[Havelock] Bitcoin Difficulty Derivative (BDD)

[eltopo]

The market value column in the portfolio should display the value I have if I would sell my shares; therefor the bid price would be the one to calculate with.

[twentyseventy]

I don't want to bother you again with asking what auto-exchange is doing. I know you would like to see this feature introduced yourself, but it seems it won't happen in the not to distant future. Weeks ago I asked Havelock to add a column in the funds overview page (5 min work), and they answered they are already reworking the page. Guess what happens... nothing.

So if you want to add your 2% fee the next round, I would have no problems with it.

Yep, they are working on it - I followed up on it was this past week. I've been told that it's at the top of the to-do list, but that's also been its on-again, off-again priority for the last month.

I appreciate the vote of approval on the management fee; I'm going to try to stick it out a little longer to try and make good on the community's wish to get Auto-EXCH implemented before the fee. I'll put the 'motion' out to everyone again if this does end up being the case.

And, if it does, I promise to send an email every other day to Havelock about it with lots of capital letters and exclamations points  - only half kidding, /u/havelock 

[twentyseventy]

I'll be away from the computer for most of the day today, so the report will be posted later this afternoon or early this evening. I'll be able to do exchanges as needed from my phone; MINE dividends will be paid normally.

[twentyseventy]

Period 7, Day 1 Report - April 6, 2014

Balance Post Divs: BTC 437.78809153

Total Units: 5373

NAV/U: BTC 0.08147926


Big volume in the last day!

[twentyseventy]

Period 7, Day 2 Report - April 7, 2014

Balance Post Divs: BTC 438.46498661

Total Units: 5408

NAV/U: BTC 0.08107710

[Pentax]

can you post or PM me the most current contracts for B.Mine and B.Sell

thanks

[twentyseventy]

can you post or PM me the most current contracts for B.Mine and B.Sell

thanks

The most current contract is actually in the OP of this thread. You can see the bottom of the OP post what changes have been made and on what dates. Let me know if you have any questions or need any clarification.

I've been waiting to update the Contract on Havelock for when the Auto-EXCH is completed; it's obviously taking longer than expected.

[twentyseventy]

I've a work engagement Tuesday/Wed/Thurs of this week, so the report will be delayed until around lunchtime or until the evening each day. I have my phone so I will be doing exchanges there as needed. There was a large purchase of EXCH last night, I've contacted the user to ensure that they understand how MINE and SELL works before doing the exchange. I wouldn't normally do that, but this order would represent about +40% of the fund's current total on hand.

[eltopo]

Havelock trade engine doesn't seem to work since hours. Not a single trade today in all securities.

[Pentax]

How is the Annual Yield on Havelock for these funds calculated?

[twentyseventy]

I've a work engagement Tuesday/Wed/Thurs of this week, so the report will be delayed until around lunchtime or until the evening each day. I have my phone so I will be doing exchanges there as needed. There was a large purchase of EXCH last night, I've contacted the user to ensure that they understand how MINE and SELL works before doing the exchange. I wouldn't normally do that, but this order would represent about +40% of the fund's current total on hand.

Holy crap, I see what you're talking about. Someone purchased 2120 units at    ฿0.08299776   , with a total value of ฿175.9553.
That is a large purchase indeed! Great addition of value to the fund though

Quite a large order indeed! It represents an addition of over 1BTC of additional reserve to the fund (remember that .4% goes to havelock for the exch fee and .6% goes to the fund Reserve).  I've confirmed that the user understand the security and have transferred the shares to him.

Too bad I'm not taking my 2% management fee yet

As eltopo said, it looks like the trading engine is halted for all securities ATM.

[twentyseventy]

How is the Annual Yield on Havelock for these funds calculated?

That's a great question, I'm not sure actually. I've asked HL to remove that for the BDD funds, but it didn't happen.

Trading re enabled by HL.

[Korbman]

How is the Annual Yield on Havelock for these funds calculated?

That's a great question, I'm not sure actually. [...]

If I remember correctly, it's something like this:
A = Currently price per unit
B = Last Dividend per unit
C = How often after dividends paid. 12 = once per month, 365 = once per day, 52 = once per week, etc.

[(B * C) / A] * 100 = APY in %

For example, with B.MINE:
[(0.00041088 * 365) / 0.032] * 100 = 468.66%

With AM1:
[(0.000065 * 52) / 0.60] * 100 = 0.5633%

In reality, it sort of breaks based on how Havelock determines the timeframe. For me, paying every 2 weeks means 26 periods...an APY of about 43.3% at current prices...but for whatever reason Havelock calculates it as if it were only 12 periods per year. 

And for the Difficulty Derivative, it's even more skewed since the overall timeframe of the asset doesn't reach one year anyway.

[twentyseventy]

Period 7, Day 3 Report - April 8, 2014

Balance Post Divs: BTC 617.94440817     BTC 617.86174240

Total Units: 7616

NAV/U: BTC 0.08113765     BTC 0.08112680



NAV/U actually increased today due to the large sale of EXCH! Thanks to Korbman for the "APR" analysis - though, as he said, this doesn't apply to BDD because it's not a stock/bond like most of the other funds traded on HL.

EDIT: Per the note below; this day's reported Balance was too over-reported by the value of one share, making the NAV/U very slightly higher than it should have been. No funds were lost/gained because of this small error on my part.

[twentyseventy]

Period 7, Day 4 Report - April 9, 2014

Balance Post Divs: BTC 617.61140144

Total Units: 7651

NAV/U: BTC 0.08072296


The 'Balance Post Divs' was over-reported yesterday by the value of one share (617.86174240 vs. 617.94440817) due to my error (I used the balance one row too high, after one sale of EXCH had taken place) and, consequently, the NAV/U was very slightly over-reported. The amount is very minimal on a per-unit basis, but I want to have all my ducks in a row. I have corrected this in yesterday's report above. There were no buy-backs yesterday, so there is no loss or gain to the Fund itself; apologies for the mistake.

[twentyseventy]

Regarding the Management Fee

After a lot of thought, I'm re-proposing instituting the 2% Management Fee.

Since the management fee will primarily affect arbitrageurs (those who normally purchase EXCH most often), the original plan was to institute the fee after I had successfully gotten Havelock to get the Auto-EXCH functionality in place. Unfortunately, despite my repeated attempts, it still is not ready and I am consequently doing the transfers by hand. This, understandably, takes time out of my day to do this, as does the daily reporting.

I've been in constant contact with Havelock regarding the Auto-Exchange function and I'm assured that they're working on it. However, it has been over a month since it was first planned to be ready and still is yet to be seen.

So, I'd like the community to look at the Fund Management Fee as compensation for my time to do the exchanges by hand and for the daily reporting. I do still have motivation to get Havelock to complete the Auto-EXCH function - I'll no longer have to do the exchanges by hand! I pledge to keep on them about it, as I want it as much or more than you do, rest assured.

Unless I see significant push-back here on the forums, I will plan to institute the fee at the beginning of next Period (about a week from today).

The fee will be only on new sales of EXCH; the EXCH price calculation is now NAV/U + 1% (of that 1%, 0.4%  goes to Havelock for the exchange fee and 0.6% back to the Fund itself).

The EXCH price calculation would then be NAV/U + 3% (of that, 0.4% to Havelock, 0.6% to the Fund, and 2% to myself as the Manager). The management fee would be paid on a per-Period basis.

So, thanks to eltopo for the support already voiced above; please let me know if anyone here has serious objections to this or questions about it.

Thanks to everyone for making BDD such a success thus far 

[junkonator]

If the fee starts so soon then it would really be only cost for arbitrageurs and no benefit.

There are many people here running their own bots and capable of doing the autoexchange. Why not let the bot writers help out? If this is public on github then it would be easy to check that there's no manipulation going on by the writers, too.

So arbitrageurs what do you think?

[twentyseventy]

If the fee starts so soon then it would really be only cost for arbitrageurs and no benefit.

There are many people here running their own bots and capable of doing the autoexchange. Why not let the bot writers help out? If this is public on github then it would be easy to check that there's no manipulation going on by the writers, too.

So arbitrageurs what do you think?

Well, I see it less as a cost with no benefit and more of a realigning of the compensation for my management of the fund. Arbitrageurs have in effect been getting a 'discount' on my time to be available to do exchanges 17 hours a day, every day, within a relatively short time period. The contract states that exchanges will be performed in 24 hours, but the most that anyone has waited can't be more than maybe four or six hours during my normal waking hours. Usually it's within 1-2 hours and I'll even sometimes do 5 to 10 back to back exchanges for arbitrageurs with a smaller bankroll that have to get the shares, sell one side, and then buy more immediately with those proceeds.

I've definitely thought about a bot, the issue is that HL's API doesn't have fund transfer or buyback functionality. I'm sure it's possible for them to custom write that possibility, but by that time (if they would do it) they would have / could already have completed the Auto-EXCH functionality

Thank you for the input on the matter, I'm still open to any other opinions.

[Pentax]

Regarding the Management Fee

After a lot of thought, I'm re-proposing instituting the 2% Management Fee.

Since the management fee will primarily affect arbitrageurs (those who normally purchase EXCH most often), the original plan was to institute the fee after I had successfully gotten Havelock to get the Auto-EXCH functionality in place. Unfortunately, despite my repeated attempts, it still is not ready and I am consequently doing the transfers by hand. This, understandably, takes time out of my day to do this, as does the daily reporting.

I've been in constant contact with Havelock regarding the Auto-Exchange function and I'm assured that they're working on it. However, it has been over a month since it was first planned to be ready and still is yet to be seen.

So, I'd like the community to look at the Fund Management Fee as compensation for my time to do the exchanges by hand and for the daily reporting. I do still have motivation to get Havelock to complete the Auto-EXCH function - I'll no longer have to do the exchanges by hand! I pledge to keep on them about it, as I want it as much or more than you do, rest assured.

Unless I see significant push-back here on the forums, I will plan to institute the fee at the beginning of next Period (about a week from today).

The fee will be only on new sales of EXCH; the EXCH price calculation is now NAV/U + 1% (of that 1%, 0.4%  goes to Havelock for the exchange fee and 0.6% back to the Fund itself).

The EXCH price calculation would then be NAV/U + 3% (of that, 0.4% to Havelock, 0.6% to the Fund, and 2% to myself as the Manager). The management fee would be paid on a per-Period basis.

So, thanks to eltopo for the support already voiced above; please let me know if anyone here has serious objections to this or questions about it.

Thanks to everyone for making BDD such a success thus far 

it seems fair, although is on the high side of "normal" management fees. 

my only question would be will it roll back when Auto EXCH is implemented? 

if you're spending time manually executing trades, you should be getting paid something, however, if that is the basis for the fee, it should go away when you're no longer spending time manually executing trades.

If it were me, which it isn't, I'd go with 0.5% or so and just keep it there.  There will always be something to do and I don't think anyone would complain about those rates, nor are they likely to influence buying decisions too much. 

When it creeps up past those levels I personally try to find workarounds and it is something that would definitely turn me off.  At that point to make money you've got to climb a hill and can lose even if the market moves in your direction, so the risk increases, a return is more difficult and I'm shopping elsewhere.

But that's me, I'm a frugal mofo that hates fees.  Won't pay em, ground my mortgage down to a nub, negotiated my property taxes down, will drop a vendor at the drop of a hat if they try to jack me up in my business, and realize I'm on the high side of that particular aversion scale.  Others may disagree, which is totally fine, I can only offer my point of view.

[twentyseventy]

it seems fair, although is on the high side of "normal" management fees. 

my only question would be will it roll back when Auto EXCH is implemented? 

if you're spending time manually executing trades, you should be getting paid something, however, if that is the basis for the fee, it should go away when you're no longer spending time manually executing trades.

If it were me, which it isn't, I'd go with 0.5% or so and just keep it there.  There will always be something to do and I don't think anyone would complain about those rates, nor are they likely to influence buying decisions too much. 

When it creeps up past those levels I personally try to find workarounds and it is something that would definitely turn me off.  At that point to make money you've got to climb a hill and can lose even if the market moves in your direction, so the risk increases, a return is more difficult and I'm shopping elsewhere.

But that's me, I'm a frugal mofo that hates fees.  Won't pay em, ground my mortgage down to a nub, negotiated my property taxes down, will drop a vendor at the drop of a hat if they try to jack me up in my business, and realize I'm on the high side of that particular aversion scale.  Others may disagree, which is totally fine, I can only offer my point of view.

I would still consider this on the average / less than average side for fund management. The most direct comparison would be DMS - Deprived was taking a 3% fee where I'll be taking a 2% fee. Another comparisons that I would consider is TAT, back in the day (5% of the AM Passthrough divs). It's not a normal stock/fund, so I can't take 'equity' in the company. If it was, I would definitely be taking more than 2%.

The Management Fee, as I said before, is to compensate me for my time to manage the fund, answer questions, do the math every 10-12 days, issue the daily reports, and issue the Period reports. I, already admittedly, undervalued my time when I started this fund.

The ironic thing about the fee is that some people wanted the fee implemented only after Auto-EXCH and you're actually requesting it be removed when Auto-EXCH is put in force.

However....