Look this system by the prism of reputation as a non-rival currency in a way that every peer and group value is linked and measured by the qualitative differentiation get from it reviewing and being reviewed weighed by its trades. You gonna have more chance on understanding, besides this is allegory.

[iamback]

1) in terms of behavior selection and group survival: thieves, liars, lazy and inefficient people gonna be rapidly determined as dead weight and dropped from reputation groups and by users that can trade most sophisticated goods, also peer pressure will act locally and non-locally in a way that they mend themselves, lessening the cost of free-riding/laziness/dishonesty. This of course, is one of your main misunderstandings. This behavior selection would escalate by the club good nature of life.

Your fantasy is not how political science actually functions.

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=984

Some Iron Laws of Political Economics

Mancur Olson, in his book The Logic Of Collective Action, highlighted the central problem of politics in a democracy. The benefits of political market-rigging can be concentrated to benefit particular special interest groups, while the costs (in higher taxes, slower economic growth, and many other second-order effects) are diffused through the entire population.

The result is a scramble in which individual interest groups perpetually seek to corner more and more rent from the system, while the incremental costs of this behavior rise slowly enough that it is difficult to sustain broad political opposition to the overall system of political privilege and rent-seeking.

When you add to Olson’s model the fact that the professional political class is itself a special interest group which collects concentrated benefits from encouraging rent-seeking behavior in others, it becomes clear why, as Olson pointed out, “good government” is a public good subject to exactly the same underproduction problems as other public goods. Furthermore, as democracies evolve, government activity that might produce “good government” tends to be crowded out by coalitions of rent-seekers and their tribunes.

This general model has consequences. Here are some of them:

...

Sorry you are not going to consume any more of my time with your DELUSIONAL, naivete, fantasy, nonsense.

If it is not clear enough to you give it time to sink: The blood of the violence monopolist is alienated awareness, in a system without alienation of qualitative differentiation of human awareness there is no space to such a group. THE MAIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ECONOMICAL AND POLITICAL CHOICE IS COMMODITIZATION OF HUMAN AWARENESS.

Damn man, haven't you learned by now that the power-law distribution of wealth and the fact that the majority are always sheep are inexorable facts of nature. You can't change them.

The masses will always be eager to be lead.

The only way to remove the power of the stupid sheep to destroy themselves, is as  it has always been—anonymous cash and black markets.

Up until recently gold and other cash forms were anonymous and a release valve against cyclical collectivized political failure.

Now the technology has changed to digitally tracked money, and so we have to create anonymous cash again.

Duh!

[l3552]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcvjoWOwnn4

[iamback]

The opening post of this thread quotes me as follows, wherein I explained that the delusion that you promulgate is actually the cause of what you seek to prevent!  

Charlie Chaplin final speech in The Great Dictator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcvjoWOwnn4

http://www.coolpage.com/commentary/economic/shelby/Understand%20Everything%20Fundamentally.html

...because they will continue to repeat the mechanism which they do not understand to be a cause of their suffering. This can be verified in a petri dish...

I am sorry but greed is not the problem.

The problem is mathematical, natural, and it can't be terminated. The cyclical swing between public and private money will persist forever.

My job today is to make sure we have private money in a digital age.

Now please STFU! This discussion is becoming redundant. If you persist, I will bow out of the noise.

[CoinCube]

...
the problem with barter systems is they are inefficient, and the one thing Knowledge Age workers detest, it is inefficiency. The entire reason the Knowledge Age trumps the Industrial Age is because efficiency wins in nature. When ideas can be produced closer to their source of inspiration (e.g. 3D printing), then granularly matched production to the granular (not one-size-fits-all mass production) market demand accelerates faster. You want a custom designed pre-fab house[1] or car[2] completed tomorrow? Okay 3D printing and we don't need to build a factory first.
...
Also reputation in trading value can become very problematic. This the "coin taint" issue in non-anonymous Bitcoin (which is why gmaxell invent CoinJoin the precursor of Darkcoin, which btw I as AnonyMint was the first to point out could not scale

...
low income communities have little or no money and their majority don't even have bank accounts, in this sense, there is no way to tax their tradings. In the most perverted scenario the violence monopolist would have to confiscate huge amounts of goods without having any use for them and face political suicide. If it is not clear enough to you give it time to sink: The blood of the violence monopolist is alienated awareness, in a system without alienation of qualitative differentiation of human awareness there is no space to such a group. THE MAIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ECONOMICAL AND POLITICAL CHOICE IS COMMODITIZATION OF HUMAN AWARENESS.
...
Look this system by the prism of reputation as a non-rival currency in a way that every peer and group value is linked and measured by the qualitative differentiation get from it reviewing and being reviewed weighed by its trades.

iamback you make a case for why the system presented by l3552 will have difficulties scaling. However, we need to ask ourselves does it need to scale to accomplish its intended goals. My thinking is that it may not. The intended target of such a labor credit system is not the Knowledge age workers such as yourself but those who have been left behind. Knowledge workers as you rightly point out will minimize their use of such a local system as it is more efficient for them to participate in larger and lucrative worldwide networks.

However a labor credit system (essentially a technologically enhanced barter) is potentially beneficial for the poor, the lower middle class, and those who have been induced to malinvest in their training due to our current labor market distortions. Many of these individuals simply do not have the skills needed to participate in a budding knowledge age as they have become entraped by false market signals produced by debt.

Often low income individuals currently receive fixed government subsidies. To supplement these they often they work under the table for cash because formal employment means losing benefits. As we transition to centralized electronic fiat and cash is phased out these individuals will increasingly be forced out of the labor market entirely becoming ever more enmeshed in a web of government dependence. The poor will increasingly be unable to work formally or informally.

The resulting free time creates an economic nitch for the discussed barter system. Furthermore, such a system is educational and would help people become aware of their situation and the root cause of their suffering. Individuals who have malinvested their lives due to debt bubbles are likely to never recover economically, however, they may be able to insure their children do not suffer the same fate.

A rapid and smooth transition to a knowledge age requires us to try and find solutions for these people. If you simply say that they are "obsolete" and must go the way of the bacteria in the Petri dish you are essentially throwing the game because such a scenario guarantees a dark age, massive violence, and social unrest that will set us all back a very long time. The decades long hatred of the English and violence in Ireland following the potato famine is a good example of where this line of hard logic takes us.

Social capital is hard to quantify but there is little doubt that it important and that it is declining. In pretty much every modern country all the forms of in-person social intercourse are in decline. These are real declines in interactions that educate, and enrich our lives and are not adequately substituted by online exchange or knowledge age activities. I suspect even knowledge age workers, would be willing to participate a little in a vibrant labor credit/barter economy despite its relative inefficiency if it helped to enmesh them in a vibrant and fulfilling local web of personal interactions.  

Overall as I said upthread I view the proposal of l3552 as synergistic rather then competitive with your efforts.

PS. It is clear from your most recent messages that time is a commodity you do not have in abundance right now. I will take no offence if you lack the time to reply to my points above.

[l3552]

Your fantasy is not how political science actually functions.

Because it was experienced, conceptualized and taught in a world of commoditization of human awareness. It's flawed to the bone.

If it is not clear enough to you give it time to sink: The blood of the violence monopolist is alienated awareness, in a system without alienation of qualitative differentiation of human awareness there is no space to such a group. THE MAIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ECONOMICAL AND POLITICAL CHOICE IS COMMODITIZATION OF HUMAN AWARENESS.

Damn man, haven't you learned by now that the power-law distribution of wealth and the fact that the majority are always sheep are inexorable facts of nature. You can't change them.

The masses will always be eager to be lead.

The only way to remove the power of the stupid sheep to destroy themselves...

You are not wrong by saying that the majority is like sheep. Right now the lamb breed and live her entire life on captivity by the interests of some farmer that do his best to keep the flock as homogeneous as it can be. But, once in a while some weird and strong lamb is born capable of dragging centuries of conditioning and getting new ideas and as this is a recurrent problem it was envisioned to get this special sheep as much as against the flock as possible and/or offer it cheap honors. You can act like the pigs from Animal Farm or like the sheep you are and help your peers.

The opening post of this thread quotes me as follows, wherein I explained that the delusion that you promulgate is actually the cause of what you seek to prevent!  

Charlie Chaplin final speech in The Great Dictator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcvjoWOwnn4

http://www.coolpage.com/commentary/economic/shelby/Understand%20Everything%20Fundamentally.html
I am sorry but greed is not the problem.

The problem is mathematical, natural, and it can't be terminated. The cyclical swing between public and private money will persist forever.

My job today is to make sure we have private money in a digital age.

"greed" as "money" requires commoditization to have meaning as a word. The passing of greed is not the changing of human nature by itself, but the systemic change that will allow the realization that you can't have more by depriving others, because you are linked. How can I be greedy in a system that for ever single transaction I do I got as much good as I shared?

[iamback]

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Mar 20: the delusion of Marxism persists
From:   iamback
Date:    Thu, March 19, 2015 9:22 pm
To:      "Armstrong Economics" <armstrongeconomics@gmail.com>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


CoinCube, it is unfortunate that you are blinded from math by your emotions.

All reputation systems scale to "winner take all". Humans can manage this in small tribes within their Dunbar limit where they can see all the shit that everyone does to minute detail so the tribal leader is held accountable. But we don't live in isolated tribes any more. Thermodynamics applies in spades (c.f. Coasian barriers, closed vs. open systems, etc).

I could go into this from physics, entropy, power vacuum, etc.. I don't have time now.

That you can fall into this shit which has been tried over and over in history just goes to show how hopeless it is to reform a MOR-ASS. Humans are really blinded to their fate in the Petri dish. They will continue to make the same mistakes over and over again.

Blaming greed is just more of the "99% vs. 1%" delusion that reinforces the status quo. We don't have a magic wand to make human nature and power-law distributions not exist (because if they didn't exist then uniform distributions require the speed-of-light would be infinite and the past and present would collapse into a infinitesimal point and we would cease to exist).

Hey we are going into a vortex of collapse. You better understand that no one can stop that. Nature might solve the problem with a pandemic. Man will help out with wars. This is the way these cycles play out. All I can do is help to provide outlets for those who are smart enough. I can't help a dumb parasite be not dumb. Come on, we are not God.

I do believe that expanding the Knowledge Age will provide many opportunities for even those who have a lower education. Do you know how many uneducated people I am hiring for the launch of my new website?

Analogous to Armstrong framing the need for his "Solution" due to his claim of impossibility of private money in the digital age, you are also I think overstating a false dichotomy. The Knowledge Age will provide opportunities for all walks of people.

Edit to add: This delusion about poor people learning from some system of labor credits is just so incredibly ignorant of the reality of how things work in the real world, it just boggles my mind. Sorry if this is insulting, but you are acting like Cathedral academic who is out-of-touch with reality. The labor credits themselves will be another form of slavery. What the poor want is fungible money, even my ex trades some of her food stamps for cash!

What you are really asking for is an anonymous currency, not for a non-anonymous ledger!

[OROBTC]

...

Ol' Dr. CoinCube must have one of the most decent personalities of anyone I have seen online, LOLOL....

iamback, you even called him your friend (and near intellectual peer)!  And, yes, I did read CC's recent post mentioning that he is accustomed to your manner of address.  (I am getting thicker skin by the day, but for other reasons)

But, there are smart people around who prefer a more civilized level of discourse.  Maybe you would get better results (more insightful comments beyond my league, for example) if you just played nicely!

Whatever, I find THIS THREAD to be probably the most interesting one here at bitcointalk.  Just the fact that there have been so many replies (almost 1000 replies) for so long demonstrates that CoinCube and iamback (and all you others) have found real paydirt for anyone wishing to read through all of this...

[iamback]

I didn't say anything insulting to CoinCube. He cares about people, as do I. But surely he will see that he isn't helping people by fostering their delusions. By standing in the way of their adjustment by impeding the incentives the free market will give humans to adapt, he will only make the problem worse.

As for welfare to help people over the hump of their adjustments, we can all do that. We all know people we can help out.

[OROBTC]

...

Actually, iamback, I believe you're right on both counts, that both of you care.  You would not have put in time here if you did not care. (Same comment for CoinCube).  And, I commend you for that.

Also, since you are involved in something at a very high intellectual level, yeah OK, "we" can cut you some slack, smile,,,  I don't mean to be an asshole (EDIT: or a dumbshit...).

But (as I mentioned in that other thread), I would bet that many of us would be very curious to learn about your recent programming work (when you are done), whether you broadcast it as yours or not.  I am *guessing* that the Knowledge Age would encourage sharing of information.

[iamback]

It is useless if I don't share it.