[Guide] Dogie's Comprehensive Manufacturer Trustworthiness Guide [1st Feb 2016]

[jimmothy]

And now BFL is buying positive and negative trust ratings in the bitcointalk. Ethically challenged? That should be added to the list of crimes / lies / deceptive practices they employ. Z- is too good for them.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=549403.msg5979745#msg5979745

This reminded me that I completely forgot to ever give BFL a negative trust rating.

[jimmothy]

Sorry for the delay guys, starting a cycle now. This will keep getting edited over the next few days.

Changelog 03/31/2014
Company changes:

• VMC promoted to C due to products being released. Promotion to C+ on independent verification of hardware.

I would actually demote them to an F if anything.

First they tried passing off the hardware they are selling as their own. Now confirmed to be hashfast chips on hashfast boards.

And I wouldn't even be so sure they are shipping anything until their hashfast boards appear in the wild which could be a while since they are charging $6/gh

This is in addition to claims that they are not actually giving out refunds and a plethora of other issues in the past few months.

[dogie]

I would actually demote them to an F if anything.

First they tried passing off the hardware they are selling as their own. Now confirmed to be hashfast chips on hashfast boards.

And I wouldn't even be so sure they are shipping anything until their hashfast boards appear in the wild which could be a while since they are charging $6/gh

This is in addition to claims that they are not actually giving out refunds and a plethora of other issues in the past few months.

My interpretation was the farm is there to provide cloud hashing for customers until the actual chips are ready. They were already quite harshly punished in rating, so C+ is still near the bottom.

[jimmothy]

I would actually demote them to an F if anything.

First they tried passing off the hardware they are selling as their own. Now confirmed to be hashfast chips on hashfast boards.

And I wouldn't even be so sure they are shipping anything until their hashfast boards appear in the wild which could be a while since they are charging $6/gh

This is in addition to claims that they are not actually giving out refunds and a plethora of other issues in the past few months.

My interpretation was the farm is there to provide cloud hashing for customers until the actual chips are ready. They were already quite harshly punished in rating, so C+ is still near the bottom.

Do you really feel confident giving them such a high rating with so little hardware shipped (if any)?

C+ gives the impression they are semi-competent and are delivering hardware but we have no idea if this is the case at this point.

[dogie]

Do you really feel confident giving them such a high rating with so little hardware shipped (if any)?

C+ gives the impression they are semi-competent and are delivering hardware but we have no idea if this is the case at this point.

That's IF they can meet the criteria, on a medium review cycle. We have to give them something, and C isn't really that high:

C = Mid tier firm with problems, or new firm yet to prove products

[jimmothy]

Alright ill accept your judgement even though I have no faith that vmc will deliver without bullshit along the way as has been seen in the past with this company.

But shouldn't they be considered a chip integrator as of  now? Not even designing their own boards to go with their hashfast chips.

[dogie]

Alright ill accept your judgement even though I have no faith that vmc will deliver without bullshit along the way as has been seen in the past with this company.

But shouldn't they be considered a chip integrator as of  now? Not even designing their own boards to go with their hashfast chips.

Strictly both, but their main focus (and preorder money) is as an ASIC manufacturer. We will see how things go, after all this is fluid.

[magzy]

Sorry for the delay guys, starting a cycle now. This will keep getting edited over the next few days.

Changelog 03/31/2014
Company changes:

• VMC promoted to C due to products being released. Promotion to C+ on independent verification of hardware.

I have to protest VMC's promotion to C from D

1. There are no products. Only 1 picture of a hashfast dev board/ empty boxes.
2. Company is taking money for products that don't exists - saying that they are in stock. No pictures of said products. repeated requests to see pictures result in avoidance from Kenneth Slaughter of VMC.
3. I still have yet to receive my refund. I asked for it 4 months ago only to be met with silence, carrot dangling, stalling, douchbaggery and outright lies
4. KS stated in a post "scammers don't do refunds" - and he's right, no one has had a refund or come forward and said that they have had one.
5. His company is being investigated by the office of attorney General ( I have a letter I will post on here stating thus when I get to my computer)

[dogie]

I have to protest VMC's promotion to C from D

1. There are no products. Only 1 picture of a hashfast dev board/ empty boxes.
2. Company is taking money for products that don't exists - saying that they are in stock. No pictures of said products. repeated requests to see pictures result in avoidance from Kenneth Slaughter of VMC.
3. I still have yet to receive my refund. I asked for it 4 months ago only to be met with silence, carrot dangling, stalling, douchbaggery and outright lies
4. KS stated in a post "scammers don't do refunds" - and he's right, no one has had a refund or come forward and said that they have had one.
5. His company is being investigated by the office of attorney General ( I have a letter I will post on here stating thus when I get to my computer)

And I assume you've sued them for the money they owe you right?

[magzy]

I have to protest VMC's promotion to C from D

1. There are no products. Only 1 picture of a hashfast dev board/ empty boxes.
2. Company is taking money for products that don't exists - saying that they are in stock. No pictures of said products. repeated requests to see pictures result in avoidance from Kenneth Slaughter of VMC.
3. I still have yet to receive my refund. I asked for it 4 months ago only to be met with silence, carrot dangling, stalling, douchbaggery and outright lies
4. KS stated in a post "scammers don't do refunds" - and he's right, no one has had a refund or come forward and said that they have had one.
5. His company is being investigated by the office of attorney General ( I have a letter I will post on here stating thus when I get to my computer)

And I assume you've sued them for the money they owe you right?

not sued, just been in contact with the consumer protection division.
I just want my money back but I fear it's been stolen by Kenneth Slaughter.
I would pain myself to see anyone else giving this idiot any money only to have to go through what I have.
It would have been far easier for me to be told the company is bankrupt - at least then I would have closure on the whole depressing episode.

...but no, he's dragging it out and f***ing everyone off in the process while taking in new orders for a product he can't and won't prove exists. "Shipping immediately"? No. I can't stand by knowing there's going to be a new batch of customers who are unwittingly going to be robbed by this scheming charlatan.

His outward proclamations of refunds are blatant lies. Even the coindesk journalist got swindled by him http://www.coindesk.com/mining-hardware-companies-miners-roundup/

These guys should be D or F

[dogie]

Sue them then link me to your court documents, I can't help you otherwise.

[magzy]

Sue them then link me to your court documents, I can't help you otherwise.

Big difficulty in suing, I'm outside of the US.

[magzy]

I contacted Office of the Attorney General Consumer Protection Division in Jefferson City, MO 65102 regarding Virtual Mining:

Got this letter back:

[dogie]

Changelog 04/01/2014
Company changes:

• VMC promoted to C due to products being released. Promotion to C+ on independent verification of hardware.
• CoinTerra demoted to B. Units unable to achieve advertised hash rates.
• HashFast demoted to C+. Batches continue to be delayed.
• Black Arrow demoted to C+. Delaying refunds until first products are shipping.
• Lightning ASIC promoted to B. Shipping in large quantities with no problems. Promotion to B+ if no problems until April 26th.
• BitMine promoted to C+. Communication has improved, commercial parters are running a separate assembly line.
• OneStringMiner set to C. Promotion to B if no problems until April 26th.
• SpondooliesTech set to C+. Promotion to C if no problems until April 19th.
• BlackMiner not added due to their withdrawal from bitcointalk.org.

[kano]

...
BlackMiner not added due to their withdrawal from bitcointalk.org.

I've no idea about BlackMiner, but since BITMAIN won't reply on the forum does that mean they should be removed also?

[dogie]

...
BlackMiner not added due to their withdrawal from bitcointalk.org.

I've no idea about BlackMiner, but since BITMAIN won't reply on the forum does that mean they should be removed also?

There are always about 15 threads on the front page for Bitmain, and they do frequent here even if they don't post often. Their products and services are announced here. BlackMiner has decided they want to have no part to do with the forums.

[kano]

...
BlackMiner not added due to their withdrawal from bitcointalk.org.

I've no idea about BlackMiner, but since BITMAIN won't reply on the forum does that mean they should be removed also?

There are always about 15 threads on the front page for Bitmain, and they do frequent here even if they don't post often. Their products and services are announced here. BlackMiner has decided they want to have no part to do with the forums.

They post, they don't reply.

[dogie]

They post, they don't reply.

I don't understand what you're saying, what Bitmain does and what BlackMiner is doing is totally different.

[magzy]

VMC promoted to C from F in 2 days?? what??

"VMC - Offered and honoured refunds from the start. Products now appearing."

I and others have begging for a refund for 4 f***ing months ffs! I'm on here every day asking Ken where our promised refunds are.


See the following comments in his own thread:
https://encrypted.google.com/#q=site:http://bitcointalk.org/index.php%3Ftopic%3D206488.380+vmc+refund&start=10

More Scam accusations for VMC:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=504424.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=490554.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=533607.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=459861.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=545292.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=377259.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=437671.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361889.0

he publicly states in this news article from 2 March 14 that he has given everyone a refund:
http://www.news-leader.com/article/20140302/BUSINESS04/303020022/Bitcoin-Springfield-mining-machines-Slaughter

The Fact that I and a lot of others haven't got the refund determined this was a lie.

Which posts validate that VMC are issuing refunds?  I can't find any.

Also a "Dev board" from another company which anyone can buy - does this constitute "products appearing"?

[Bicknellski]

Might want to add a new metric

HF decides to screw their customers at every opportunity they get. Why?

Simple answer?  They're broke.  They have chips they've paid for, but they do not have the capital to manufacture and ship complete miners... That's my guess anyways.

They obviously did not have a good plan given all of their failures.

Scammers will scam.

Everybody is entitled to their own interpretation, but I will say this: There is a strong incentive to play bankrupt as long as the statute of limitations keeps their effective liability intact. HashFast draws from a horrific playbook which is somewhat related to the economics of enslavement.

It all starts when you transfer money (something of real value) towards them in exchange for a future commitment. This future commitment gets transformed into something the customer has to "chase", which requires more time and effort and thus degrades their full liability towards an effective liability. They can do that because customers are human beings with a limited amount of time and persistence, and also because there are legal frameworks which allow them to make the hunt very cumbersome and limit the timescale for potential damages. Of course it also helps if the object of the hunt looks undesirable, like in a case of a possible bankruptcy.

It follows that the difference between the full liability and effective liability is an additional profit margin to their business. This is a form of windfall profit they can engineer themselves and thus they do. It still has to be revealed whether they are using that profit margin on top of the one from producing mining equipment or as a replacement. Time will tell.

Question which of these fabricators employ such horrific tactics?


ASICMiner   
Bitmain   
Bitfury   
KNC
Avalon   
CoinTerra   
Lightning ASIC   
SpondooliesTech   
Black Arrow   
Hash Fast   
BitMine   
VMC   
BFL
Drillbit   
Redhash   
Technobit   
BPMC (Dissolved)
One String Miner
Starfire X   
AMT   


Might want to add that to any metric measuring the trustworthiness of a company. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=456691.0

Anyone want to complete the table?

Employ Economics of Enslavement                                                                   Free of Economics of Enslavement

BFL                                                                                                                   KNC
HashFast                                                                                                           One String Miner
                                                                                                                        Bitmain
                                                                                                                        BPMC (Dissolved)