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Author Topic: Economic Devastation  (Read 504731 times)
rpietila
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June 12, 2015, 01:36:22 PM
 #1661

If you can spare 1 hour, watch this. Tellinger takes you to many interesting subjects related to free energy, which is the condition to weaken the money monopoly. With free energy, there is not much need for money.

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June 12, 2015, 02:24:01 PM
 #1662

If you can spare 1 hour, watch this. Tellinger takes you to many interesting subjects related to free energy, which is the condition to weaken the money monopoly. With free energy, there is not much need for money.

I will watch but TPTB will nuke the planet to defend their current paradigm. They can't have us Muggles being on par with them.

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June 12, 2015, 06:31:54 PM
 #1663

If you can spare 1 hour, watch this. Tellinger takes you to many interesting subjects related to free energy, which is the condition to weaken the money monopoly. With free energy, there is not much need for money.

I will watch but TPTB will nuke the planet to defend their current paradigm. They can't have us Muggles being on par with them.

All the levels of TPTB are just tools, even Rothschilds. The one really calling the shots is Satan, but we know how that's going to end.

Personally I see it very useful and valuable to learn how to make things work as they are supposed to, and how to govern the Earth, even while the evil is still among us.

HIM TVA Dragon, AOK-GM, Emperor of the Earth, Creator of the World, King of Crypto Kingdom, Lord of Malla, AOD-GEN, SA-GEN5, Ministry of Plenty (Join NOW!), Professor of Economics and Theology, Ph.D, AM, Chairman, Treasurer, Founder, CEO, 3*MG-2, 82*OHK, NKP, WTF, FFF, etc(x3)
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June 13, 2015, 12:46:04 AM
Last edit: June 13, 2015, 01:45:28 AM by STT
 #1664

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiVROBhwHUM&spfreload=10

This very brilliant guy Tellinger is advocating the society based on small communities that voluntarily send a part of their produce to the neighbors. Yet there is no money, no barter, no trade nor value involved.

It will become possible via higher consciousness, he says.

Evil is evil Tongue
Communism idealism, dreams are dangerous when you act without thought.    Money is nothing but a marker, it allows us to count more precisely thats all really.   Pure barter or voluntary sharing as this is framed is a step backwards very simply because its less precise and harder to describe or plan for in a business cycle.    Sounds like just somebody who should be respecting or at least examining with a level head ideas in wealth of nations or similar, comparative advantage is a massive thing especially now with global trading.  Pure barter across such gaps does not work, or even a plain montary fixed ratio does not work as well as the free flow of money and varied contracts every day.  It disables some trade, discourages speculative ventures that might take place; in a small town setting, agrarian cooperative shared resource planning and ideas such as that could be a positive.

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TPTB_need_war
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June 13, 2015, 07:47:25 PM
 #1665

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiVROBhwHUM&spfreload=10

This very brilliant guy Tellinger is advocating the society based on small communities that voluntarily send a part of their produce to the neighbors. Yet there is no money, no barter, no trade nor value involved.

It will become possible via higher consciousness, he says.

Evil is evil Tongue
Communism idealism, dreams are dangerous when you act without thought.    Money is nothing but a marker, it allows us to count more precisely thats all really.   Pure barter or voluntary sharing as this is framed is a step backwards very simply because its less precise and harder to describe or plan for in a business cycle.    Sounds like just somebody who should be respecting or at least examining with a level head ideas in wealth of nations or similar, comparative advantage is a massive thing especially now with global trading.  Pure barter across such gaps does not work, or even a plain montary fixed ratio does not work as well as the free flow of money and varied contracts every day.  It disables some trade, discourages speculative ventures that might take place; in a small town setting, agrarian cooperative shared resource planning and ideas such as that could be a positive.

In short, sharing scales to Communism because it isn't economic.

(really if we all shared everything, nothing would get invested and if we don't account accurately, investment can't scale ... well at least this was true in the high fixed capital Industrial Age ... the Knowledge Age should enable the Gift economy ... my point is the system we have now was economically unavoidable because we didn't have the technology to move the real capital to the ends of the network but now we do...).

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June 14, 2015, 11:08:33 AM
 #1666

I can't believe that I ran at roughly 5:35 minutes per mile pace for the latter 0.75 miles of a 1.25 mile run, with that latter portion going uphill roughly a 30 meter change in elevation. I've done basically no training over the past several weeks and I thought I felt fatigued and weak going into run. And I had slight pain in my stomach throughout the run, but I discovered some power lurking as I powered through the second half of the run on the steepest uphill portion as I turned the halfway point. Hmmm. Maybe the recent treatments are working.

My half-a-century birthday is this month.

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June 14, 2015, 01:08:53 PM
 #1667

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiVROBhwHUM&spfreload=10

This very brilliant guy Tellinger is advocating the society based on small communities that voluntarily send a part of their produce to the neighbors. Yet there is no money, no barter, no trade nor value involved.

It will become possible via higher consciousness, he says.

Evil is evil Tongue
Communism idealism, dreams are dangerous when you act without thought.    Money is nothing but a marker, it allows us to count more precisely thats all really.   Pure barter or voluntary sharing as this is framed is a step backwards very simply because its less precise and harder to describe or plan for in a business cycle.    Sounds like just somebody who should be respecting or at least examining with a level head ideas in wealth of nations or similar, comparative advantage is a massive thing especially now with global trading.  Pure barter across such gaps does not work, or even a plain montary fixed ratio does not work as well as the free flow of money and varied contracts every day.  It disables some trade, discourages speculative ventures that might take place; in a small town setting, agrarian cooperative shared resource planning and ideas such as that could be a positive.

In short, sharing scales to Communism because it isn't economic.

(really if we all shared everything, nothing would get invested and if we don't account accurately, investment can't scale ... well at least this was true in the high fixed capital Industrial Age ... the Knowledge Age should enable the Gift economy ... my point is the system we have now was economically unavoidable because we didn't have the technology to move the real capital to the ends of the network but now we do...).

In discussions like this, it always end up pointing towards the same conclusion: In the future money will just be useless. I still think a resource based economy is the big next step in evolution, but it will take ages to reach there, and cryptocurrencies will be an intermediate step.
Comparing RBE with 20th century communisms is pointless because advanced automation is a new paradigm. Capitalism cannot deal with this constant automation of all sectors forever.
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June 14, 2015, 01:25:19 PM
 #1668

...

rpietila

My recollection is that the Bible says that it is the love of money that is the root of evil.  A careful reading of Matthew's passage (and knowing the context of those days) re the rich man and the camel going through the eye of a needle suggests that it is not being rich per se, it is that the rich man must unload his camel at the town gate and pass through the little door to enter the city after dark...

*  *  *

I did not watch the video you linked (yet), but perhaps at small scale such altruism (sharing produce w/ neighbors) might work -- at that scale.

*  *  *

I completely agree that without concentration of capital it would be essentially impossible to build factories.  I know that would be the case for ball bearing plants which require a LOT of money to build and run. 

"Ball bearings are my business."

only half-jokingly: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:26967

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June 14, 2015, 04:04:49 PM
 #1669

...

molecular

Fun link, thanks!  Yes, making a good sphere for a steel bearing ball seems *hard*.

Re printing and ball bearings, we have thought a bit about whether or not 3-D printing is a threat or some kind of opportunity we should try to take advantage of...

1)  Rolling bearings are made with a special steel, 52100 alloy, that is 1% carbon with a small amount of chromium.  This is a hard steel, it corrodes more than stainless, but is tough.  Bearings for wheels of cars have to be tough and hard.  Plastic will not cut it (yet).  (Our company buys automotive bearings for Korean and Japanese vehicles)

2)  Rolling bearings are produced in very large quantities.  For one of our Korean suppliers, if we want a "new piece" (one they currently do not make), the minimum quantity is 10,000 pcs.  For any piece for which they have the tooling, but is not in current production, the minimum is 5000 pcs.  This gives them an economy of scale that is hard for 3-D printing to touch.

3)  In the near-term future, it is possible that certain special sizes (large pieces not in stock anywhere in the world) could be made on an emergency basis (like a big bearing for a mine's drilling shaft).  When a BIG bearing goes down, it can cost a mine, say, over $10,000 per day while their equipment is not running.  A printed bearing like this might work in this context, even if they have to print up a few of them (as a printed bearing would have a short life) before Timken or SKF could make a proper replacement piece.
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June 14, 2015, 05:05:52 PM
 #1670

OROBTC yes things that need to manufactured in high economies-of-scale are not Knowledge Age directed. But realize that both the profit margins and cost-of-production on such manufacture is declining inexorably and asymptotically towards 0. Knowledge Age activities are where all the economic activity increasingly resides. I made this point with some data and a chart in one of the two essays I wrote which are linked in the opening post of this thread.

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June 14, 2015, 05:21:43 PM
 #1671

...

Yes, TPTB, I understand that the margins for mass-produced products are decreasing (especially as CHINA pushes further into "el-cheapo" bearing production).  And that the returns on high-knowledge products and services will increase in the future.

Peru, alas, is not ready for the Knowledge Age.  And those of us running our bearing company are too old to be active participants in the new age to come.

One of the few areas where knowledge DOES help us is that certain automotive applications require "special pieces".  The OEM car companies wanted to be able to corral owners, where possible, into buying a replacement piece that ONLY they have (that a Korean bearing maker made for Hyundai for example).  WE know many of those pieces, and we OWN the Korean bearing market in Peru.

A mini-monopoly, close anyway and for now (as China edges into these markets)...
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June 15, 2015, 12:21:24 AM
 #1672

I have started to re-train myself, found some short online game development courses for n00bs, they are interesting, and I find them being structured helps, and I can learn at my own slow ass pace.

Whether I ever get good enough to survive with my new skills is another question  Tongue
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June 15, 2015, 04:57:22 PM
 #1673

WE know many of those pieces, and we OWN the Korean bearing market in Peru.

A mini-monopoly, close anyway and for now (as China edges into these markets)...

That is arbitrage which is a Knowledge Age vocation.

How many times have I said programming is not the only (or even 1/100th of) the vocation(s) in the coming Knowledge Age.

http://www.futuristspeaker.com/2011/11/55-jobs-of-the-future/

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June 15, 2015, 05:03:33 PM
 #1674

I reiterate my statement. For knowledge capital to trade and invest optimally in the Knowledge Age, we need anonymous, decentralized, micropayments money.


Quote from: Plato, _Euthyphro_, 380 BCE
Soc. Then that which is dear to the [plutocrat]s, Euthyphro, is not [money], nor is that which is [money] loved of [plutocracy], as you affirm; but they are two different things.
(Germaneness mine.)

Ontologically, “the [currency] or [money]” (qtd. in username18333) cannot (at least, substantively) undermine an international plutocracy.

Society will always be a bell curve and not uniformly distributed.

But the Knowledge Age paradigm shifts the incentives for those who concentrate the knowledge capital, such that incentives align with the ends of the network due to the End-to-end principle of network scaling.

It was the friction of high fixed capital investment of the Industrial Age which prevented optimal network scaling.

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June 15, 2015, 07:50:29 PM
 #1675

I have started to re-train myself, found some short online game development courses for n00bs, they are interesting, and I find them being structured helps, and I can learn at my own slow ass pace.

Whether I ever get good enough to survive with my new skills is another question  Tongue

Its great that youre picking up your strength and weakness of skills.

And you want to utilize it, but what I learned something in my life time is, why let that be your problem. Let it be someone elses problem, and utilize them to create your own project like you mentioned on a x20 faster speed. Comparison of having DSL for the first time, or stuck using 56k modem of your project speed being done.
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June 15, 2015, 08:53:52 PM
 #1676

It's not such a big problem, and so far I enjoy it, I have spent the last 15 years repairing electro/mechanical machinery, and I would like to "get off the tools" eventually, I just see it as the next step rather than doing the same thing for eternity.
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June 16, 2015, 12:15:28 AM
 #1677

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiVROBhwHUM&spfreload=10

This very brilliant guy Tellinger is advocating the society based on small communities that voluntarily send a part of their produce to the neighbors. Yet there is no money, no barter, no trade nor value involved.

It will become possible via higher consciousness, he says.

Evil is evil Tongue
Communism idealism, dreams are dangerous when you act without thought.    Money is nothing but a marker, it allows us to count more precisely thats all really.   Pure barter or voluntary sharing as this is framed is a step backwards very simply because its less precise and harder to describe or plan for in a business cycle.    Sounds like just somebody who should be respecting or at least examining with a level head ideas in wealth of nations or similar, comparative advantage is a massive thing especially now with global trading.  Pure barter across such gaps does not work, or even a plain montary fixed ratio does not work as well as the free flow of money and varied contracts every day.  It disables some trade, discourages speculative ventures that might take place; in a small town setting, agrarian cooperative shared resource planning and ideas such as that could be a positive.

In short, sharing scales to Communism because it isn't economic.

(really if we all shared everything, nothing would get invested and if we don't account accurately, investment can't scale ... well at least this was true in the high fixed capital Industrial Age ... the Knowledge Age should enable the Gift economy ... my point is the system we have now was economically unavoidable because we didn't have the technology to move the real capital to the ends of the network but now we do...).

In discussions like this, it always end up pointing towards the same conclusion: In the future money will just be useless. I still think a resource based economy is the big next step in evolution, but it will take ages to reach there, and cryptocurrencies will be an intermediate step.
Comparing RBE with 20th century communisms is pointless because advanced automation is a new paradigm. Capitalism cannot deal with this constant automation of all sectors forever.

This goes back to history though.

Its why bartering doesnt work, and why fiat money was created to avoid bartering, incase someone doesnt like what they like for trade and still wanted something.

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June 16, 2015, 01:42:17 AM
 #1678

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiVROBhwHUM&spfreload=10

This very brilliant guy Tellinger is advocating the society based on small communities that voluntarily send a part of their produce to the neighbors. Yet there is no money, no barter, no trade nor value involved.

It will become possible via higher consciousness, he says.

Evil is evil Tongue
Communism idealism, dreams are dangerous when you act without thought.    Money is nothing but a marker, it allows us to count more precisely thats all really.   Pure barter or voluntary sharing as this is framed is a step backwards very simply because its less precise and harder to describe or plan for in a business cycle.    Sounds like just somebody who should be respecting or at least examining with a level head ideas in wealth of nations or similar, comparative advantage is a massive thing especially now with global trading.  Pure barter across such gaps does not work, or even a plain montary fixed ratio does not work as well as the free flow of money and varied contracts every day.  It disables some trade, discourages speculative ventures that might take place; in a small town setting, agrarian cooperative shared resource planning and ideas such as that could be a positive.

Some people adore communism, its just capitalism won back in the day.

Bartering only works to a certain extent, but as a business cycle I dont think any of it is pretty much reliable unless you do decide make a reputable plateform similar to ebay, but bartering style.

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June 16, 2015, 08:35:48 AM
 #1679

A real world example of what CoinCube and that other user proposed upthread (forgot his username):

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Making-a-difference/Change-Agent/2012/0505/Greek-town-creates-its-own-alternative-currency

Again I maintain it can't scale (without anonymity and decentralization), because politics only scales by the Logic of Collective Action which is an enslavement paradigm due to the power vacuum.

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June 17, 2015, 04:57:18 AM
 #1680

A real world example of what CoinCube and that other user proposed upthread (forgot his username):

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Making-a-difference/Change-Agent/2012/0505/Greek-town-creates-its-own-alternative-currency

Again I maintain it can't scale (without anonymity and decentralization), because politics only scales by the Logic of Collective Action which is an enslavement paradigm due to the power vacuum.

Very interesting thanks for the link.
There are certainly huge and perhaps insurmountable challenges to scaling something like this up. However, a system like this does not necessarily need to scale up be useful to its participants.
 
The primary benefits of such a barter system appear to be:
1) Cutting out government, fiat currency, and perhaps taxation from transactions
2) Promoting self sufficiency and reducing dependence
3) Strengthening community bonds

The largest downsides are of course inefficiency and limited fungibility.  

For those who did not read the prior discussion we discussed the hypothetical case of a system like this up-thread in post #976-986
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=355212.msg10819803#msg10819803



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