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Author Topic: Economic Devastation  (Read 504742 times)
CoinCube (OP)
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April 19, 2015, 08:16:00 PM
 #1241

This is it.

There will never be another US Election. The US Constitution will be suspended making Obama a Dictator.

Coinits OROBTC has been around a lot longer than I. It seems probable that I hold the same advantage on you. Age grants wisdom and OROBTC's advice in this area is very sound. I am comfortable going on record to state that your prediction above will not happen.

TPTB I agree with your comments that the transition to a knowledge age is profound and a game changer. I suspect if we drilled down to the core of our remaining divergence we would once again find that it is largely a philosophical one.

As we are both busy at the moment lets table that (probably unresolvable) debate for another day.
We agree more than we disagree. That will suffice for now.

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April 19, 2015, 09:24:37 PM
 #1242

@thaaanos Your link looks interesting but it is a bit long so I will have to watch it later.
Look here also http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-050j-information-and-entropy-spring-2008/videos-homework-and-readings/unit1-lecture-2/
at aprox 1:00:00,
Mailed him if he has a paper handy but he replied there are only drafts yet.
Trying to find more I came accross this blog
http://informationtransfereconomics.blogspot.gr with awful a lot to consume, seems like other disciplines are converging in economics that may get fresh ideas
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April 19, 2015, 10:23:45 PM
 #1243

Well I disagree with your opinion of ZH. Martin is now submitting articles to ZH.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-19/martin-armstrong-understanding-jacksons-bank-war-critical-our-future


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TPTB_need_war
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April 20, 2015, 12:09:00 AM
 #1244

Well I disagree with your opinion of ZH. Martin is now submitting articles to ZH.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-19/martin-armstrong-understanding-jacksons-bank-war-critical-our-future

ZH has some useful posts, buried in a smorgasbord of hyperventilated noise.

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April 20, 2015, 04:20:34 AM
 #1245

...

coinits

When I referred to Jimmy Carter, it is important to understand the "zeitgeist" of many of us back then.  Arab oil embargo.  Sweater clad morose president.  Right-wing talk radio was just getting started.

That was the first (and only) time I bought some rural property (in S Central TX, remote, w/ water, nice lil ol place).  I thought I was ready to head for the hills when the hammer dropped...  LOL!  Right, like I could farm...

Through the years my feelings re the US economy have ebbed and flowed.  I got concerned again in 1999 (like many others).  After 9/11, I switched into a higher gear, and was lucky to get gold in the $600 range, wish I had bought a LOT MORE...

Smiley

Then the 2004 - 2006 Housing Bubble, ugh.  When 2007 (Bear-Stearns) and then scary 2008 (yikes!) happened, I felt like there was a 50-50 chance that something REALLY BAD was going to happen, and very soon.  Ah well, not so much...  Not in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and so far in 2015.  Even though:

NONE of our financial problems have been solved.   <=== bad sign

NO ONE of significance has gone to jail re the financial crisis.   <=== another bad sign

WHY the system has not cratered or reset yet I do not know, other than reading history which does show that dangerous financial distortions can go on for many, many years...   And usually end in Black Swans, that very few can foresee.  I have tried to foresee such things, and am usually wrong (short term), but my record is better given enough time.  This could all go south very soon, or like TPTB_n_w suggests in 2 - 3 years.  My inclination is to *guess* that King Dollar will reign a little while longer.  

Signs (IMO) to look for:

1)  A BIG spike in the US$ (more so than now)

2)  Hillary as president (OMG, did I really write that?!)

3)  Iran/Middle East/China/Ukraine war starts emerging (and so far NOTHING serious there yet)

4)  Grexit -- I think that the euro will have many problems after that.  Not much time to prepare after that so stay alert if that happens

Hey, but I'm just another Internet pundit.
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April 20, 2015, 01:41:24 PM
 #1246

...

coinits

When I referred to Jimmy Carter, it is important to understand the "zeitgeist" of many of us back then.  Arab oil embargo.  Sweater clad morose president.  Right-wing talk radio was just getting started.

That was the first (and only) time I bought some rural property (in S Central TX, remote, w/ water, nice lil ol place).  I thought I was ready to head for the hills when the hammer dropped...  LOL!  Right, like I could farm...

Through the years my feelings re the US economy have ebbed and flowed.  I got concerned again in 1999 (like many others).  After 9/11, I switched into a higher gear, and was lucky to get gold in the $600 range, wish I had bought a LOT MORE...

Smiley

Then the 2004 - 2006 Housing Bubble, ugh.  When 2007 (Bear-Stearns) and then scary 2008 (yikes!) happened, I felt like there was a 50-50 chance that something REALLY BAD was going to happen, and very soon.  Ah well, not so much...  Not in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and so far in 2015.  Even though:

NONE of our financial problems have been solved.   <=== bad sign

NO ONE of significance has gone to jail re the financial crisis.   <=== another bad sign

WHY the system has not cratered or reset yet I do not know, other than reading history which does show that dangerous financial distortions can go on for many, many years...   And usually end in Black Swans, that very few can foresee.  I have tried to foresee such things, and am usually wrong (short term), but my record is better given enough time.  This could all go south very soon, or like TPTB_n_w suggests in 2 - 3 years.  My inclination is to *guess* that King Dollar will reign a little while longer.  

Signs (IMO) to look for:

1)  A BIG spike in the US$ (more so than now)

2)  Hillary as president (OMG, did I really write that?!)

3)  Iran/Middle East/China/Ukraine war starts emerging (and so far NOTHING serious there yet)

4)  Grexit -- I think that the euro will have many problems after that.  Not much time to prepare after that so stay alert if that happens

Hey, but I'm just another Internet pundit.

Have you read the works of Joel Skousen? Very bright and articulate. He has made a small fortune building bug-out shelters for wealthy people, mainly in the USA. He gives us a window of, at maximum, 6 years until a nuclear war. Simplified, China and Russia will form a strategic alliance in response to:

A) Russia being marginalized and economy weakened through US & NATO meddling in the Crimea region (He predicted this two years before these shenanigans started while Russia & US were having a love fest). That is what made me take notice of him.

B) China becomes involved when the US debt that they hold becomes worthless through the USA weakening their dollar deliberately to make China go broke. This is not fulfilled yet.

He says that the first strike will come from China and Russia and the USA will not retaliate.

End result will be a rise of a global police state, a very weakened USA, and reduced populations levels.

Truth? I don't know but step A has happened. If Step B occurs then all bets are off.

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April 20, 2015, 05:36:40 PM
Last edit: April 21, 2015, 10:01:17 PM by TPTB_need_war
 #1247

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Pen is mightier than the sword; coming War Cycle will be mostly propaganda
Date:    Tue, April 21, 2015 5:57 pm
To:      "Armstrong Economics" <armstrongeconomics@gmail.com>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Recall my quotes of Howard Katz upthread wherein he stated, "THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD".

I was discussing the likelihood of a Russian EMP attack on the USA here and here, and basically it doesn't seem likely because the global elite want to maintain control.

The elite needed WW2 to prod the USA into war so they could take over the country with a corrupted central bank and income tax fueled by the need to borrow massively during that period. At this time, there are no such strong countries that resist the NWO, thus there is no need for total chaos. Instead the elite want a controlled burn. What we are seeing now is scripted show between globalists' elite controlled countries and leaders (e.g. the Russia vs. NATO scripted conflict propaganda), to scare and lead the masses into the NWO. Nevertheless globalist the-powers-that-be want to raise the fear factor as much as possible to keep the Marxist (reliance on government) sheep locked into the headlights all the way through. Thus limited EMP attack is not implausible, if they are sure they can prevent this from spinning out-of-control to full scale nuclear war. Rather it is much more likely this will be a "virtual war" where the war is mostly about propaganda on mass and social media (a viral disease of collectivist political correctness mass delusion) to program the minds of the masses to accept the NWO savior. Do you understand now why the CIA and bankster's such as Goldman and JP Morgan financed Facebook and control every major mass media operation? Thus if you are addicted to Alex Jones (Infowars, etc), ZeroHedge, or any other hyperventilated, sensationalists media outlet, then you are already hooked into this "virtual war" mind programming. You probably stack gold too which is another confirmation.

In short, Armstrong's coming War Cycle will be an informational war, because we have moved into the information age. Also because people are mostly zombies now (rational, critical, independent thinkers are rare).

There will be a POTUS "election" in November 2016 but it will be a farce and this will propel the rebellion after 2016 which leads to the breakup of the USA over the coming decades, especially as the economy turns down hard starting later in 2017. For the elite's NWO plans, all that matters is to control the mass media propaganda that will portray patriotic civil disobedience as anarchy, warlordism, terrorism, extremism, and lack of order (i.e. chaos).

As I wrote previously, it won't be until after 2017 that the USA turns down hard economically (although the actuarial decline is underway and accelerating, it is masked by the international capital inflows and the $trillion cash deficits to keep the masses oblivious).

As I wrote previously, the USA peaked and began it's decline on April 2013 with Edward Snowden's expose.

As I wrote previously, a global pandemic circa 2018-2019 could be caused by or exacerbate the coming wars.

I have written many times about China's ruling party being fully on board for the plan of the global elite to turn the world into a global technocracy, most recently here from page 8 of iamback's posts. Technocracy means a world controlled from the top-down, including for example Smart Meters in the home so that even they can monitor and shut off your appliances from the central command station.

P.S. Anyone on the lookout for something I might be working on should note the post I made in the Skycoin thread.

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April 21, 2015, 03:50:42 AM
 #1248

...

coinits

I have been feeling that "The End Is Nigh" since Jimmy Carter (young people Google that name).

IMO, something very bad will happen, probably "relatively soon", but I have given up trying to time this.  Also, I have no idea what the trigger will be (a debt default perhaps, a sudden war maybe, a big attack glitch/internet attack, a "bolt from the blue", a financial trigger, etc.).

Dates back to Nixon and before that even.    The reason its got this far is nixon both devalued and allowed China into the trade system, Japan and Saudi Arabia all support the Dollar system, crucial exporters to the world    
Our view is to judge USA alone as it is most visible and its political deficit as likely to fail but what has happened is massive support from all around the world, of course China is much bigger so could this current 'failing system' continue for 20 years.   I do believe its broken but also usa is a minor part of the world production now so I think this is how it is possible to both broken and continue so long as others will it.   If China was capitalist not communist based I dont think they would be as biased to external elements like they are but it suits their enpowered elite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-g2iGskFPE
Old video before my time but pretty much refering to the same thing, that this deficit spending should not or could not continue, in 1965 and now fifty years later he was both right and wrong I guess

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rpietila
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April 21, 2015, 06:43:40 AM
 #1249

"order" is what emerges automatically

the top-down perversion of the natural order is "cancer"

"chaos" happens when order is replaced by cancer, which dies - it will soon become "order" again


(I think nature can more accurately be called "orderly" than "chaotic" yet pundits use these words interchangeably to mean the same thing)

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April 21, 2015, 11:05:46 AM
 #1250

rpietila, I am referring to a mathematical definition of entropy where order is low entropy and disorder (chaos) is high entropy. What you are referring to is probably resiliency, fitness, and Taleb's Antifragility concept, which is maximized with higher entropy (contrary to CoinCube's assertions that chaotic systems don't converge, which is precisely why they are resilient, because the world is not convergent on a few top-down possibilities but rather a smorgasbord of divergent paths).

P.S. Something poignant from Armstrong:

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2015/04/21/how-banks-wiped-out-eastern-europeans/

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April 21, 2015, 10:03:06 PM
Last edit: April 21, 2015, 10:31:14 PM by TPTB_need_war
 #1251

Please re-read my upthread post with my dates and predictions for the upcoming Economic Devastation. I made significant edits to that post.



P.S. CoinCube, I am trying to push your thread over the 100,000 'reads' (really views) milestone before I depart.

P.S.S. Yesterday evening on rolling hill terrain, I ran a 9 min. mile, rested an hour, then ran an 8 min. mile, followed by 4 x 150 meter sprints, followed by 20 minutes of aggressive basketball. An 8 min. mile is not really great for a guy that ran in the mid 4s min. mile in high school on a flat track (and sub-5 min. on hilly terrain), but at age 50 (in June) on hilly terrain and battling to recover from Multiple Sclerosis I think it is a noteworthy milestone. I used to be able to get under 6 min. mile until I got sick in 2006, even I wasn't training enough nor in great running shape. So the 8 min. mile is noteworthy only because of coming down from very slow 10+ min. mile as I have been treating my MS since start of April with high dose vitamin D3.

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April 22, 2015, 12:31:51 AM
Last edit: May 03, 2015, 09:11:36 PM by CoinCube
 #1252

What you are referring to is probably resiliency, fitness, and Taleb's Antifragility concept.

Taleb's Antifragility Concept  Grin



Edit: For those who never saw the movie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oAv-6i6iMI

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April 22, 2015, 01:36:48 AM
Last edit: April 22, 2015, 02:03:24 AM by STT
 #1253

"order" is what emerges automatically

the top-down perversion of the natural order is "cancer"

"chaos" happens when order is replaced by cancer, which dies - it will soon become "order" again


(I think nature can more accurately be called "orderly" than "chaotic" yet pundits use these words interchangeably to mean the same thing)
Is chaos theory not part of natural order, also I think extremes can bare resemblance.    


Quote
Top-down systems are inherently fragile because they overcommit to egregious error

I agree with that and and capitalism by its nature is far more segmented then what we currently have which is basically centrally determined capital worth.   Large parts of society still favour a more central solution to problems, with less freedom for individual elements.   Whether it works or not, its more prone to failure

Quote
Porsche eventually controlled a 42.6 percent block of VW shares (and with options to purchase another 31.5 percent).

The problem was that these 31.5% did not really exist they were naked options sold by wall street.
Porsche did not have to declare their accumulation of VW shares I think was the main problem.  No doubt some trickery was used against them also but if open disclosure had occurred in the market as they got into larger amounts of VW then the system should have worked ok without the spike occurring.  I dont blame Porsche but sometimes just because you can doesnt mean you should

Quote
Debt-based systems are used to enslave the vulnerable majority.
We dont have debt prisons anymore, the danger is to the creditor mostly.  The big risk now is national level of debt or perhaps student debt which isnt a properly market based or dissolvable in bankruptcy because of its relation to government.  USA keeps raising the cost to exit their national tax as a foreign citizen, I think that kinda relates as at some point the cost may be so high it means the average person could never leave

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April 22, 2015, 01:56:59 AM
Last edit: April 22, 2015, 03:37:39 AM by CoinCube
 #1254

contrary to CoinCube's assertions that chaotic systems don't converge

I showed that that in a system without hierarchial structure failure to converge to a fitness landscape will occur if entropy exceeds an critical level. I did so with a simplified biological model where this result can be shown definitively and mathamatically. The same model shows a lack entropy will also result in a failure to converge and that increasing entropy will increase the rate of convergence until an inflection point is reached. Pushing entropy beyond this inflection point will slow convergence. Beyond the error threshold the system won't converge at all.

You have countered that this model is not applicaple to real human societies which are obviously far more complex than simple nuclaic acid chains. You also countered that such extreme entropy will never occur in human societies since we naturally self organize to follow leaders (thought leaders, religious leaders, politicians, gang leaders, warlords, ect).

The applicability of the model is a fair challenge. However, I see little reason to think that the same general rules do not apply to our more complex society. You correctly pointed out that there is an asymmetry of systemic risk today with the risk of collectivism far exceeding the risks of individualism. I agree, however, the reason our current system is dangerous is not because it is excessivly rigid. A system that was mearly excessivly ordered would still eventually (if very slowly) converge on optimal outcomes. The system poises a systemic risk because it is grossly unsustainable.

The true risks arise from possibility of complete systemic collapse. This raises the specter of the Mad Max scenario. It is possible that an unstable order will breakdown so completly that entropy will rise uncontrollable and rapidly. Our society (like the simple biological model) can also exceed an error threshold. This occurs when knowledge is systemically destroyed rather than created. Think worldwide loss of electricity, nulcear holocaust, survival of the fittest with mass starvation. These are all extreme entropy scenarios where knowledge would be systemically lost.  

"chaos" happens when order is replaced by cancer, which dies - it will soon become "order" again

I would agree with this and add to it that order becomes cancer the moment it becomes unsustainable and incapable of self correcting. Chaos is the risk that arises from the inevitable death of the cancer.

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April 22, 2015, 10:24:32 AM
 #1255

well if you read the george soros crises of global capitalism you can figure out the failures in the ideas of peoples economies its tha failabilaty of ideas of long term that makes the economics beeng so diff to understand and finance of countries the bit coin does not changes that even can be a bit more instable by the lack of corrections on the coin value but i mean the economy of countries and global capitalism also dependes on the east that its very degrading ideas on gathering money form low quality products not good copied form indusrtry like japan , ( japan may fail sometimes but the scar tissue created after 2second world war makes them the most relaible idea of capitalism and porsper like usa and eurpoe conected

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April 22, 2015, 03:28:48 PM
 #1256

well if you read the george soros crises of global capitalism you can figure out the failures in the ideas of peoples economies its tha failabilaty of ideas of long term that makes the economics beeng so diff to understand and finance of countries the bit coin does not changes that even can be a bit more instable by the lack of corrections on the coin value but i mean the economy of countries and global capitalism also dependes on the east that its very degrading ideas on gathering money form low quality products not good copied form indusrtry like japan , ( japan may fail sometimes but the scar tissue created after 2second world war makes them the most relaible idea of capitalism and porsper like usa and eurpoe conected

I refuse to read anything from that fucking piece of shit. He is a traitor to Jews because he worked for the fucking Nazis. Fuck George Soros and his Libtard Commie Agenda. He is a blight on humanity.

Jump you fuckers! | The thing about smart motherfuckers is they sound like crazy motherfuckers to dumb motherfuckers. | My sig space for rent for 0.01 btc per week.
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April 22, 2015, 05:12:56 PM
 #1257

...

+ a friggin billion, coinits

George Soros has much to answer for despite being a smart trader.  He has a very serious ethics problem, with a lack of of empathy (despite some "words"), I believe they would call him a sociopath.

I winder what other filthy skeletons he has in his closet.

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April 22, 2015, 06:11:31 PM
Last edit: April 22, 2015, 08:37:33 PM by TPTB_need_war
 #1258

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Adam Smith’s Invisible Hand explained with simple math; why our society is insane
Date:    Wed, April 22, 2015 2:48 pm
To:      "Armstrong Economics" <armstrongeconomics@gmail.com>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


CoinCube,

We need to have this discussion on a mathematical level, so that you can have an epiphany. I will now irrefutably destroy all rational basis for your political philosophy.


Perhaps you were just being humorous, but that fiery imagery is the antithesis of the concept of Antifragility.

Antifragility has nothing to do with power, strength, nor any controllable attributes.

Antifragility is about the ability of autonomous systems to fit(ness) to a plurality of orthogonal (a.k.a. divergent or multifurcating) paths that always exist in reality, because the autonomous actors have degrees-of-freedom with which to follow divergent paths. For example tying shoelaces together forsakes the degrees-of-freedom to run, and can at best hobble or hop.

Whereas, top-down controlled systems (such as collectivized governance) remove degrees-of-freedom—that is have lower entropy (a.k.a. more order per the physicists' and mathematicians' definition of order)—and thus can't adapt to a plurality of divergent paths, instead spiraling into (single-minded) self-reinforcing “over commitment to egregious error”. Mathematically the error is the aggregate (such as the root mean square of the) distance of the plurality of paths from what they would have been if autonomous. Note that the ability to top-down control others is mathematically coupled to the ability to top-down create this error! Profound. Read that over and over again until the significance is fully appreciated.

You even cited my noteworthy contribution on this topic as follows.

TPTB where we often seem to diverge is in the area of coercion. In my opinion some of the very best of your writings was in your discussion on freedom of action.  

Quote from: Anonymint
The Rise of Knowledge
Energy of Knowledge

In theoretical terms, we can say that software production has a very high degrees-of-freedom, compared to hardware production. In science, degrees-of-freedom can be equivalent to potential energy. Thus software has orders-of-magnitude more potential energy than the production with hard resources or manual labor.

Imagine a vehicle without a reverse gear, it has one less degree-of-freedom, thus it has to go around the block in order to go in reverse, thus consuming more energy and which is the same as noting it had less potential energy to contribute.
...

Visualize an object held in the center of a large sphere with springs attached to the object in numerous directions to the inside wall of the sphere. These springs oppose movement of the object in numerous directions, and must be removed in order to lower the friction and increase the degrees-of-freedom of the movement of the object. With increased degrees-of-freedom, less work is required to produce a diversity of configurations (i.e. movements, or analogously new features in software), thus less power to produce them faster. And the configuration of the subject matter which results from the work, thus decays (i.e. becomes unfit slower), because the resistance forces are smaller.

Requiring less work, to produce more of what is needed and faster, with a greater longevity of fitness, is thus a form of potential energy. Think about the term “fitness”-- it means how efficiently does our system adapt to new configurations. Potential energy is fitness.




contrary to CoinCube's assertions that chaotic systems don't converge

I showed that that in a system without hierarchial structure failure to converge to a fitness landscape will occur if entropy exceeds an critical level. I did so with a simplified biological model where this result can be shown definitively and mathamatically. The same model shows a lack entropy will also result in a failure to converge and that increasing entropy will increase the rate of convergence until an inflection point is reached. Pushing entropy beyond this inflection point will slow convergence. Beyond the error threshold the system won't converge at all.

If I recall correctly the research you have cited at the above quoted link, it models the mutation rate in a changing environment to detect whether the replicating species can converge on ideal fitness to the environment. If the error rate of mutation is too high—that is if the random mutations are too great or numerous—the replicating species fails to attain fitness to environment and instead diverges (presumably to extinction).

You have countered that this model is not applicaple to real human societies which are obviously far more complex than simple nuclaic acid chains. You also countered that such extreme entropy will never occur in human societies since we naturally self organize to follow leaders (thought leaders, religious leaders, politicians, gang leaders, warlords, ect).

The applicability of the model is a fair challenge. However, I see little reason to think that the same general rules do not apply to our more complex society.

That “sparkling academic cathedral” nonsense research above makes two crucial assumptions which refute its ability to model any real world conditions.

1. The assumption that ‘mutation’ can be defined and measured.

2. The assumption that ‘fitness’ can be defined and measured.

In real life, we have no way to discern which actions made by autonomous actors are mutations from some idealized actions. In other words, we have no means of knowing which of smorgasbord plurality of autonomous actions being done today are providing fitness. Moreover, we have no way of discerning nor measuring fitness. All we can do is cherry pick top-down goals and erroneously (lies to our fucking Marxist selves!) declare those as targets for fitness, e.g. War on Drugs, War on Poverty, War on Corruption, War on Financial Crimes, War on Terrorism, War on Human Trafficking, etc.. But as I explained in the prior section about Antifragility above, all forms of top-down control increase the over commitment to egregious error, because by definition they can not autonomously fit the plurality of circumstances that autonomous actors experience.

Your research constructs the strawman that if we could define and measure what is mutation and fitness, then we could identify a threshold rate of mutation (deviation)—that is the threshold entropy of the system—which would not converge on fitness. But this is nonsense because we can not define nor measure those terms in the real world. Nature converges towards fitness otherwise we would be extinct and/or not progressing technologically.

This is precisely Adam Smith's Invisible Hand. Now I have mathematically defined it.

You correctly pointed out that there is an asymmetry of systemic risk today with the risk of collectivism far exceeding the risks of individualism. I agree, however, the reason our current system is dangerous is not because it is excessivly rigid. A system that was mearly excessivly ordered would still eventually (if very slowly) converge on optimal outcomes. The system poises a systemic risk because it is grossly unsustainable.

The danger is because the top-down systems over commit to the aggregate error in a self-reinforcing spiral that will kill the host. The only reason the host doesn't die is because autonomous actors find frontiers to escape the top-down control.

True that error often manifests itself in terms of exhausting resources.

The true risks arise from possibility of complete systemic collapse. This raises the specter of the Mad Max scenario. It is possible that an unstable order will breakdown so completly that entropy will rise uncontrollable and rapidly. Our society (like the simple biological model) can also exceed an error threshold. This occurs when knowledge is systemically destroyed rather than created. Think worldwide loss of electricity, nulcear holocaust, survival of the fittest with mass starvation. These are all extreme entropy scenarios where knowledge would be systemically lost.

Agreed that the end game of the self-reinforcing accumulation of error can reach a breaking point and waterfall event into reversal of quality of life that renders autonomous actors unable to act in their best interests in terms of annealing fitness and can plunge into a Dark Age.

This happens because the autonomous actors in the system were unable to find sufficient frontiers to escape the top-down control.

For example imagine myself having to expend all my energy and time just to forage for food and no computer and internet to maximize my mental productivity and efficacy.

This is precisely why I am working feverishly towards technological frontiers for humanity.

However, it is mathematically incorrect to characterize such collapse as a high level of entropy. When all the humans are essentially in survival, subsistence mode, the entropy has been drastically reduced because this a reversion in specialization (a.k.a. maximum division-of-labor) and thus the information content has been radically lowered and they are all basically doing the less specialized activities. For example, you would reduce a significant portion of my current knowledge base inapplicable in an environment where I had to forage for food all day. I do not have extensive expertise nor experience in foraging.

A Dark Age is particularly dangerous because modern humans are not adapted and can't adapt quickly to the lifestyle of yore.
  
"chaos" happens when order is replaced by cancer, which dies - it will soon become "order" again

I would agree with this and add to it that order becomes cancer the moment it becomes unsustainable and incapable of self correcting. Chaos is the risk that arises from the inevitable death of the cancer.

Order is high entropy which means decentralized leadership by a smorgasbord, plurality of autonomous actors and small groups (communities).

Large scale collectivized top-down control is cancer. (Individual or free market groups top-down control is decentralized leadership).

Both of you are introducing confusion about the meaning of chaos.

What you really mean to say is if top-down control is killing the host, then order becomes too high and the autonomous actors all end of scavenging for food and unable to anneal the system with knowledge production.

An English definition of chaos relates it to confusion and a very high level of disorder. Whereas, Chaos Theory is the study of how the real world is really a non-linear system of autonomous surprises. Fundamentally this is because for example no entity could possibly measure everything in real-time because the speed-of-light is not infinite thus the signal could not travel from the autonomous event to the single observer in infinitesimal time.

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April 22, 2015, 07:20:21 PM
 #1259

gold and BTC. The bottoms are still to come below $1000 and $150 respectively.

My monkey actually agrees with you.  I am reluctant to commit to a short, despite his lengthy history of being the only monkey left standing; nevertheless, the monkey has kept me from holding base position with positive delta in either Au or BTC for quite some time now.  (In general I use a leverage-space trading model, in which my base position delta factor reflects secular trend assessment.)

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.  Give a man a Poisson distribution and he eats at random times independent of one another, at a constant known rate.
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April 22, 2015, 07:22:17 PM
Last edit: April 22, 2015, 07:39:45 PM by thaaanos
 #1260

I would agree if fitness is the only requirement.
but it is not there is also the requirement of efficiency, and for that the only path is growth.
Shrimps have more deggrees of freedom but that will not help them when the whale scoops them.
shrimps have greater degree of freedom but but whales outlive them by far.
Your assumption is that the agents are immutable, but they are not, they have a production cycle, that accumulates entropy within, and lead to death of the agent, the number of cycles an agent can undergo is fixed therefore efficiency in the cycle is paramount to longevity (ie in biological systems the number of heartbeats is fixed, from a single cell -in vitro- up to the whale). That efficiency can only be achieved with growth and scaling up, which of course limits degrees of freedom and can cause extinction events.

So in the end do you accept that agents are systems that are threatened by internal entropy accumulation or not?

of course you cannot because those agents are made of people and there is no entropy insulator to protect agents by the intra and inter peoples entropy.

So agents in the end are living systems, and
1 atomicaly they die so in order to achieve survival of the solution they need to propagate somehow, so mutation comes into play and coincubes argument holds
2 growth and therefore limit in DofF is needed to cope to the internal entropy accumulation, unless of course you can show another way

So for all purposes either by collectivation or by atomic growth a limit in Degrees of freedom cannot be escaped for living systems
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