Re: Mining pools list

[organofcorti]

@ mo_eng1 please delete your post. i know you're just trying to be funny but I'd prefer if you kept to the topic.

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[neutraLTC]

Pool:                        <BTC.com>
Website:                   <https://pool.btc.com>
Proxy:                      No
Generation address:  3NA8hsjfdgVkmmVS9moHmkZsVCoLxUkvvv
Coinbase signature:  ���X/BTC.COM/��mmvP��q�}�r/��0!�8b��t�_�O1�#�
!kv�h�
Payout method:        FPPS (Full PPS)
Fee:                        4% fee
Pay Tx Reward:        YES
Vardiff:                    User defined
Local Work:             stratum
Pay Orphans:           Yes
Min Withdrawal:       5000 satoshi
Merge Mining:          YES

Done! Sorry it took so long, no time to log in this week. Thanks for messaging me to let me know.

OK! Thank you for adding us! Perhaps you can also add our new settlement mode as well? It's called Full PPS or FPPS.

The Full Pay-per-Share (FPPS) approach, created by BTC.com team, aims to benefit miners from the high transaction fee. It will calculate a standard transaction fee within a certain period，add it into the block rewards (12.5 BTC every block for now) and then distribute the whole to miners according to PPS mode.
This method keeps advantages of PPS and pay more to miners by sharing the transaction fee.

[kano]

...
The Full Pay-per-Share (FPPS) approach, created by BTC.com team, aims to benefit miners from the high transaction fee. It will calculate a standard transaction fee within a certain period，add it into the block rewards (12.5 BTC every block for now) and then distribute the whole to miners according to PPS mode.
This method keeps advantages of PPS and pay more to miners by sharing the transaction fee.

Well, you are still "saying" you are charging a 4% fee, 4 times higher than some PPLNS pools - so your reply is at best misleading.

It is also false, since as you say (marked in bold) you are paying PPS at the moment - so at the moment that's at least a 10% fee, not a 4% fee.

You have also directly entered into the extremely risky area of high PPS reward.
Meni Rosenfeld has a document about that ... you should read up about it: https://bitcoil.co.il/pool_analysis.pdf

[neutraLTC]

...
The Full Pay-per-Share (FPPS) approach, created by BTC.com team, aims to benefit miners from the high transaction fee. It will calculate a standard transaction fee within a certain period，add it into the block rewards (12.5 BTC every block for now) and then distribute the whole to miners according to PPS mode.
This method keeps advantages of PPS and pay more to miners by sharing the transaction fee.

Well, you are still "saying" you are charging a 4% fee, 4 times higher than some PPLNS pools - so your reply is at best misleading.

It is also false, since as you say (marked in bold) you are paying PPS at the moment - so at the moment that's at least a 10% fee, not a 4% fee.

You have also directly entered into the extremely risky area of high PPS reward.
Meni Rosenfeld has a document about that ... you should read up about it: https://bitcoil.co.il/pool_analysis.pdf

Hey Kano,

Thanks for the feedback although I seem to be a bit confused by it. Where did I mention PPLNS? We're not a PPLNS pool.

This is how FPPS works:

profit = block_reward(current is 12.5 BTC) + tx_fee

right now, tx fee's amount to about 11.46%, so our pool users profits are about 107.46%

[organofcorti]

Pool:                        <BTC.com>
Website:                   <https://pool.btc.com>
Proxy:                      No
Generation address:  3NA8hsjfdgVkmmVS9moHmkZsVCoLxUkvvv
Coinbase signature:  ���X/BTC.COM/��mmvP��q�}�r/��0!�8b��t�_�O1�#�
!kv�h�
Payout method:        FPPS (Full PPS)
Fee:                        4% fee
Pay Tx Reward:        YES
Vardiff:                    User defined
Local Work:             stratum
Pay Orphans:           Yes
Min Withdrawal:       5000 satoshi
Merge Mining:          YES

Done! Sorry it took so long, no time to log in this week. Thanks for messaging me to let me know.

OK! Thank you for adding us! Perhaps you can also add our new settlement mode as well? It's called Full PPS or FPPS.

The Full Pay-per-Share (FPPS) approach, created by BTC.com team, aims to benefit miners from the high transaction fee. It will calculate a standard transaction fee within a certain period，add it into the block rewards (12.5 BTC every block for now) and then distribute the whole to miners according to PPS mode.
This method keeps advantages of PPS and pay more to miners by sharing the transaction fee.

As far as I can tell, this is PPS with smoothed tx fee, yes? Great idea, but I don't think it's new enough to warrant a new name. Also "Full-Pay-Per-Share" is misleading when PPS is the canonical method.

I've mentioned in the appropriate column that you pay the tx fee, but can still put you in with the PPS variant pools if you like.

Good luck!

[neutraLTC]

Pool:                        <BTC.com>
Website:                   <https://pool.btc.com>
Proxy:                      No
Generation address:  3NA8hsjfdgVkmmVS9moHmkZsVCoLxUkvvv
Coinbase signature:  ���X/BTC.COM/��mmvP��q�}�r/��0!�8b��t�_�O1�#�
!kv�h�
Payout method:        FPPS (Full PPS)
Fee:                        4% fee
Pay Tx Reward:        YES
Vardiff:                    User defined
Local Work:             stratum
Pay Orphans:           Yes
Min Withdrawal:       5000 satoshi
Merge Mining:          YES

Done! Sorry it took so long, no time to log in this week. Thanks for messaging me to let me know.

OK! Thank you for adding us! Perhaps you can also add our new settlement mode as well? It's called Full PPS or FPPS.

The Full Pay-per-Share (FPPS) approach, created by BTC.com team, aims to benefit miners from the high transaction fee. It will calculate a standard transaction fee within a certain period，add it into the block rewards (12.5 BTC every block for now) and then distribute the whole to miners according to PPS mode.
This method keeps advantages of PPS and pay more to miners by sharing the transaction fee.

As far as I can tell, this is PPS with smoothed tx fee, yes? Great idea, but I don't think it's new enough to warrant a new name. Also "Full-Pay-Per-Share" is misleading when PPS is the canonical method.

I've mentioned in the appropriate column that you pay the tx fee, but can still put you in with the PPS variant pools if you like.

Good luck!

Yep that's it! Sure, I guess it doesn't necessarily warrant a new name

Sure put us in with the PPS variant pools.

Thank you both

[-ck]

Hi OOC. Got an addition for you, and some fee pay scheme for your interest

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1876330.0

Pool:                      ckpool.org
Website:                 http://ckpool.org
Proxy:                    No
Generation address:  14BMjogz69qe8hk9thyzbmR5pg34mVKB1e
Coinbase signature: ckpool.org
Payout method:        SPLNS (Score per last N shares, see pool thread above for full details)
Fee:                        0.5%
Pay Tx Reward:        Yes
Vardiff:                   18 SPM
Local Work:             Stratum
Pay Orphans:           No
Min Withdrawal:       0.0000546 BTC
Merge Mining:          No

SPLNS HERP DERP is related to the now defunct ozcoin's interpretation of my original payscheme idea they called pay on target, resuscitated now but extrapolated to PPLNS instead of PPS.

[kano]

Needs an analysis of the effect of the payout scheme

Some basics:

It produces a sizeable variance due to the PoT idea.

The share aging+PoT would give the equivalent of a block finders fee if the reward was paid after the block was found,
since the highest difficulty share will be the block share, and it will be effectively the newest (or almost newest) share found.
However, since the payout is determined before the 'last' shares are received, using a coinbase payout, not a normal payout, the block finding share isn't rewarded in the block payout, but I guess much later in the next block, expected on average 1Nd later, and thus always expected to be rewarded quite poorly.
i.e. the shares that are rewarded the best are those just under being a block, not those that are blocks. Those that are blocks lose one payout due to the coinbase payout.

These shares sent to the pool after the work that was used to find the block was sent, but using the same work or still in the same block of the found block, would need special rules to be paid fairly, since they are ignored in the coinbase payout (about 2.5% of shares)

Meanwhile, the other 'standard' pool that uses a coinbase payout is Eligius, which suffered from a very high orphan rate.
That could have been because of poor code, using a coinbase payout, or both.

Edit: OK, having thought more about it, that above actually points out the failure with this Scoring+PoT payout system using a coinbase payout.
You can 'hop' it by changing your payout address each time a block is found.
The coinbase block payout is calculated prior to the block being found, so it will overpay all shares up to the last work used to find the block, and not pay any shares submitted after the last work change before the block is found i.e. the person who finds the block will be underpaid the most.
Thus if you switch your payout address each time a block is found (unless you find the block) you would be overpaid on the previous address.
The pool will have to actually reverse that overpay in each following block, so if you are no longer mining to your previous address, that reverse can't be done.

Edit2: the same is probably true of p2pool except the 'underpay' is never corrected and there is only one share underpaid: the blockfinder share that isn't rewarded in the block found, and that share doesn't have an oversized reward compared to other shares, unlike PoT does.

[organofcorti]

Hi OOC. Got an addition for you, and some fee pay scheme for your interest

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1876330.0

Pool:                      ckpool.org
Website:                 http://ckpool.org
Proxy:                    No
Generation address:  14BMjogz69qe8hk9thyzbmR5pg34mVKB1e
Coinbase signature: ckpool.org
Payout method:        SPLNS (Score per last N shares, see pool thread above for full details)
Fee:                        0.5%
Pay Tx Reward:        Yes
Vardiff:                   18 SPM
Local Work:             Stratum
Pay Orphans:           No
Min Withdrawal:       0.0000546 BTC
Merge Mining:          No

SPLNS HERP DERP is related to the now defunct ozcoin's interpretation of my original payscheme idea they called pay on target, resuscitated now but extrapolated to PPLNS instead of PPS.

Sorry it took so long to get it updated. After this I'll have a bit more time to curate the thread.

The reward method sounds fun - any big winners yet?

[-ck]

Sorry it took so long to get it updated. After this I'll have a bit more time to curate the thread.

The reward method sounds fun - any big winners yet?

No problem, was worried you might have abandoned bitcoin; we still need you here Interesting to hear about your alternate life/real world interests/involvements. The mathematics behind the reward is something we all discussed at length when PoT first came out and I just removed the dangerous  PPS element from it.

No winners yet since no blocks found yet

[Minor Miner]

Organ;
Long time no see/speak/text.
Quick question for you.   Since the fees are now 15-30% of the block reward, are there any pools that "keep" the fees for themselves and only split the 12.5 block reward with the miners?

[kano]

Organ;
Long time no see/speak/text.
Quick question for you.   Since the fees are now 15-30% of the block reward, are there any pools that "keep" the fees for themselves and only split the 12.5 block reward with the miners?

There are pools that keep the transaction fees and charge multiple fees also (base fee, payout fees)
In general, this is how most PPS pools work.
Stay away from PPS pools

Antpool PPLNS keeps the txn fees and no idea what other fees they charge getting your BTC from them.

[DrHaribo]

People see "zero fee" and they believe it.

[organofcorti]

Organ;
Long time no see/speak/text.
Quick question for you.   Since the fees are now 15-30% of the block reward, are there any pools that "keep" the fees for themselves and only split the 12.5 block reward with the miners?

Yes, from memory I think Kano's right - Antpool and PPS pools generally - although there's a recent PPS pool that includes tx fees.

[Minor Miner]

So how much is antpool really taking from people for their free mining?
20% recently but over time it is still a significant proportion correct?
Strange they have half the network, does no one know this or notice?

[kano]

Organ;
Long time no see/speak/text.
Quick question for you.   Since the fees are now 15-30% of the block reward, are there any pools that "keep" the fees for themselves and only split the 12.5 block reward with the miners?

Yes, from memory I think Kano's right - Antpool and PPS pools generally - although there's a recent PPS pool that includes tx fees.

Yeah I hid that 'most' word in there on porpoise

[organofcorti]

So how much is antpool really taking from people for their free mining?
20% recently but over time it is still a significant proportion correct?
Strange they have half the network, does no one know this or notice?

I'll have some time soon, I'll let you know what I find out.

[Minor Miner]

So how much is antpool really taking from people for their free mining?
20% recently but over time it is still a significant proportion correct?
Strange they have half the network, does no one know this or notice?

I'll have some time soon, I'll let you know what I find out.

I kind of ballparked it.   It is a ton of cash for "engineers' bonuses".   But, the question you cannot answer is "why do people mine there if they are losing 10-20% of what they should receive"?

Are they just ignorant?

[jonnybravo0311]

Ignorance.  Plain and simple.

Every miner sold by Bitmain has AntPool setup by default.  Lots of the people buying boatloads of hardware really have no clue - they're just investors trying to make a buck.  They leave the settings as they are.

Another reason why people don't really notice is because all of those online calculators calculate earnings based on block reward only.  None of them include transaction fees.  Believe me, if those investors saw losses of up to 20% of their earnings, they'd jump ship in a heartbeat.

A final reason is the "bigger is better" mentality.  There certainly is some truth behind that statement - at least from the point of view of variance.  The larger the pool, the less variance it suffers.  Investors like predictability .

[kano]

Please, i will like to ask a question, i'm new on this platform, I will like to have your views on bitcoinclub, i wanna start mining via the organization.
 hope  this is the right place

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