[ANN] Ethereum: Welcome to the Beginning

[LiQio]

ETC will have limited supply. Ethf has unlimited token supply, unlimited forks, unlimited inflation and pos will be the final nail in the coffin. Vitaly is a criminal.

What is the problem of POS? inflation?

That plus it's the definition of a ponzi. The top holders will get free tokens for life at the expense of new entrants and then constantly dump on new investors.

I don't think you know what a ponzi scheme is, then.

From Wikipedia: A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒn.zi/; also a Ponzi game)[1] is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.

Given this actual definition of a ponzie scheme, how exactly is PoS implementation on a public blockchain a ponzi, and how does that make "Vitaly a criminal"?

Note: I'm not expecting bitpop to actually be able to answer this.  Rarely, in the face of rational and logical reasoning, has he been able to say anything that amounts to more than just fud.

is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.

Care to answer any of those questions I posed bitpop? Or all you can do is repeat what I said?

If you send bitpop to wikipedia, better have him start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

[ratatatat]

So, now that everyone knows Vitaly is just an autist; what's the next hype-coin to short? Some more R3 garbage coming?

I can see from your post history that you talk a bunch of shit, but do very little. Must be a sad life... So, what would you do to make improvements? Changes you'd like to suggest to those projects?

Scrap it and next time don't launch on a presale. Presales are all scams (or at least you can't present evidence they weren't). Why wasting the time of everyone involved with an almost certain scam? If people were serious about the technology they'd launch without ico/ipo/ito crap.

When talking about sytem: complexity = attack surface
If you want a coin that can survive you should make it simple. This convoluted coin is a joke. Priorities of the project were very strange. No sense for security or user-trust at all; no idea about governance. Leadership looked like they had no idea what they were doing.

Yeah, so that's that.
Tech comes second. Monetary policy comes first and if that is botched with a presale already you can pretty much scrap it right out the gate. Presales are dead on arrival if you're trying to make something more than a toycoin. For me mETH wa a toycoin from day 1 - just the hype irritated me a bit. Everyone should have known it doesn't have a future just because it was presold. How come people started praising it as the next generation bitcoin? Looks very scammy to me because it was clear as day this wasn't going to live up to the hype. A lot of money was stolen from a lot of people. I think projects like thisw hurt the image of the entire space.    
So that'd be my suggestions for a more successful next try: fair launch and a minimum of a plan for governance.

The hardfork-adictedness is ridiculous too. Hardforking a lot doesn't mean the coin and the community is "agile"; it means the coin is broken and needs to be fixed all the time. A good coin hardforks only very few times.

 

[IncludeBeer]

So, now that everyone knows Vitaly is just an autist; what's the next hype-coin to short? Some more R3 garbage coming?

I can see from your post history that you talk a bunch of shit, but do very little. Must be a sad life... So, what would you do to make improvements? Changes you'd like to suggest to those projects?

Scrap it and next time don't launch on a presale. Presales are all scams (or at least you can't present evidence they weren't). Why wasting the time of everyone involved with an almost certain scam? If people were serious about the technology they'd launch without ico/ipo/ito crap.

When talking about sytem: complexity = attack surface
If you want a coin that can survive you should make it simple. This convoluted coin is a joke. Priorities of the project were very strange. No sense for security or user-trust at all; no idea about governance. Leadership looked like they had no idea what they were doing.

Yeah, so that's that.
Tech comes second. Monetary policy comes first and if that is botched with a presale already you can pretty much scrap it right out the gate. Presales are dead on arrival if you're trying to make something more than a toycoin. For me mETH wa a toycoin from day 1 - just the hype irritated me a bit. Everyone should have known it doesn't have a future just because it was presold. How come people started praising it as the next generation bitcoin? Looks very scammy to me because it was clear as day this wasn't going to live up to the hype. A lot of money was stolen from a lot of people. I think projects like thisw hurt the image of the entire space.    
So that'd be my suggestions for a more successful next try: fair launch and a minimum of a plan for governance.

The hardfork-adictedness is ridiculous too. Hardforking a lot doesn't mean the coin and the community is "agile"; it means the coin is broken and needs to be fixed all the time. A good coin hardforks only very few times.

 

I disagree with your premise: a presale does not automatically make a coin a scam or doa.  In fact, I don't see the rationale behind that statement at all. Can you give some examples/justifications?  The purpose of a presale is to provide funding to a team to develop something the purchasers of the presale would find value in.  And if the team is good, they're able to manage and utilize those funds to execute on the project. It's why people buy into such things, and imo, the product delivered has been in line with announced roadmap. I've seen just as many coins launched with no premine, ico, or otherwise that have fallen off the grid just as fast; we all have in fact.

It's true, increased complexity means a greater attack surface.  But how exactly would you go about accomplishing everything that Eth has and yet make it simpler?  I'm not sure how "techy" you are, but I'm a software engineer working in molecular diagnostics, and I can tell you: complexity in a system is inevitable if you want to do more than a -> b -> c.  Let's remember: Eth is the first of its kind to do what its done.  There was no precedent to follow, no complete repositories of code to clone.  Also, don't forget: making a system robust (which everyone wants) also adds additional complexity.  It's simply unavoidable.  I've read the code.  I follow some of the githubs.  IMO, the dev work as been quite good.  Have you done any of this to back up your opinion, or is more gut-feel?

I agree though, the frequent hf's have been unfortunate.  It's not nice to see, that's for sure.  But considering what they've done for the chain, I'd much rather the team implement the hf's and learn from them, then to not hf and leave shit as it is.  The only way to move forward is to make progress.  No progress == stale coin.

[IncludeBeer]

ETC will have limited supply. Ethf has unlimited token supply, unlimited forks, unlimited inflation and pos will be the final nail in the coffin. Vitaly is a criminal.

What is the problem of POS? inflation?

That plus it's the definition of a ponzi. The top holders will get free tokens for life at the expense of new entrants and then constantly dump on new investors.

I don't think you know what a ponzi scheme is, then.

From Wikipedia: A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒn.zi/; also a Ponzi game)[1] is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.

Given this actual definition of a ponzie scheme, how exactly is PoS implementation on a public blockchain a ponzi, and how does that make "Vitaly a criminal"?

Note: I'm not expecting bitpop to actually be able to answer this.  Rarely, in the face of rational and logical reasoning, has he been able to say anything that amounts to more than just fud.

is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.

Care to answer any of those questions I posed bitpop? Or all you can do is repeat what I said?

It's the definition of a ponzi, there are no questions. And vitaly owning a ponzi makes him a criminal.

Lol we quite definitively established that it's not the definition of a ponzi, by the fucking definition itself!   You do speak English, right? I'll break it down for you:

• a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors: Vitalik is neither the operator, individual, nor organization who is paying returns to investors.
• ...from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources.: PoS rewards are not issued from capital paid to the operators by the new investors.  These rewards are generated via the protocol, in exchange for miners processing transactions and minting new blocks.
• Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.:  PoS implementation in no way solicits abnormally high short-term returns on investment.  Certainly no more than PoW does.  The currently expected numbers in the latest Muave paper from Vitalik prove this.

Maybe...you don't understand how PoS works?   I mean, you know that the person with the highest stake doesn't always get to mine the next block, right?  IMO, the proposed Casper implementation is very creative and elegant solution to that particular problem (Block selection variants).  

So,

Care to answer any of those questions I posed bitpop? Or all you can do is repeat what I said?

[JeffBrad12]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCRna2B9DHw

Vitalik is the next satoshi nakamoto 2.0!!!!!!!!!
 

[CoinCidental]

With POS, we will see constant downtrend, bcoz Top Holders will dump for Profit, until we see any development or uses that drive the price higher. Till then Downtrend will continue.

I think you need too learn some mathematics, currently 1 million Ethereum are produce each month - this finishes in March 2017.

This equates to 33,333 ETH are produced each day and at a guess up too 70% are sold on each day or 23,333 ETH too investors.

Proof of stake at 1% per annum is 90,000 ETH, increasing in long rung, so the the 1% would need some modest reductions to not runaway with the effects of compound interest.

7500, ETH a month, which works out at 250 ETH a day!

Yeah, who actually going to sit there and claim the crypto market can't absorb 250 ETH each day? LOL


 

I agree, it's easy to absorb it as the price approaches $1

Bitpop

You're full of doom and gloom thesedays...
Why don't you tell us about the time you lost your bitcoins so we can all have a laugh and cheer up a bit? 

[roselee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCRna2B9DHw

Vitalik is the next satoshi nakamoto 2.0!!!!!!!!!
 

you think vitalik will disapear like satoshi ?
becouse to disapear was a very selfles gift to humanity

[ratatatat]

So, now that everyone knows Vitaly is just an autist; what's the next hype-coin to short? Some more R3 garbage coming?

I can see from your post history that you talk a bunch of shit, but do very little. Must be a sad life... So, what would you do to make improvements? Changes you'd like to suggest to those projects?

Scrap it and next time don't launch on a presale. Presales are all scams (or at least you can't present evidence they weren't). Why wasting the time of everyone involved with an almost certain scam? If people were serious about the technology they'd launch without ico/ipo/ito crap.

When talking about sytem: complexity = attack surface
If you want a coin that can survive you should make it simple. This convoluted coin is a joke. Priorities of the project were very strange. No sense for security or user-trust at all; no idea about governance. Leadership looked like they had no idea what they were doing.

Yeah, so that's that.
Tech comes second. Monetary policy comes first and if that is botched with a presale already you can pretty much scrap it right out the gate. Presales are dead on arrival if you're trying to make something more than a toycoin. For me mETH wa a toycoin from day 1 - just the hype irritated me a bit. Everyone should have known it doesn't have a future just because it was presold. How come people started praising it as the next generation bitcoin? Looks very scammy to me because it was clear as day this wasn't going to live up to the hype. A lot of money was stolen from a lot of people. I think projects like thisw hurt the image of the entire space.    
So that'd be my suggestions for a more successful next try: fair launch and a minimum of a plan for governance.

The hardfork-adictedness is ridiculous too. Hardforking a lot doesn't mean the coin and the community is "agile"; it means the coin is broken and needs to be fixed all the time. A good coin hardforks only very few times.

 

I disagree with your premise: a presale does not automatically make a coin a scam or doa.  In fact, I don't see the rationale behind that statement at all. Can you give some examples/justifications?  The purpose of a presale is to provide funding to a team to develop something the purchasers of the presale would find value in.  And if the team is good, they're able to manage and utilize those funds to execute on the project. It's why people buy into such things, and imo, the product delivered has been in line with announced roadmap. I've seen just as many coins launched with no premine, ico, or otherwise that have fallen off the grid just as fast; we all have in fact.

It's true, increased complexity means a greater attack surface.  But how exactly would you go about accomplishing everything that Eth has and yet make it simpler?  I'm not sure how "techy" you are, but I'm a software engineer working in molecular diagnostics, and I can tell you: complexity in a system is inevitable if you want to do more than a -> b -> c.  Let's remember: Eth is the first of its kind to do what its done.  There was no precedent to follow, no complete repositories of code to clone.  Also, don't forget: making a system robust (which everyone wants) also adds additional complexity.  It's simply unavoidable.  I've read the code.  I follow some of the githubs.  IMO, the dev work as been quite good.  Have you done any of this to back up your opinion, or is more gut-feel?

I agree though, the frequent hf's have been unfortunate.  It's not nice to see, that's for sure.  But considering what they've done for the chain, I'd much rather the team implement the hf's and learn from them, then to not hf and leave shit as it is.  The only way to move forward is to make progress.  No progress == stale coin.

presale = unlimited and undisclosed and free premine for the one issuing the presale if/when he/she buys into it him/herself. Not buying into it yourself would be pretty stupid, right? You think those devs are saints? There are hundreds of topic on the issue on the board here. You must be a noob? Why else is everyone and their mom crying scam?
If you offer free money to 100 people: 100 of the 100 will take it. It's human nature and that's why presales are shady.

If you want a one-time pump and dump a presale will do fine but if you care to create a product which should live for a while you would care not to premine and presale if you were smart. Opening a market with a presale in crypto means right from the start the coin won't be a store for value - no moneytoken; just a toycoin.

What did eth achieve? Haven't seen anything remarkable so far. Something that's actually inovative and functional to show? I've been asking for a usecase for a long time. Nobody could answer this in a straight forward fashion.

The point being: not even bitcoin is really working to a satisfactory degree. Other coins neither. Eth-folks are like someone living in 19th century telling Rudolph Diesel his engine wasn't needed because people would build rocketships directly. Then the rocketship tanks of course because the car isn't even there. May i ask on what foundation is eth building? On nothing. It's made from scratch pretty much. Completely experimental of course - and people should haven been told "it's experimental" instead of hype.

Presale and false hype going together smells like fish. Really old fish.

For the tech part:
can't really compare crypto to anything since access is permissionless and global. So if everyone has access, that's quite a lot of risk. I don't think it's realistic to think one could secure a coin longterm which is many magnitudes more complex than bitcoin for a public network anytime soon. People will still try and fail.
As i said: i don't see eth made any real accomplishements. It is broken.
I'd recommend to try to achieve things in smaller steps and build upon what is working.
I wouldn't know what functionality btc is lacking. One might have to be a minimalist to even wrap the head around it. What functionality does your dollarbill in your pocket have? You think your money would be worth more if it was more colourful or had an extra gimmick like smelling like peaches? Would you pay 1,50$ for a 1$-note because it smells like peach?
I doubt there is demand for more feature rich money.

People who try to build ultra complex cryptos just show they don't understand what money is or what purpose it serves. No wonder they end up scamming people.

The hardforks aren't "unfortunate"; they are "like expected".

If you think making a system robust adds complexity you shouldn't work in security.

Not saying the idea was worthless; just saying "too much madness, too much ambition, poor leadership, obscure moneydistribution because of presale, too much pump and dump. In short: not enough realism. Just a mad hype-parade which makes pretty much everyone loose money.
Next time around maybe take one step at a time or it'll fall on the floor again because of too many issues.

So you tell me there are still people holding? I would have thought the sentiment is 'it's dead' already. Am i too soon?

Lol, look at it - it even has accidentally forked into two blockchains and now barely syncs anymore despite hardforks left and right. Why don't these hardforks fix things but keep making things worse? Of course it failed. Hardforks rarely make a coin better; the opposite is the case. It's not intuitive and it doesn't need to be.

[IncludeBeer]

So, now that everyone knows Vitaly is just an autist; what's the next hype-coin to short? Some more R3 garbage coming?

I can see from your post history that you talk a bunch of shit, but do very little. Must be a sad life... So, what would you do to make improvements? Changes you'd like to suggest to those projects?

Scrap it and next time don't launch on a presale. Presales are all scams (or at least you can't present evidence they weren't). Why wasting the time of everyone involved with an almost certain scam? If people were serious about the technology they'd launch without ico/ipo/ito crap.

When talking about sytem: complexity = attack surface
If you want a coin that can survive you should make it simple. This convoluted coin is a joke. Priorities of the project were very strange. No sense for security or user-trust at all; no idea about governance. Leadership looked like they had no idea what they were doing.

Yeah, so that's that.
Tech comes second. Monetary policy comes first and if that is botched with a presale already you can pretty much scrap it right out the gate. Presales are dead on arrival if you're trying to make something more than a toycoin. For me mETH wa a toycoin from day 1 - just the hype irritated me a bit. Everyone should have known it doesn't have a future just because it was presold. How come people started praising it as the next generation bitcoin? Looks very scammy to me because it was clear as day this wasn't going to live up to the hype. A lot of money was stolen from a lot of people. I think projects like thisw hurt the image of the entire space.    
So that'd be my suggestions for a more successful next try: fair launch and a minimum of a plan for governance.

The hardfork-adictedness is ridiculous too. Hardforking a lot doesn't mean the coin and the community is "agile"; it means the coin is broken and needs to be fixed all the time. A good coin hardforks only very few times.

 

I disagree with your premise: a presale does not automatically make a coin a scam or doa.  In fact, I don't see the rationale behind that statement at all. Can you give some examples/justifications?  The purpose of a presale is to provide funding to a team to develop something the purchasers of the presale would find value in.  And if the team is good, they're able to manage and utilize those funds to execute on the project. It's why people buy into such things, and imo, the product delivered has been in line with announced roadmap. I've seen just as many coins launched with no premine, ico, or otherwise that have fallen off the grid just as fast; we all have in fact.

It's true, increased complexity means a greater attack surface.  But how exactly would you go about accomplishing everything that Eth has and yet make it simpler?  I'm not sure how "techy" you are, but I'm a software engineer working in molecular diagnostics, and I can tell you: complexity in a system is inevitable if you want to do more than a -> b -> c.  Let's remember: Eth is the first of its kind to do what its done.  There was no precedent to follow, no complete repositories of code to clone.  Also, don't forget: making a system robust (which everyone wants) also adds additional complexity.  It's simply unavoidable.  I've read the code.  I follow some of the githubs.  IMO, the dev work as been quite good.  Have you done any of this to back up your opinion, or is more gut-feel?

I agree though, the frequent hf's have been unfortunate.  It's not nice to see, that's for sure.  But considering what they've done for the chain, I'd much rather the team implement the hf's and learn from them, then to not hf and leave shit as it is.  The only way to move forward is to make progress.  No progress == stale coin.

presale = unlimited and undisclosed and free premine for the one issuing the presale if/when he/she buys into it him/herself. Not buying into it yourself would be pretty stupid, right? You think those devs are saints? There are hundreds of topic on the issue on the board here. You must be a noob? Why else is everyone and their mom crying scam?
If you offer free money to 100 people: 100 of the 100 will take it. It's human nature and that's why presales are shady.

If you want a one-time pump and dump a presale will do fine but if you care to create a product which should live for a while you would care not to premine and presale if you were smart. Opening a market with a presale in crypto means right from the start the coin won't be a store for value - no moneytoken; just a toycoin.

What did eth achieve? Haven't seen anything remarkable so far. Something that's actually inovative and functional to show? I've been asking for a usecase for a long time. Nobody could answer this in a straight forward fashion.

The point being: not even bitcoin is really working to a satisfactory degree. Other coins neither. Eth-folks are like someone living in 19th century telling Rudolph Diesel his engine wasn't needed because people would build rocketships directly. Then the rocketship tanks of course because the car isn't even there. May i ask on what foundation is eth building? On nothing. It's made from scratch pretty much. Completely experimental of course - and people should haven been told "it's experimental" instead of hype.

Presale and false hype going together smells like fish. Really old fish.

For the tech part:
can't really compare crypto to anything since access is permissionless and global. So if everyone has access, that's quite a lot of risk. I don't think it's realistic to think one could secure a coin longterm which is many magnitudes more complex than bitcoin for a public network anytime soon. People will still try and fail.
As i said: i don't see eth made any real accomplishements. It is broken.
I'd recommend to try to achieve things in smaller steps and build upon what is working.
I wouldn't know what functionality btc is lacking. One might have to be a minimalist to even wrap the head around it. What functionality does your dollarbill in your pocket have? You think your money would be worth more if it was more colourful or had an extra gimmick like smelling like peaches? Would you pay 1,50$ for a 1$-note because it smells like peach?
I doubt there is demand for more feature rich money.

People who try to build ultra complex cryptos just show they don't understand what money is or what purpose it serves. No wonder they end up scamming people.

The hardforks aren't "unfortunate"; they are "like expected".

If you think making a system robust adds complexity you shouldn't work in security.

Not saying the idea was worthless; just saying "too much madness, too much ambition, poor leadership, obscure moneydistribution because of presale, too much pump and dump. In short: not enough realism. Just a mad hype-parade which makes pretty much everyone loose money.
Next time around maybe take one step at a time or it'll fall on the floor again because of too many issues.

So you tell me there are still people holding? I would have thought the sentiment is 'it's dead' already. Am i too soon?

Lol, look at it - it even has accidentally forked into two blockchains and now barely syncs anymore despite hardforks left and right. Why don't these hardforks fix things but keep making things worse? Of course it failed. Hardforks rarely make a coin better; the opposite is the case. It's not intuitive and it doesn't need to be.

Well, I mean it was called an experiment right from the beginning; the risks were laid out (https://ethereum.gitbooks.io/frontier-guide/content/index.html) and people built hype over it because of what it can do.  Something that's innovative and functional to show? Where have you been? Have you even bothered to learn about the tech? Maybe take a look here as a primer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethereum#Applications The use cases are there.  Is that straight-forward enough for you?
This is the first chain to have Turing complete contracts running on the blockchain itself.  That's the big highlight.  Other coins don't have this, and the few that do implement contracts (https://ciyam.org/at/) don't have such a nice solution to empowering those contracts as Eth does (e.g. use of "gas"), at least not imo.

So far this hasn't been just a single pump and dump.  I know what you're saying though: I've seen exactly the type of coin you're describing where shady presale or premine or ico occurs, and within 3 months there's been little/no updates, no exchange recognition, and price went no where but down.  Eth on the other hand has a working blockchain for over 15 months, has hit the first 2 major milestones with the projected features that was laid out in the roadmap during the presale (Frontier & Homestead), with progress towards features for the next major milestone, Metropolis (also laid out during the presale), clearly visible to the community.  Let's not forget the market cap.  Yes, it could still be a bit inflated, but you can't argue that it shows something.  "Put your money where your mouth is" is the expression, and the community has done so.  The coin is being used and traded rigorously.  All these things considered, Eth no longer fits the bill you're trying to describe as scam.

I know it's simply a difference of opinion, but I prefer innovation and risk taking over baby-step approach.  Let other teams take baby steps over the BTC implementation.  Maybe look to Decred if that's what you like.  The disclaimers were given out, and it was even in major media outlets how risky Eth could become, both technically and for the project (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/28/business/dealbook/ethereum-a-virtual-currency-enables-transactions-that-rival-bitcoins.html?_r=1)

Sorry, but I'm still quite unconvinced that Eth is a scam and is not functioning, or "dead". Even the basic metric of 24-hour volume (9,879 BTC according to coinmarketcap) shits on your theory of dead coin.

Edit: forgot to mention: Eth was never meant to be a store of value coin, like Btc.  It's meant to be functional, empowering contracts in the form of gas, and running the "World Computer".  Take a look at the chapter "What's the relationship between bitcoin and ether?" https://www.ethereum.org/ether

[rokkyroad]

IncludeBeer:

" If you offer free money to 100 people: 100 of the 100 will take it. It's human nature and that's why presales are shady. "

One of the best descriptions I've read on why presales, ICOs, IPOs, and ITOs are bad. In only one sentence too.

[Romeo1979]

IncludeBeer:

" If you offer free money to 100 people: 100 of the 100 will take it. It's human nature and that's why presales are shady. "

One of the best descriptions I've read on why presales, ICOs, IPOs, and ITOs are bad. In only one sentence too.

as I heard this presale was pretty profitable ;-)

[rokkyroad]

IncludeBeer:

" If you offer free money to 100 people: 100 of the 100 will take it. It's human nature and that's why presales are shady. "

One of the best descriptions I've read on why presales, ICOs, IPOs, and ITOs are bad. In only one sentence too.

as I heard this presale was pretty profitable ;-)

Presales are very profitable for the insiders. Not so much for the general public with whom most end up holding a bag of expensive tokens. Eth, for example, I would guess despite its pump would have the highest number of bagholders ever spawned in crypto.

[CoinCidental]

IncludeBeer:

" If you offer free money to 100 people: 100 of the 100 will take it. It's human nature and that's why presales are shady. "

One of the best descriptions I've read on why presales, ICOs, IPOs, and ITOs are bad. In only one sentence too.

as I heard this presale was pretty profitable ;-)

Presales are very profitable for the insiders. Not so much for the general public with whom most end up holding a bag of expensive tokens. Eth, for example, I would guess despite its pump would have the highest number of bagholders ever spawned in crypto.

Don't forget zcash, I think it may be the record holder for taking money from idiots 

[Romeo1979]

Zcash was a known scam because ver is a known scammer. Vitaly got lucky scamming because he was new

how he scammed? I heard that the price hit 70x of ICO price...

[Romeo1979]

Zcash was a known scam because ver is a known scammer. Vitaly got lucky scamming because he was new

how he scammed? I heard that the price hit 70x of ICO price...

Fake hype, bad technology, pump and dump

however it's still keeping the pretty high price  ;-)

[mxhwr]

Zcash was a known scam because ver is a known scammer. Vitaly got lucky scamming because he was new

how he scammed? I heard that the price hit 70x of ICO price...

LOL yea exactly where is the scam. anyone who has bought can sell at good profit, so again i ask where is the scam?

[CoinCidental]

Zcash was a known scam because ver is a known scammer. Vitaly got lucky scamming because he was new

how he scammed? I heard that the price hit 70x of ICO price...

LOL yea exactly where is the scam. anyone who has bought can sell at good profit, so again i ask where is the scam?

You  will hold until $0 because you're ignorant while vitaly and team finish dumping on you

Bitpop still butthurt.... 
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=388169.0;imode

[CoinCidental]

Zcash was a known scam because ver is a known scammer. Vitaly got lucky scamming because he was new

how he scammed? I heard that the price hit 70x of ICO price...

LOL yea exactly where is the scam. anyone who has bought can sell at good profit, so again i ask where is the scam?

You  will hold until $0 because you're ignorant while vitaly and team finish dumping on you

Bitpop still butthurt....  
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=388169.0;imode

I've gotten more Bitcoin, what's that have to do with ethf?

Stay delusional but the truth is people like mrpumper were dumping on you while they pumped and now they're gone and you're holding the bag

It serves as much purpose as your pollution on this thread..
 
Why would it concern you if we support Vitalik and the ethereum project or not?

[IncludeBeer]

ETC will have limited supply. Ethf has unlimited token supply, unlimited forks, unlimited inflation and pos will be the final nail in the coffin. Vitaly is a criminal.

What is the problem of POS? inflation?

That plus it's the definition of a ponzi. The top holders will get free tokens for life at the expense of new entrants and then constantly dump on new investors.

I don't think you know what a ponzi scheme is, then.

From Wikipedia: A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒn.zi/; also a Ponzi game)[1] is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.

Given this actual definition of a ponzie scheme, how exactly is PoS implementation on a public blockchain a ponzi, and how does that make "Vitaly a criminal"?

Note: I'm not expecting bitpop to actually be able to answer this.  Rarely, in the face of rational and logical reasoning, has he been able to say anything that amounts to more than just fud.

is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.

Care to answer any of those questions I posed bitpop? Or all you can do is repeat what I said?

It's the definition of a ponzi, there are no questions. And vitaly owning a ponzi makes him a criminal.

Lol we quite definitively established that it's not the definition of a ponzi, by the fucking definition itself!   You do speak English, right? I'll break it down for you:

• a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors: Vitalik is neither the operator, individual, nor organization who is paying returns to investors.
• ...from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources.: PoS rewards are not issued from capital paid to the operators by the new investors.  These rewards are generated via the protocol, in exchange for miners processing transactions and minting new blocks.
• Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.:  PoS implementation in no way solicits abnormally high short-term returns on investment.  Certainly no more than PoW does.  The currently expected numbers in the latest Muave paper from Vitalik prove this.

Maybe...you don't understand how PoS works?   I mean, you know that the person with the highest stake doesn't always get to mine the next block, right?  IMO, the proposed Casper implementation is very creative and elegant solution to that particular problem (Block selection variants).  

So,

Care to answer any of those questions I posed bitpop? Or all you can do is repeat what I said?

I'm still waiting for you to back up your statements, bitpop?  Can you?

[becoin]

Zcash was a known scam because ver is a known scammer. Vitaly got lucky scamming because he was new

how he scammed? I heard that the price hit 70x of ICO price...

Fake hype, bad technology, pump and dump

however it's still keeping the pretty high price  ;-)

What will you say when it drops below ICO price?