[NEM] NEM -New Economy Movement - No Envy Movement - Updates+Discussion thread

[patmast3r]

PON = Proof Of Network. As I understand it it's basically you provide infrastructure for the network i.e. running a node and get something in return. The more you support the network the greater the likelyhood of you getting some coins.

Since I can't find any other ressource I'm gessing jaguar came up with it himself ?

[Mrrr]

Utopianfuture: Put a bounty on the head of scammers
Anyone willing to sort through NXT adresses sending NXT to different addresses used to claim extra stakes: go for it. x NEM Bounty for anyone that exposes (and proofs) a scammer

[ashapasa]

PON = Proof Of Network. As I understand it it's basically you provide infrastructure for the network i.e. running a node and get something in return. The more you support the network the greater the likelyhood of you getting some coins.

Since I can't find any other ressource I'm gessing jaguar came up with it himself ?

thanks, so basically like peercoin with some initial distribution among stake holders.

[freigeist]

Price stability can be only achieved if the coin has good
 distribution at the beginning and has a big user base.
The good distribution of the coins should be kept by the system as long as possible.
Good distribution will be achieved if any user is able to participate and adopt the coin
if he is willing to without restrictions once the NEM system is launched.

During time the capital tends flow into hands of the few.
This is happening with FIAT and it happens with bitcoin as bitcoin is becoming more and more
similar to FIAT regarding centralization.
We see in bitcoin that those who have the power can abuse it to gain more profit
and to gain more power.
Is it not possible for me to participate in bitcoin network as a common user
unless i buy the coin or unless i buy ASIC GPUS or other shit to start mining.

This could for sure be the case with NEM as POS coin if the POS reward is to big because
if it happens  that a few big stake holders will be created during time
and they will become powerful in NEM system as central banks are in FIAT system.
Once the majority of capital is in the hands of the few than it can be subject to manipulation
like coin price can be manipulated in the market and can be dumped and bought back,
similar to "loans" today in fiat where fake crisis and shortage can be made by the few.

To avoid this kind of scenario we need to find best ratio between POS and PON.
Just not to forget that also if to much weight to the PON is given than that
this can maybe be exploited by botnets

Currently suggested ratios are:
40% POS / 60% PON
60% POS / 40% PON

It would be nice if an economic model simulation could be somehow
made before the any decision about this is taken.

[Xpedite]

I don't understand why more attention to PON would attract speculation. Could you elaborate on that ?
Also I think the POS/PON combination is something new and thus would get people to invest and have interest in NEM. I'm still for 60 % PON since I deem supporting the network by running a node is more valuable than merely having coins (regardless which amount).

I don't mean that more attention on PON would attract more speculation but lowering the attention on POS would. And since one does not go without another this would be the result in my opinion.

Let's assume 100% PON. So anyone can just install a client, setup a node and start forging even without initial stake/investment.
Why would you hold on to your stake if there is no difference in the gain.

I believe this is one of the reasons why NXT is so sucessfull even with the initial distribution issue.

As I said before, I think the main goal should be to establish a stable currency. This doesn't mean that people have to hold on to their stake, it doesn't matter how it's established!

I am really convinced that the price fluctuations are still the main argument not to invest in cryptocurrencies.

If I am making some sort of logical miscalculation here (which is obviously possible since I am still a noob) please put me on the right track. 

[Xpedite]

Price stability can be only achieved if the coin has good
 distribution at the beginning and has a big user base.
The good distribution of the coins should be kept by the system as long as possible.
Good distribution will be achieved if any user is able to participate and adopt the coin
if he is willing to without restrictions once the NEM system is launched.

During time the capital tends flow into hands of the few.
This is happening with FIAT and it happens with bitcoin as bitcoin is becoming more and more
similar to FIAT regarding centralization.
We see in bitcoin that those who have the power can abuse it to gain more profit
and to gain more power.
Is it not possible for me to participate in bitcoin network as a common user
unless i buy the coin or unless i buy ASIC GPUS or other shit to start mining.

This could for sure be the case with NEM as POS coin if the POS reward is to big because
if it happens  that a few big stake holders will be created during time
and they will become powerful in NEM system as central banks are in FIAT system.
Once the majority of capital is in the hands of the few than it can be subject to manipulation
like coin price can be manipulated in the market and can be dumped and bought back,
similar to "loans" today in fiat where fake crisis and shortage can be made by the few.

Very interesting post!
But I think we should not be naive, there is no system that can prevent those who are powerfull FIAT to become powerfull with NEM.
Even a 100% PON forging system would make the powerfull more profitable since there will not be any monetary inflation (or am I seeing this wrong?)

Hmm, this is starting to get really interesting 

[opticalcarrier]

Utopianfuture: Put a bounty on the head of scammers
Anyone willing to sort through NXT adresses sending NXT to different addresses used to claim extra stakes: go for it. x NEM Bounty for anyone that exposes (and proofs) a scammer

wow thats a great idea... lol say every 10 scammers you expose is an additional stake?  maybe?  or some other number besides 10

[DaFockBro]

Utopianfuture: Put a bounty on the head of scammers
Anyone willing to sort through NXT adresses sending NXT to different addresses used to claim extra stakes: go for it. x NEM Bounty for anyone that exposes (and proofs) a scammer

wow thats a great idea... lol say every 10 scammers you expose is an additional stake?  maybe?  or some other number besides 10

This is an awful idea.  We've absolutely beaten the multiple stakes thing to death.  It's perfectly fine how it is.

If you implement this rule, then people will simply start mixing their coins more so you can't trace them back to a single address.


This is supposed to be no envy movement.  Stop hating on the small number of people who spent hours upon hours upon hours upon hours creating new accounts and wallets to acquire more stakes than you (it's not nearly as easy as you think, very time consuming and expensive).  Just be happy that we're all part of the movement. 

A handful of people might have a few extra stakes.  SO WHAT?! This will be the first crypto that won't have any whales owning more than 2%+

[Thyrumax]

PON = Proof Of Network. As I understand it it's basically you provide infrastructure for the network i.e. running a node and get something in return. The more you support the network the greater the likelyhood of you getting some coins.

Since I can't find any other ressource I'm gessing jaguar came up with it himself ?

thanks, so basically like peercoin with some initial distribution among stake holders.

Look at TimeKoin.org http://timekoin.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53&Itemid=56
They have a very interesting system.
They've been around for years. I hear about them just few days ago.

[ZeroTheGreat]

Let's assume 100% PON. So anyone can just install a client, setup a node and start forging even without initial stake/investment.
Why would you hold on to your stake if there is no difference in the gain.

It's not about forger's profit. It's about secure system. In Nxt u need coins to generate block, more coins = more chances. It makes front-attack expensive: attacker'll need biggest part of coins to write buggy chain that still'd be most diff. one (all honest chains'll be forks in this case).

If u replace PoS with PoN in start, low amount of nodes'll make network extremly vulnerable. I'm not sure even with later replacement, cos node-based attack always'll be cheaper than $/bruteforce-based attack (buy coins to generate buggy chain or crack Curve to do the same or to kill project). Should we sacriface attack cost gap for "fairness" (equal node-based forging)? I'm almost sure, that correct answer is "NO".

[Fatih87SK]

Everyone gets a 'Piece' =)



Hope you like it.

[dwma]

I doubt we have 3000 newbies. And you just need to skim through the emails anyway, the purpose is to make it so that it takes 10mins to write the email but just 5 secs to skim through it. The guy creating 150 accounts would need to write 150 emails and send from 150 different addresses... impractical. We might still get the odd guy that uses his work email and his wife's email, but we are making it more difficult and at least we block the whales.

If we are going to start doing this, do we have an option for a refund?   This is a complete absurdity from the simple fact that the sock puppets can and will send you emails with some dopey story.  This is a time sink and detracts from getting a working coin out the door. My recollection is the social contract says funding accounts will be refunded so it isn't like NEM gains by keeping their money.  And if NEM did keep their money, it'd be a black eye on NEM as a whole.

Closing registration?  Now NEM is starting to really gain funds.  If the devs are going to write a lot of code then they need the money, even if it does increase the chances someone walks off with the loot.

Last I knew you have to sit on this site and lurk for some time before you can even post.  

In the end all you'll do is weed out the lesser intelligent "whales" or "scammers" or what have you.  Also, you might want to consider that the people who go through the trouble to get a few shares might give more because of their increased stake.  Having multi-accouters doesn't necessarily hurt the coin, it could in fact help.

[dwma]

It's not about forger's profit. It's about secure system. In Nxt u need coins to generate block, more coins = more chances. It makes front-attack expensive: attacker'll need biggest part of coins to write buggy chain that still'd be most diff. one (all honest chains'll be forks in this case).

If u replace PoS with PoN in start, low amount of nodes'll make network extremly vulnerable. I'm not sure even with later replacement, cos node-based attack always'll be cheaper than $/bruteforce-based attack (buy coins to generate buggy chain or crack Curve to do the same or to kill project). Should we sacriface attack cost gap for "fairness" (equal node-based forging)? I'm almost sure, that correct answer is "NO".

Well said. 

Too many people throwing out random ideas to keep it "fair" but don't readily understand how things are exploited.  If you want the coin to be viable, the ***#1**** goal is security.  You start putting in PON and good luck with maintaining security.  I myself need to read more about NXTs, but at least it doesn't jump out at me as a 'bad idea' like PON does.

[opticalcarrier]

you guys are killing me.  where can I go to read more on this PoN?  Cause google aint doin it for me

[hyunsookmom]

I still find it ironic that a coin that is trying to not be about Envy has the most envy evident in this forum before it even launches...

[gimre]

Hi community!!!!

My English is pathetic, i need google translator to write.

If you have much free time, you can make very good videos with MAGIX Video deluxe 2014:

random executables, random dlls, on teh internetz.... yeah, great way to gain some new malware samples...

[gimre]

Look at TimeKoin.org http://timekoin.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53&Itemid=56
They have a very interesting system.
They've been around for years. I hear about them just few days ago.

If you intend to invest anything in it, I would be VERY, VERY cautious, search forum for creator's nick...

[DaFockBro]

I doubt we have 3000 newbies. And you just need to skim through the emails anyway, the purpose is to make it so that it takes 10mins to write the email but just 5 secs to skim through it. The guy creating 150 accounts would need to write 150 emails and send from 150 different addresses... impractical. We might still get the odd guy that uses his work email and his wife's email, but we are making it more difficult and at least we block the whales.

If we are going to start doing this, do we have an option for a refund?   This is a complete absurdity from the simple fact that the sock puppets can and will send you emails with some dopey story.  This is a time sink and detracts from getting a working coin out the door. My recollection is the social contract says funding accounts will be refunded so it isn't like NEM gains by keeping their money.  And if NEM did keep their money, it'd be a black eye on NEM as a whole.

Closing registration?  Now NEM is starting to really gain funds.  If the devs are going to write a lot of code then they need the money, even if it does increase the chances someone walks off with the loot.

Last I knew you have to sit on this site and lurk for some time before you can even post.  

In the end all you'll do is weed out the lesser intelligent "whales" or "scammers" or what have you.  Also, you might want to consider that the people who go through the trouble to get a few shares might give more because of their increased stake.  Having multi-accouters doesn't necessarily hurt the coin, it could in fact help.

I think we really need to implement a DNA/fingerprint rule.  1 stake per DNA/fingerprint sample.


Only problem with this is the "scammers" will start hiring sock puppet homeless people to provide DNA/fingerprint samples for them.

In order to combat the sock puppet homeless people problem we need to implant a bluetooth chip into each stakeholder that corresponds to their 1 wallet.  The NEM in the wallet will only be accessible if the bluetooth chip is within 5 feet of the computer that is running the corresponding NEM wallet.

[freigeist]

Look at TimeKoin.org http://timekoin.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53&Itemid=56
They have a very interesting system.
They've been around for years. I hear about them just few days ago.

If you intend to invest anything in it, I would be VERY, VERY cautious, search forum for creator's nick...

From what I have understood there is no requirement to invest anything to start using timekoin.
You need just to run the client.

[utopianfuture]

Update: list is updated to the end of page 50. We are at 2380 accounts (including everything so the final total would drop a bit).

Two hash thefts are found in the last 10 pages. They are not going to give up so it is a constant fight until the fundraising is over. So if you have times, keep an eyes on new hashes or transaction ID in the registration thread. Make a quote when you see anything suspicious and I would check it when I look at the thread.

My goal is to have around 3000 stakeholders and about 50BTC+400K NXT (roughly 60-70K$). Theoretically we could run this until we close to launching the blockchain but I expect we could wrap it up within this month and be over with the distribution discussion.