Intellectual Property - In All Fairness!

[FirstAscent]

It's not a behavior that I would engage in, nor would I support those who engage in it. Are you willing to kill someone for finning a shark?

Is that your solution to shark finning? Kill those who engage in it? It's not mine, but to each his own, I guess. I suppose if you claim someone sneaked onto your property and cut off the legs of your dog, I could then immediately ask you if you were willing to kill the guy who did it, but I don't really see how that furthers the conversation.

I meant that I responded to your question "are you then its owner": "yes", before moving on and posing my own. Very often you neglect to answer a question or respond to a point (as you just did) and skip right on to your next absurdity.

Rather than randomly mention hypothetical absurdities, continue with this conversation, and preferably without jumping to killing people right from the get go.

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[BitterTea]

It's not a behavior that I would engage in, nor would I support those who engage in it. Are you willing to kill someone for finning a shark?

Is that your solution to shark finning? Kill those who engage in it? It's not mine, but to each his own, I guess. I suppose if you claim someone sneaked onto your property and cut off the legs of your dog, I could then immediately ask you if you were willing to kill the guy who did it, but I don't really see how that furthers the conversation.

I meant that I responded to your question "are you then its owner": "yes", before moving on and posing my own. Very often you neglect to answer a question or respond to a point (as you just did) and skip right on to your next absurdity.

Rather than randomly mention hypothetical absurdities, continue with this conversation, and preferably without jumping to killing people right from the get go.

A death sentence is the logical conclusion of your statist system. Man fins shark: fine. Refuses to pay fine: arrest. Resists arrest: violence. Defends against violence: death.

Just because he was killed for using violence against an agent of the state doesn't change the fact that it was over the finning of a shark. Please defend or refute this conclusion.

[Rassah]

Out of curiosity, who is 'we'?

My family.

Who, in your family, paid for the dogs, cats and refrigerator?

Why is that relevant to intellectual property?

I'm trying to get a sense of the households in which hardcore libertarians live. It's not an unreasonable question.

My family is diverse in their views. Dad is more of a libertarian hippie, mom is more christian conservative, bro is ex military UFC fighter. Three dogs, two cats, in the end side of a townhouse compex. Huge three story house with plenty of space. Oh, also a fish aquarium and a newt. Parents both have backgrounds in biology, and love animals, so we've always had lots of pets. The house is a $600k+ one in a very upper-middleclass area, too. I moved out a long time ago, though, and live with my husband in our own house. No pets, partially because I'm allergic to cats, but mostly because we travel so much and have little time for them. I used to have a hedgehog though. Back in USSR we had one dog, one turtle, one bunny, two parakeets, one finch, one large fishtank, one small one, two hamsters, a white mouse, and a walking stick bug. All that in a medium sized 3 room apartment on the 8th floor.

Anything else that could help you form a more informed opinion?

[Rassah]

My family.

Is your family is entitled to torture the dogs and cats it bought?

Sure! But we don't do it because we love animals. (Except when we forget to walk them and they poor all over the kitchen)

Since you've already said you are OK with killing babies, I suppose it was silly to ask your position on torturing animals.

In terms of politics and society, you're advocating a type of society that will never be accepted.  Its a purely intellectual exercise.  Have no you interest in things that are likely to matter in the real world?

And you are delusional in believing that laws against neglecting/hurting kids, torturing animals, or stealing IP actually prevent those things from happening, when they are all done in private. You are also putting words in my mouth as well regarding that baby thing, btw. Specifically, I said that if YOU were to try to kill a baby, and neither I nor society at large cared about that baby, I wouldn't try to stop you. Key point you purposefully pretend to miss every time is the part about me actually caring.

[FirstAscent]

It's not a behavior that I would engage in, nor would I support those who engage in it. Are you willing to kill someone for finning a shark?

Is that your solution to shark finning? Kill those who engage in it? It's not mine, but to each his own, I guess. I suppose if you claim someone sneaked onto your property and cut off the legs of your dog, I could then immediately ask you if you were willing to kill the guy who did it, but I don't really see how that furthers the conversation.

I meant that I responded to your question "are you then its owner": "yes", before moving on and posing my own. Very often you neglect to answer a question or respond to a point (as you just did) and skip right on to your next absurdity.

Rather than randomly mention hypothetical absurdities, continue with this conversation, and preferably without jumping to killing people right from the get go.

A death sentence is the logical conclusion of your statist system. Man fins shark: fine. Refuses to pay fine: arrest. Resists arrest: violence. Defends against violence: death.

Just because he was killed for using violence against an agent of the state doesn't change the fact that it was over the finning of a shark. Please defend or refute this conclusion.

Until you demonstrate that your libertarian society guarantees no escalation will occur during the resolution of contract violations, lawsuits, and general property rights violations, I don't see the need to defend or refute the sad result of someone engaging in selfish, cruel, unproductive and damaging activities.

[FirstAscent]

Out of curiosity, who is 'we'?

My family.

Who, in your family, paid for the dogs, cats and refrigerator?

Why is that relevant to intellectual property?

I'm trying to get a sense of the households in which hardcore libertarians live. It's not an unreasonable question.

My family is diverse in their views. Dad is more of a libertarian hippie, mom is more christian conservative, bro is ex military UFC fighter. Three dogs, two cats, in the end side of a townhouse compex. Huge three story house with plenty of space. Oh, also a fish aquarium and a newt. Parents both have backgrounds in biology, and love animals, so we've always had lots of pets. The house is a $600k+ one in a very upper-middleclass area, too. I moved out a long time ago, though, and live with my husband in our own house. No pets, partially because I'm allergic to cats, but mostly because we travel so much and have little time for them. I used to have a hedgehog though. Back in USSR we had one dog, one turtle, one bunny, two parakeets, one finch, one large fishtank, one small one, two hamsters, a white mouse, and a walking stick bug. All that in a medium sized 3 room apartment on the 8th floor.

Thank you. Very interesting.

[BitterTea]

Until you demonstrate that your libertarian society guarantees no escalation will occur during the resolution of contract violations, lawsuits, and general property rights violations, I don't see the need to defend or refute the sad result of someone engaging in selfish, cruel, unproductive and damaging activities.

Going to take one from your playbook here...

So you support the killing of humans who fin sharks?

Horrible... horrible...

[FirstAscent]

So you support the killing of humans who fin sharks?

The honest truth? Any scumbag who makes a living slicing the dorsal fins off of sharks, and then tosses the sharks back into the water to die, and does this repeatedly, without remorse, all to make a buck, does not have my sympathy. If one day, said individual fell overboard into the water amidst a feeding frenzy of sharks, I would not shed a tear.

Honestly, would you? Or are you not entirely familiar with the process of shark finning?

[BitterTea]

So you support the killing of humans who fin sharks?

The honest truth? Any scumbag who makes a living slicing the dorsal fins off of sharks, and then tosses the sharks back into the water to die, and does this repeatedly, without remorse, all to make a buck, does not have my sympathy. If one day, said individual fell overboard into the water amidst a feeding frenzy of sharks, I would not shed a tear.

Honestly, would you? Or are you not entirely familiar with the process of shark finning?

I'm asking if you support the deliberate killing of a human for the act of shark finning.

I would not feel sorry for him if he died, but I do not support the deliberate use of violence, no.

[FirstAscent]

I'm asking if you support the deliberate killing of a human for the act of shark finning.

I support measures, regulations, treaties, etc. to prevent shark finning. I cannot claim to be completely aware of what jurisdictions exists where, but where the rules are clear, and individuals are caught, I support fines, and possibly arrest. Said shark finner has the opportunity to comply. I then support coercive force to get said shark finner to comply. His resistance is his choice. Since I wouldn't mourn him falling overboard into a feeding frenzy of sharks, it's unlikely that I would mourn his death if it occurred in another manner.

Consider the notion of living in your libertarian land. You run a dog kennel on your property. Some guy keeps coming onto your property and cuts the paws off of your dogs because, apparently, some culture believes their foot pads to have medicinal value. After about the fifth dog maiming, he's caught on video. Next night, you catch him red handed. But he escapes. Is not escalation and death possible in this scenario?

[BitterTea]

I'm asking if you support the deliberate killing of a human for the act of shark finning.

I support measures, regulations, treaties, etc. to prevent shark finning. I cannot claim to be completely aware of what jurisdictions exists where, but where the rules are clear, and individuals are caught, I support fines, and possibly arrest. Said shark finner has the opportunity to comply. I then support coercive force to get said shark finner to comply. His resistance is his choice. Since I wouldn't mourn him falling overboard into a feeding frenzy of sharks, it's unlikely that I would mourn his death if it occurred in another manner.

Consider the notion of living in your libertarian land. You run a dog kennel on your property. Some guy keeps coming onto your property and cuts the paws off of your dogs because, apparently, some culture believes their foot pads to have medicinal value. After about the fifth dog maiming, he's caught on video. Next night, you catch him red handed. But he escapes. Is not escalation and death possible in this scenario?

Thanks for explaining how you accept murder only if is preceded by attempted kidnapping and extortion.

In this scenario, he is infringing on my property. Attempting to defend my property with the minimum required force is justified. If he escalates the use of force, I would be justified in doing rhe same.

This has nothing to do with shark finning, unless someone already owns the sharks.

[Rassah]

So, have these measures, regulations, treaties, etc. of yours stopped shark finning? Drug trade? Illegal downloading?

[FirstAscent]

This has nothing to do with shark finning, unless someone already owns the sharks.

So an animal (a shark, dog, etc.) is accorded the right to different treatment depending on whether it is owned or not by the one mistreating the animal?

[FirstAscent]

So, have these measures, regulations, treaties, etc. of yours stopped shark finning? Drug trade? Illegal downloading?

Measures, regulations, etc. have been extraordinarily successful with regard to bringing back certain species from near extinction.

[Rassah]

So, have these measures, regulations, treaties, etc. of yours stopped shark finning? Drug trade? Illegal downloading?

Measures, regulations, etc. have been extraordinarily successful with regard to bringing back certain species from near extinction.

I guess that part is true

[BitterTea]

This has nothing to do with shark finning, unless someone already owns the sharks.

So an animal (a shark, dog, etc.) is accorded the right to different treatment depending on whether it is owned or not by the one mistreating the animal?

Yes. Can a shark or dog respect your rights? No, they don't know any better. I believe rights can only be afforded where reciprocal behavior is possible.

[Rassah]

This has nothing to do with shark finning, unless someone already owns the sharks.

So an animal (a shark, dog, etc.) is accorded the right to different treatment depending on whether it is owned or not by the one mistreating the animal?

The animals are not accorded any rights any more than an owned couch is accorded any rights...

[BitterTea]

So, have these measures, regulations, treaties, etc. of yours stopped shark finning? Drug trade? Illegal downloading?

Measures, regulations, etc. have been extraordinarily successful with regard to bringing back certain species from near extinction.

They've also been extraordinarily successful with regard to eradicating drugs, protecting the environment, curing disease, and bringing the world out of poverty...

[FirstAscent]

The animals are not accorded any rights any more than an owned couch is accorded any rights...

Well, in your idealized world, yes. But here in the real world, there are plenty of laws and regulations to ensure animals' safety, well being, survival, prevent abuse, etc. Not nearly enough, but as society matures, the trend is to increase the rights of animals, not decrease them. Read up on the subject. Your way of thinking is a step backwards.

[FirstAscent]

They've also been extraordinarily successful with regard to eradicating drugs, protecting the environment, curing disease, and bringing the world out of poverty...

In some cases, yes. Your idealized world has no track record at all with regard to the matters, to be honest. It's fun for you to speculate though.