[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[georgem]

Just not sure about the fee for a period of time

Me too.

Why? So you pay 0.05DRK when you want to mix, then you mix how ever much you want. If your client goes over 24 hours, it'll spend another 0.05DRK to keep going. It eliminates the timing attacks and double spending attacks.

People are used to registering for monthly or yearly subscriptions.
Maybe offer those too, and give the user some discount?
monthly 10% off
yearly 50% off.

[1714181395]

1714181395

[salmion]

Well... if the fee is for a darksend session so you pick the rounds (this only influences how long it will take) and then hit start session and pay your fee.

If you stop the session you'll have to pay the fee again.

Hey presto no spamming.

[stealth923]

Just not sure about the fee for a period of time

Me too.

Why? So you pay 0.05DRK when you want to mix, then you mix how ever much you want. If your client goes over 24 hours, it'll spend another 0.05DRK to keep going. It eliminates the timing attacks and double spending attacks.

people could still spam during that window and bloat the network for free, no?

DOS attacks? We could have a masternode sign the transaction when publishing it. The distribution should be really even among the masternodes, so that would eliminate bloat. So if you own 1 masternode, you could publish 1 transaction every 2 days currently. So it requires 1000DRK to use this feature and you still can't use it very much.

I think I misunderstood something here.. If someone pays a small amount to be able to darksend for 24hours, then it means those people could mega spam during 24 hours, regardless of the MNs, no?

EDIT: or you meant people pay for the time the anonymization process? Then they actually darksend 10 days later for free if they want to? So if it's about anonymizing the funds, then yes people can't spam or DDOS

Correct - people pay for the anonymization process for 24hrs, not darksend.

They are essentially paying to access to the masternode network with their 0.1DRK for a period of 24hrs in which they need to provide the transaction 0.1DRK to gain access and the signature of the coins they need to mix to prove its theirs.

[georgem]

I think I misunderstood something here.. If someone pays a small amount to be able to darksend for 24hours, then it means those people could mega spam during 24 hours, regardless of the MNs, no?

EDIT: or you meant people pay for the time the anonymization process? Then they actually darksend 10 days later for free if they want to? So if it's about anonymizing the funds, then yes people can't spam or DDOS

Well, that's the thing, would it be spamming, or providing awesome liquidity?
(remember the liquidity provider tool?)

[eduffield]

I think I misunderstood something here.. If someone pays a small amount to be able to darksend for 24hours, then it means those people could mega spam during 24 hours, regardless of the MNs, no?

EDIT: or you meant people pay for the time the anonymization process? Then they actually darksend 10 days later for free if they want to? So if it's about anonymizing the funds, then yes people can't spam or DDOS

If you owned 20 masternodes, you could send 10-20 transactions a day for free. That's the idea. Without the signature of the masternode, the transactions would be rejected.

[georgem]

Why? So you pay 0.05DRK when you want to mix, then you mix how ever much you want. If your client goes over 24 hours, it'll spend another 0.05DRK to keep going. It eliminates the timing attacks and double spending attacks.

people could still spam during that window and bloat the network for free, no?

DOS attacks? We could have a masternode sign the transaction when publishing it. The distribution should be really even among the masternodes, so that would eliminate bloat. So if you own 1 masternode, you could publish 1 transaction every 2 days currently. So it requires 1000DRK to use this feature and you still can't use it very much.

I think I misunderstood something here.. If someone pays a small amount to be able to darksend for 24hours, then it means those people could mega spam during 24 hours, regardless of the MNs, no?

EDIT: or you meant people pay for the time the anonymization process? Then they actually darksend 10 days later for free if they want to? So if it's about anonymizing the funds, then yes people can't spam or DDOS

Correct - people pay for the anonymization process for 24hrs, not darksend.

They are essentially paying to access to the masternode network with their 0.1DRK for a period of 24hrs in which they need to provide the transaction 0.1DRK to gain access and the signature of the coins they need to mix to prove its theirs.

Ah, now I get it.
instant TX is only possible with previously anonymized coins. (I kept confusing "anonymization process" with darksend.)
Darksend and instant TX ARE two completely different ways of how you send the previously anonymized coins.
Or how exactly are they related?

Shit I am confuuuused...   but in an amusing way.

What good is darksend if we have instant TX?
Or is instant TX about to replace darksend for good?

[roede94105]

I think I misunderstood something here.. If someone pays a small amount to be able to darksend for 24hours, then it means those people could mega spam during 24 hours, regardless of the MNs, no?

EDIT: or you meant people pay for the time the anonymization process? Then they actually darksend 10 days later for free if they want to? So if it's about anonymizing the funds, then yes people can't spam or DDOS

If you owned 20 masternodes, you could send 10-20 transactions a day for free. That's the idea. Without the signature of the masternode, the transactions would be rejected.

I agree then with your idea to block to 1-2 (for now at least, we can improve it if necessary), the amount of MN darksend a day.

[roede94105]

Well... if the fee is for a darksend session so you pick the rounds (this only influences how long it will take) and then hit start session and pay your fee.

If you stop the session you'll have to pay the fee again.

Hey presto no spamming.

I like this

[eduffield]

Hard to implement no ? How about paying a (one time) fee randomly to one of the masternodes involved in the rounds ?

EDIT : hmm no the first round's masternode.

No, that part is pretty easy to implement. I've laid out most of the API for this type of thing already. Your idea sounds pretty much the same as mine, you pay once and then you provide proof of that to the nodes as you go. However, mine isn't tied to any transaction, so it's more secure.

[eduffield]

People are used to registering for monthly or yearly subscriptions.
Maybe offer those too, and give the user some discount?
monthly 10% off
yearly 50% off.

Definitely possible.

[roede94105]

Alright Evan, would you mind recap what the proposal is so far?

Also I think a Pay per Darksend process is better than for a period of time, but it's the source of the issue, right?

[eduffield]

Well... if the fee is for a darksend session so you pick the rounds (this only influences how long it will take) and then hit start session and pay your fee.

If you stop the session you'll have to pay the fee again.

Hey presto no spamming.

No, you could stop/start the session as much as you want. The wallet will see you have an active "subscription" and provide that.

[salmion]

I think I misunderstood something here.. If someone pays a small amount to be able to darksend for 24hours, then it means those people could mega spam during 24 hours, regardless of the MNs, no?

EDIT: or you meant people pay for the time the anonymization process? Then they actually darksend 10 days later for free if they want to? So if it's about anonymizing the funds, then yes people can't spam or DDOS

If you owned 20 masternodes, you could send 10-20 transactions a day for free. That's the idea. Without the signature of the masternode, the transactions would be rejected.

Are these "free" transactions not traceable though? If you know free transactions come from masternode X then you know owner of masternode X sent this transaction?

Sorry I don't understand this bit..

[roede94105]

Well... if the fee is for a darksend session so you pick the rounds (this only influences how long it will take) and then hit start session and pay your fee.

If you stop the session you'll have to pay the fee again.

Hey presto no spamming.

No, you could stop/start the session as much as you want. The wallet will see you have an active "subscription" and provide that.

That's even better, then a pay per session is better than a pay for a certain amount of time imho.

[eduffield]

Alright Evan, would you mind recap what the proposal is so far?

Also I think a Pay per Darksend process is better than for a period of time, but it's the source of the issue, right?

Yeah, it's the source.

The Proposal:

Hardfork the network to provide completely zero-fee darksend mixing. However, when users start they'll pay a "subscription". When mixing on a masternode, they provide proof they own that subscription and the masternode will allow them to mix. After mixing, only masternodes are capable of transmitting these zero-fee transactions to the network by signing them, and they are restricted to only send 1 a day (some calculation based off the total amount of masternodes).

Subscriptions could come in day/month/yearly forms.

Edit: I've got to run! We'll continue this later

[coins101]

Alright Evan, would you mind recap what the proposal is so far?

Also I think a Pay per Darksend process is better than for a period of time, but it's the source of the issue, right?

Yeah, it's the source.

The Proposal:

Hardfork the network to provide completely zero-fee darksend mixing. However, when users start they'll pay a "subscription". When mixing on a masternode, they provide proof they own that subscription and the masternode will allow them to mix. After mixing, only masternodes are capable of transmitting these zero-fee transactions to the network by signing them, and they are restricted to only send 1 a day (some calculation based off the total amount of masternodes).

Subscriptions could come in day/month/yearly forms.

Edit: I've got to run! We'll continue this later

membership fees?

When you become a member of something, you have different set of rights and protections. There are terms and conditions....which brings in regulators - potentially.

[shojayxt]

Alright Evan, would you mind recap what the proposal is so far?

Also I think a Pay per Darksend process is better than for a period of time, but it's the source of the issue, right?

Yeah, it's the source.

The Proposal:

Hardfork the network to provide completely zero-fee darksend mixing. However, when users start they'll pay a "subscription". When mixing on a masternode, they provide proof they own that subscription and the masternode will allow them to mix. After mixing, only masternodes are capable of transmitting these zero-fee transactions to the network by signing them, and they are restricted to only send 1 a day (some calculation based off the total amount of masternodes).

Subscriptions could come in day/month/yearly forms.

Edit: I've got to run! We'll continue this later

How are these subscriptions acquired?

[georgem]

Alright Evan, would you mind recap what the proposal is so far?

Also I think a Pay per Darksend process is better than for a period of time, but it's the source of the issue, right?

Yeah, it's the source.

The Proposal:

Hardfork the network to provide completely zero-fee darksend mixing. However, when users start they'll pay a "subscription". When mixing on a masternode, they provide proof they own that subscription and the masternode will allow them to mix. After mixing, only masternodes are capable of transmitting these zero-fee transactions to the network by signing them, and they are restricted to only send 1 a day (some calculation based off the total amount of masternodes).

Subscriptions could come in day/month/yearly forms.

Edit: I've got to run! We'll continue this later

or maybe sleep over this, and look at it tomorrow again?
Maybe you can fix the fee problem.

I don't like new features that are implemented solely to get rid of bugs.

[coins101]

I don't like new features that are implemented solely to get rid of bugs.

that's a very good point...but then again, necessity is the mother of invention.

[thelonecrouton]

Fees for Darksend time seem less useful than fees for Darksend amounts. Depending on how many people are anonymising their DRK, 24hrs may or may not be enough, but if you could pay a fixed fee upfront to anonymise a fixed amount of DRK, that would be better IMO.