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Author Topic: rpietila Wall Observer - the Quality TA Thread ;)  (Read 907169 times)
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AnonyMint
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April 04, 2014, 08:39:22 AM
Last edit: April 04, 2014, 09:07:30 AM by AnonyMint
 #2281

Past 30 days (click 30-day chart), the largest volume days are the down days. Also only 8 up days (1 neutral) out of 30.

http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/bitstampUSD.html

This might indicate selling pressure is greater than buying.

Fear is a stronger driving force than greed.. Take a look at recently 2008  to 2010 charts for eurusd or even usdjpy equities commodities.. All had higher accumulating volume since smart money always buys into fear. I do not like high volume up thrusts.. means unloading usually.

True but perhaps you missed my TA point, which is near-term the equilibrium might be lower because selling is dominating. Since the point of TA is to time the low. But only the market knows with 100% certainty when the selling is exhausted.

It is in the interest of longs to run the price up a little, unload or pull their bids, so as to cycle it lower and lower in order to accumulate at lower and lower prices. They can only do this for as long as selling pressure is sufficient. It helps them greatly if the longs are united, i.e. if only the whales are accumulating.

I see someone wants newbies to rush in:

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/04/02/bitcoin-price-to-1-million/


I for one have put AnonyMint on ignore and continue to watch the thread for insightful discussion. Perhaps more of you should do the former too? Smiley

Congratulations. Do you need a star on your forehead? Kindergarten is still in session.

It's a pretty standard narcissistic cry for attention. It's entertaining to watch an individual with a completely delusional sense of self worth and entitlement throw these temper tantrums because swarms of inferiors do not celebrate his obvious genius.

That spin attack is a textbook insecurity complex. I can't find tantrums in this thread. Who is delusional?

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April 04, 2014, 09:07:04 AM
 #2282


Which bitcoin entrepreneur doesn't ?
AnonyMint
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April 04, 2014, 09:08:33 AM
 #2283


But consider the timing and the publication source. It shows up at the first listing on Google when I search for "Bitcoin price" because I am trying to find out the current price. I am given the answer that it is going to 1 million. In the past days when I did that same search, I got very negative news articles at the top. As if someone is manipulating or cycling sentiment.

Maybe it is just my search foo or lack thereof. When I search "Bitcoin current price" then this is at top:

http://memeburn.com/2014/04/understanding-the-value-of-bitcoin-means-finding-the-right-balance/

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April 04, 2014, 09:26:32 AM
 #2284


But consider the timing and the publication source. It shows up at the first listing on Google when I search for "Bitcoin price" because I am trying to find out the current price. I am given the answer that it is going to 1 million. In the past days when I did that same search, I got very negative news articles at the top. As if someone is manipulating or cycling sentiment.

Maybe it is just my search foo or lack thereof. When I search "Bitcoin current price" then this is at top:

http://memeburn.com/2014/04/understanding-the-value-of-bitcoin-means-finding-the-right-balance/

I don't see anything special with the timing. There are optimist and pessimist articles on google news every day about bitcoin. I don't think this one was specifically put at the top of google to engineer some new bull run.
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April 04, 2014, 09:53:20 AM
 #2285


But consider the timing and the publication source. It shows up at the first listing on Google when I search for "Bitcoin price" because I am trying to find out the current price. I am given the answer that it is going to 1 million. In the past days when I did that same search, I got very negative news articles at the top. As if someone is manipulating or cycling sentiment.

Maybe it is just my search foo or lack thereof. When I search "Bitcoin current price" then this is at top:

http://memeburn.com/2014/04/understanding-the-value-of-bitcoin-means-finding-the-right-balance/

I don't see anything special with the timing. There are optimist and pessimist articles on google news every day about bitcoin. I don't think this one was specifically put at the top of google to engineer some new bull run.

I consistently saw negative articles while the price was being pushed down. I was searching "Bitcoin price" several times per day recently.

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April 04, 2014, 10:12:12 AM
 #2286

I consistently saw negative articles while the price was being pushed down. I was searching "Bitcoin price" several times per day recently.

Then it means we have bottomed  Cheesy

Or it means you were really looking hard for an excuse as to why we might be reversing despite your arguments Smiley
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April 04, 2014, 10:58:16 AM
 #2287

It wouldn't surprise me if bitcoin decided to break out of the twodimensional price-time scale into a completely different dimension right now. So many people expect it to fall and so many believe it to rise. Typical bitcoin behaviour is to completely ignore the beliefs of anyone, so I give it a 50% chance right now to break into a 3D chart. But what would the third dimension be? (add X-Files soundtrack here)

If your data pool is people on this forum, then yeah maybe 50/50. but the world outside still thinks that mt.gox broke the software lol (thats if they have heard of it at all)

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April 04, 2014, 11:08:21 AM
 #2288


Everything past is definite, everything future is probabilistic.  


No, there is no difference between the past and the future. Causality is not probabilistic, neither in the past nor in the future.

Einstein:

 "I do not believe in free will. Schopenhauer's words: 'Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wants,[Der Mensch kann wohl tun, was er will, aber er kann nicht wollen, was er will]' accompany me in all situations throughout my life and reconcile me with the actions of others, even if they are rather painful to me. This awareness of the lack of free will keeps me from taking myself and my fellow men too seriously as acting and deciding individuals, and from losing my temper." Schopenhauer's clearer, actual words were: "You can do what you will, but in any given moment of your life you can will only one definite thing and absolutely nothing other than that one thing." [Du kannst tun was du willst: aber du kannst in jedem gegebenen Augenblick deines Lebens nur ein Bestimmtes wollen und schlechterdings nichts anderes als dieses eine.]

I dunno why you brought causality into it. I'm 100% with nagarjan on that one, its his most fundamental thought...

Neither from itself nor from another,
Nor from both,
Nor without a cause,
Does anything whatever, anywhere arise.


This is nirwana, the non-world.

You ask why I brought causality? As soon as you ask 'why?', you want to know the cause of the effect.
And I answer: I brought causality because the world is either deterministic (causal) or it is probabilistic (noncausal).
In my opinion (as well as Diodorus, Spinoza, Hume, Schopenhauer et al.) the world is fully deterministic. The MWI QM interpretation is deterministic as well.

very clever Smiley i'm glad you answered still.

I'd say it boils down to *when* is deterministic, I agree that the world is deterministic at the instant it is being observed, when the wave function collapses. Everything is determined. I think what is to come is probabilistic, and i think the probability of any given outcome tends to zero the farther into the future we project (the probability of everything being exactly the same tends towards 1 the less time into the future we look).

I don't think it matters if we can see the cat is dead or alive, we are only one set of eyes. Each moment that passes since we put it in the box, the wave function collapses, and if the cat dies as a result, then the universe knows at the instant it happens.

[...philosophy of causality...]
Now bring that back to quality TA please.  My breath is bated.

I can't do TA as such, I can draw a line on a chart and point out classic 'signs' but I'm not convinced that helps me or anyone. It's interesting to read though.

I'd say that if all outcomes are possible (though some are less probable) and provided you are cool with this (i.e. your position is such that something improbable is tolerable to you) then you are set. For me, the two unlikely scenarios are bust or to da moon. If it goes to zero, i have lost what I can afford. If it goes to da moon, then I get to buy a castle. If it does what is most likely then I don't win big, but neither do I lose big.

"A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution" - Satoshi Nakamoto
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April 04, 2014, 11:17:16 AM
 #2289

I can't do TA as such, I can draw a line on a chart and point out classic 'signs' but I'm not convinced that helps me or anyone. It's interesting to read though.

Its just risk management. It can only work alongside a sound strategy. just like in a game of chess.

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April 04, 2014, 11:22:33 AM
 #2290

I can't do TA as such, I can draw a line on a chart and point out classic 'signs' but I'm not convinced that helps me or anyone. It's interesting to read though.

Its just risk management. It can only work alongside a sound strategy. just like in a game of chess.


Yes I see the reasoning behind it, It seems any attempt to time the market (for me) returns no better than a coin flip though.

I suppose in some way I do 'trade' (skim the run ups). I'm more of a macro risk manager though Smiley buy and HODL Wink

"A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution" - Satoshi Nakamoto
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April 04, 2014, 10:16:00 PM
Last edit: April 05, 2014, 12:33:31 PM by AnonyMint
 #2291

I come across as overly self-important. It is because I tried to warn about the dangers of Bitcoin (while being fair to also praise its virtues) and in the process I had to shout over a lot of hurt feelings. And this hardened my resolve. Sorry this is not overconfidence, it is uber confidence because it is based in fact checking not in wishful careless arbitrary dreaming. Because when I spend a year digging into the details of something, I make many key insights and discoveries. And you all do not know what I discovered technologically because I haven't revealed it. Why should I give you my secret recipes when in fact you would piss on them any way. The only way forward is to prove you wrong. Sorry this is not a desire to be a jerk. It is a desire to do what is best for mankind, a desire to get wealthy doing it, and a desire to build a bigger ecosystem with more people like you profiting and smiling.

Now on to the analysis...

Well if this is the bottom it is U shaped, not V, which is what I predicted upthread.

The price action seems to be very quiet, so not much to talk about from a TA perspective.

First a math point about relating adoption rate to price. Peter R confirmed upthread with a chart that proxies for adoption, N, are tracking price = N x N. And if adoption is growing by rate R per year, then it grows R x R rate in two years. Thus we can say that the annual rate of price increases is proportional to the biannual rate of adoption. You see when our Y axis is logarithmic (e.g. log 10 on chart Risto shows) then exponentiation becomes additive and thus linearly proportional.

So I've been FA thinking about why Bitcoin adoption is likely declining, i.e. as I showed a log-logistic curve fit.

As I explained in that linked post, the slope of the price increase was 0.33 before July 2011, and has been 0.09 since January 2012 until now. So it had already declined. The question is was the early period an aberration or part of the trend?

SlipperySlope had been fitting a logistic curve to Bitcoin's price, because technology which spreads out to the masses typically has that S shape of exponential adoption. The key factor is that logistic adoption rate (slope) increases until the midway point, i.e. at 50% of the adoption before decreasing. Whereas, log-logistic adoption rate (slope) is maximum at the start and is always declining. This is a very important distinction because logistic means we can expect Bitcoin's price rate of increase to accelerate, whereas log-logistic we can expect the rate of price appreciation to slow further (as it already did slowing from 0.33 to 0.09 after July 2011).

I gave the explanation that money is power-law distributed and thus we should expect the greatest serious network effects on adoption at the beginning because the power investors come in the earliest. The log-logistic (cumulative distribution function) curve corresponds to the power-law distribution.

I had an epiphany in my dream last night that there is a simpler explanation which also corresponds to the power-law distribution of money as follows.

"Most people who learn about Bitcoin, don't adopt it".

Why? Because it doesn't fulfill a general need. The need it fulfills is very specific to a white male, hate central banking demographic. It doesn't have fast transactions, doesn't have consumer protection, the money is difficult to secure, it is technically challenging to use, etc..

A consumer adopted item such as a washing machine has logistic adoption curve because every person who hears about wants it. Thus maximum word-of-mouth is reached at 50% of adoption. Whereas, for Bitcoin maximum rate of effectiveness of word-of-mouth was when only the correct demographic was listening back before July 2011. Now as Bitcoin tries to speak to the masses, they mostly don't care.

Thus if you want to build a Bitcoin killer altcoin, you simply make sure it is something every person will want to do.

I have experience doing such things, as I created an application that had 1 million users and 1% of the internet back in late 1990s. Before that I was involved with what became Corel Painter and I helped bring it to 1 million global units and also the first $million milestone in Japan. The key thing is I sought out that company, not them finding me. I have always been attracted to paradigm shift technology and thinking about how to make it easier for people and thus increase adoption rates.

My reputation doesn't matter. I won't be using it any way. What matters here is determining what is really going on. Because an investor without the correct interpretation of reality is destined to lose money.

If there was a black budget team who designed Bitcoin, it appears they may have failed in their analysis. It appears they have no way to get the masses interested. But let's see if that changes as offchain services and fiat masks such as Bitpay and Coinbase proliferate.

Put Coinbase and Bitpay together and you have both the consumer and the merchant, you don't need the block chain any more. Also the mining is already centralized. How much more obvious could it be?

And during this time our core development team and Foundation have been doing what to ameliorate this outcome? Meeting with the CIA and CFR.

And then I wake up to see this at the top of the Google search for "Bitcoin price":

http://gigaom.com/2014/04/04/this-week-in-bitcoin-the-push-to-get-the-currency-in-the-hands-of-the-consumer/

And so again I will challenge Risto according to our original focuses when we first met each other back in 2007. What are you doing about this? I know what I am doing. And you know I warned you about this outcome from Day 1 when you shouted to me that Bitcoin was becoming very important.

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April 04, 2014, 10:51:46 PM
 #2292

"Most people who learn about Bitcoin, don't adopt it".

Why? Because it doesn't fulfill a general need.

New technology almost never fills a general need. It creates a need in a place where no need previously existed, until society begins to reshape itself because the new technology has forced a space for itself.

Using a tired analogy, what need did the internet fill in society? We could shop in stores. We could send letters via fax and mail. We could call people over a telephone. There was no gaping "need" for access to generally useless information 24/7. We can only answer the question in retrospect.

What about social networking? Were Facebook and Twitter created to fulfill a societal need? Can you imagine trying to pitch twitter to the world? "Hey guys, you know how you really NEED and WANT to post 140 character messages online? Well now you can!"
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April 04, 2014, 11:05:05 PM
 #2293

"Most people who learn about Bitcoin, don't adopt it".

Why? Because it doesn't fulfill a general need.

New technology almost never fills a general need. It creates a need in a place where no need previously existed, until society begins to reshape itself because the new technology has forced a space for itself.

Using a tired analogy, what need did the internet fill in society? We could shop in stores. We could send letters via fax and mail. We could call people over a telephone. There was no gaping "need" for access to generally useless information 24/7. We can only answer the question in retrospect.

What about social networking? Were Facebook and Twitter created to fulfill a societal need? Can you imagine trying to pitch twitter to the world? "Hey guys, you know how you really NEED and WANT to post 140 character messages online? Well now you can!"

Notwithstanding whether I am correct or not, the key distinction in my mind is that nearly everyone who learns about a washing machine or smart phone, wants one. There are those who said, "I don't need that, I will stick with the hand washing or the feature phone", but this is just denial. Eventually they realize they were wrong as their neighbors are more productive. Whereas, the resistance to Bitcoin is justified, i.e. "why would I want that, I already have Paypal and I don't want the negatives of Bitcoin".

I am thinking about what advantage does Coinbase + Bitpay have over Paypal?  The key is that the consumer pays the fees instead of the merchant. Thus more merchants will prefer it. Why will customers prefer that?

Then I got to thinking. The problem with Paypal is there are too many competitors. The elite want to control this new digital money system. What if you combined Paypal + Bitpay! Then you can see the founder of Paypal is the main angel investor in Bitpay.

This is all about getting more merchants and customers into the digital fiat system.

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April 04, 2014, 11:09:50 PM
 #2294

Let's move this discussion to a new thread. Goodbye and best wishes to this TA thread.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557732.msg6076321#msg6076321

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April 05, 2014, 03:40:12 AM
 #2295

Let's move this discussion to a new thread. Goodbye and best wishes to this TA thread.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557732.msg6076321#msg6076321

Finally! All i was seeing when entering this thread was AnonyMint posting while the thread is named rpietila thread.

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April 05, 2014, 04:05:24 AM
 #2296

I can't do TA as such, I can draw a line on a chart and point out classic 'signs' but I'm not convinced that helps me or anyone. It's interesting to read though.

Its just risk management. It can only work alongside a sound strategy. just like in a game of chess.


Yes I see the reasoning behind it, It seems any attempt to time the market (for me) returns no better than a coin flip though.

I suppose in some way I do 'trade' (skim the run ups). I'm more of a macro risk manager though Smiley buy and HODL Wink


I guess the idea is to be patient enough for the technicals and fundamentals to align. the fundamentals secure your odds, and the technicals optimise the risk/reward and offer decisive entries.
Ive learned that if you cant name the specific force that will drive your position for any given set up, the trade is no good. It adds dimension of time stops and precise expectations for your trade. It is much easier to realise when one is wrong when one knows what one expects.


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April 05, 2014, 05:47:02 AM
 #2297

Ofcourse its eazier said than dunn since executing on the 50 50 chance that you were weong requires you to take a hit and requires you to know yourself... takes people a long journey to realize this some people never get out ofthe hole only a small percentage see the light. We all know how to spot am entry but patiemce execution and follow through are not something you can teach or copy.. it requires the trade to resonate with your beliefs morals and intuition without thinking about profit or loss(revenge)
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April 05, 2014, 07:32:53 AM
 #2298

But we are at least in agreement about something (HURRAH!) with regard to shorting: I don't participate in that market either, not so much for the reasons you stated but that it seems morally wrong to profit from the failure of a market (I remember the Soros-short inspired sterling crash of the eighties).

All this moral crap really annoys me. Shorting helps to prevent selloffs from being so severe, because shorts cover on the way down and provide buying demand.

Moralists always cause the opposite of what they portend to.

Successful trades buy low and sell high. They dampen market fluctuation, increase stability, and are in my view the most moral of all.
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April 05, 2014, 12:16:55 PM
 #2299

But we are at least in agreement about something (HURRAH!) with regard to shorting: I don't participate in that market either, not so much for the reasons you stated but that it seems morally wrong to profit from the failure of a market (I remember the Soros-short inspired sterling crash of the eighties).

All this moral crap really annoys me. Shorting helps to prevent selloffs from being so severe, because shorts cover on the way down and provide buying demand.

Moralists always cause the opposite of what they portend to.

Successful trades buy low and sell high. They dampen market fluctuation, increase stability, and are in my view the most moral of all.

You do realize don't you that is no refutation of what I wrote.

The operative phrase is "buy low". That means don't catch a falling knife.

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April 05, 2014, 03:16:20 PM
 #2300

Seems we offloaded a lot of offtopic-stuff somewhere else. Time for some long-term-lurkers to leave the darkness and write their stupid first post.

A couple of days ago i started drawing lines and kept them in Bitcoinwisdom and i was surprised when the bounces respect my lines.
I don't care how that pattern is named (should i?!) but that it was respected was cool  Grin

So here are lines:
https://i.imgur.com/ovDZYt3.png

I don't know where the sentiment change exactly is coming from but one can feel it. We're getting more optimistic again and people think the bottom has been reached.

I think the coming hours and days are critical because, even though with low volume, it already broke my upper line:

https://i.imgur.com/6OjVosZ.png
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