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Author Topic: [Guide] Dogie's Comprehensive Manufacturer Trustworthiness Guide [1st Feb 2016]  (Read 130989 times)
aerobatic
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July 27, 2014, 11:46:54 PM
 #401


Your 'inside information' is either wrong or old.

can you produce or link to any data that shows the relative size of asicminer?

what about just looking at list of mining pools (blockchain.info or organ of corti).  we can see where kncminer is.. we can even see where bitfury might be.  perhaps we can see some of the others.   we also know what bitmain says they are.  if we add up the network percentages that bitfury (40%), bitmain (20%), kncminer (10%?) and a few others (15%?) say they are (and hopefully can prove it someday)... then there's not a lot of unknowns left.  asicminer is a public company.  did they disclose just how big they are?

Let me invite you to do some basic estimation of AM's worth.
Total dividends distributed so far are 0.5911 BTC per share.
Bitfountain, AM parent company, own 236,038 shares.
You do the math.

i dont see how total dividends in any way equates to the company's size.  dividends go to the shareholders !

the total dividend doesnt equate to its revenue, nor its hashpower on the mining network.

so what that last year they made 100,000+ bitcoins in dividends.  thats awesome.. but that was last year.  When they were a major part of the bitcoin mining network.  They were HUGE HUGE HUGE last year.  we all know that.   What about this year?   What about next year!?  they dont appear to be HUGE any longer.

Im doing the math.  BitFountain 'made' 0.5911 * 236,038 bitcoins in total dividends, ever.   Thats 139,522 bitcoins theyve made in profit into BitFountain.   Thats not AsicMiner, thats BitFountain.  And theyve done really really well last year.    AsicMiner no longer has those bitcoins, theyve been dividend'd out to BF.    This year, according to Havelock, the yield (dividend ratio compared to stock price) is 2%... so this year, isnt as good a year as last year (thats an understatement)
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July 28, 2014, 12:57:19 AM
 #402


Your 'inside information' is either wrong or old.

can you produce or link to any data that shows the relative size of asicminer?

what about just looking at list of mining pools (blockchain.info or organ of corti).  we can see where kncminer is.. we can even see where bitfury might be.  perhaps we can see some of the others.   we also know what bitmain says they are.  if we add up the network percentages that bitfury (40%), bitmain (20%), kncminer (10%?) and a few others (15%?) say they are (and hopefully can prove it someday)... then there's not a lot of unknowns left.  asicminer is a public company.  did they disclose just how big they are?

Let me invite you to do some basic estimation of AM's worth.
Total dividends distributed so far are 0.5911 BTC per share.
Bitfountain, AM parent company, own 236,038 shares.
You do the math.

i dont see how total dividends in any way equates to the company's size.  dividends go to the shareholders !

the total dividend doesnt equate to its revenue, nor its hashpower on the mining network.

so what that last year they made 100,000+ bitcoins in dividends.  thats awesome.. but that was last year.  When they were a major part of the bitcoin mining network.  They were HUGE HUGE HUGE last year.  we all know that.   What about this year?   What about next year!?  they dont appear to be HUGE any longer.

Im doing the math.  BitFountain 'made' 0.5911 * 236,038 bitcoins in total dividends, ever.   Thats 139,522 bitcoins theyve made in profit into BitFountain.   Thats not AsicMiner, thats BitFountain.  And theyve done really really well last year.    AsicMiner no longer has those bitcoins, theyve been dividend'd out to BF.    This year, according to Havelock, the yield (dividend ratio compared to stock price) is 2%... so this year, isnt as good a year as last year (thats an understatement)

You just linked us to information suggesting they just spent several million on chip orders....

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July 28, 2014, 01:01:09 AM
 #403


Your 'inside information' is either wrong or old.

can you produce or link to any data that shows the relative size of asicminer?

what about just looking at list of mining pools (blockchain.info or organ of corti).  we can see where kncminer is.. we can even see where bitfury might be.  perhaps we can see some of the others.   we also know what bitmain says they are.  if we add up the network percentages that bitfury (40%), bitmain (20%), kncminer (10%?) and a few others (15%?) say they are (and hopefully can prove it someday)... then there's not a lot of unknowns left.  asicminer is a public company.  did they disclose just how big they are?

Let me invite you to do some basic estimation of AM's worth.
Total dividends distributed so far are 0.5911 BTC per share.
Bitfountain, AM parent company, own 236,038 shares.
You do the math.

i dont see how total dividends in any way equates to the company's size.  dividends go to the shareholders !

the total dividend doesnt equate to its revenue, nor its hashpower on the mining network.

so what that last year they made 100,000+ bitcoins in dividends.  thats awesome.. but that was last year.  When they were a major part of the bitcoin mining network.  They were HUGE HUGE HUGE last year.  we all know that.   What about this year?   What about next year!?  they dont appear to be HUGE any longer.

Im doing the math.  BitFountain 'made' 0.5911 * 236,038 bitcoins in total dividends, ever.   Thats 139,522 bitcoins theyve made in profit into BitFountain.   Thats not AsicMiner, thats BitFountain.  And theyve done really really well last year.    AsicMiner no longer has those bitcoins, theyve been dividend'd out to BF.    This year, according to Havelock, the yield (dividend ratio compared to stock price) is 2%... so this year, isnt as good a year as last year (thats an understatement)

You just linked us to information suggesting they just spent several million on chip orders....

i did.  seems like they spent 5.75m USD on wafer orders.

wonder how many petahash that buys.  suspect its not 60 PH, but that can be next on our list to calculate, now that we've proven that asicminer is no longer a big player on the mining network  (and yes that means they've pivoted their biz model to selling chips).   However, the chip they're selling isn't a competitive one, so as i said before, if they had intended to sell 60 PH when it was gonna be a good chip, we should scale that back now that its an average chip.

i will try and report back soon with how many petahashes they might get for $5.75m usd on wafer purchases.


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July 28, 2014, 01:09:24 AM
 #404

You just linked us to information suggesting they just spent several million on chip orders....

just trying to do back of the envelope calcs... for them to buy 60 PH for $5.75m would mean buying circa 10 petahash per $1m.. which seems a little cheap.  If they're able to retail the chips for $1/gh (or lowest cost, over time, they said would be $0.5/gh), i don't think they have a 10x margin in there.. not even 5x.   lets assume 2x at most... so $5.75m probably bought them 30 PH and maybe i concede best case 60 PH and more likely 30-40 PH IMHO.

also, what we don't know is if that is just the wafer cost, or whether it includes all the other things you need to make a chip (substrate, packaging, testing etc)

i think its safe to say that buying each petahash for less than $0.2M/PH is pretty good going.   For it to be less than $0.1/PH would be lower than the lowest price i've ever heard of.  not impossible, but seriously unlikely.

And you've got to factor in whether they can SELL them, since their new biz model is selling chips, not mining... thus they need to find punters for 60 PH... of lousy chips that aren't competitive.  Heck, they're almost double the power of KnCMiner's latest chips and even after Spondoolies announces what their final specs will be, i suspect the AM chip isn't as power efficient as a SP chip... thus for AM to sell so many petahashes of an inefficient and power hungry chip will be very good going.

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July 28, 2014, 01:20:22 AM
 #405

Getting OT now. ASICminer is huge.

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July 28, 2014, 01:35:06 AM
 #406

Dogie, how can you possible give AMT a 10/10 for delivered miners? They delivered broken half ass boxes to some people. Most seem to have received nothing. They swear at their customers, and delete most posts. That should be a 1/10 for communications and ethics. Come on, where is the justification.
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July 28, 2014, 01:42:16 AM
 #407

Dogie, how can you possible give AMT a 10/10 for delivered miners? They delivered broken half ass boxes to some people. Most seem to have received nothing. They swear at their customers, and delete most posts. That should be a 1/10 for communications and ethics. Come on, where is the justification.

Because the criteria is simply have they delivered miners, the answer is yes. Its not how good are they, how reliable are they - each criteria is independent. AMT currently has the lowest score of any company which isnt VMC (which has failed) and BFL, which is BFL.

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July 28, 2014, 02:13:20 AM
 #408

I like the new layout of this thread and updated information.  Keep it updated and current please  Roll Eyes
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July 28, 2014, 02:45:16 AM
 #409

HashFast should have gone with ranking to 0 because they have failed to deliver 95% of equipment and what they delivered was with 6 months delay. Also they are crrently going through bankruptcy court hearings so they literally ceased to exist.

Black Arrow communication ranking shoudl go to zero. They have completely stopped any customer service 2 months ago. They have never answered any phone calls and they have been ignoring any customer's e-mails for last 2 months. They also, every day, on their forum thread they keep cenosring-removing any posts related to seeking any legal action against them.

I can't just mash a company's score to 0. They're listed as bankrupt and no one can even buy anything from them. They will slowly drop off into inactive (which currently isnt in this thread). They're currently joint 3rd last.

Black arrow are around, see above post. I can't punish them for using the moderated forum functionality, there are plenty of non moderated blackarrow threads you can post details about, including their CEO's address.

Dont get me wrong. I find your guide is very helpful and interesting. Thanks for doing it.

Black Arrow: That's interesting that they msged you because they completely ignore every single one of us, customers. They do not answer to tickets and they do not reply on forum. Please check up Black Arrow's thread to see the mess. They have no consideration for any of us whatsoever. The director seem to have been doing his best to cover up any details about his company and negative information about him.

If you don't believe us please read this article. If it is the same person he already has a history of computer fraud on massive scale!
http://web.archive.org/web/20130615084304/http://www.gov.ro/comunicat-de-presa__l1a15869.html

Translation:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.archive.org%2Fweb%2F20130615084304%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gov.ro%2Fcomunicat-de-presa__l1a15869.html&edit-text=

And here is the information about Black Arrow. Their details and address and also director's details. It's a person with exactly the same name:
He is Romanian who moved to UK. His email address is alex27a@gmail.com

Mr Alexandru Ion Sovu
24 Branksome Court
Prospect Street, Reading
RGI 7XR
Berskshire, UK

All paperwork info can be found in the links below:
http://www.kiwi.nz/blackarrow/PS300015776549_01.pdf
http://www.kiwi.nz/blackarrow/

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July 28, 2014, 06:39:54 AM
 #410

Bitfury's mine is not directly competing with their customers because they're two separate things entirely - they raised $10M for a farm. They don't have preorders waiting.

Why then has bitfury and asicminer received deductions in ethics?

Technically AM's farm was mining for the public.
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July 28, 2014, 07:19:34 AM
 #411

Bitfury's mine is not directly competing with their customers because they're two separate things entirely - they raised $10M for a farm. They don't have preorders waiting.

Why then has bitfury and asicminer received deductions in ethics?

Technically AM's farm was mining for the public.
Everyone with a farm receives a deduction for a farm, including bitmain (soon).

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July 28, 2014, 12:36:29 PM
 #412


In order of size of company, i suspect a more realistic list would be:   BitFury is 1st, KnCMiner 2nd, Bitmain 3rd, Cointerra 4th, etc..    this size rating probably works regardless of whether you measure by petahash or revenue.  I doubt asicminer is even relevant at this time.  They're no longer Huge.  They were HUGE when the network was less than 1 Petahash - now they're a minnow - and got left behind when the others designed better chips.

Your 'inside information' is either wrong or old.

You do know that BitFury recently raised $20m on a valuation of $250m, and is thus a $270m valuation company - the largest bitcoin company ever..!  and that they're considering an IPO early next year!

BitFury also has the largest private mine of any company.  Probably more than 20 PH already.   And they claim to be currently powering 40% of the bitcoin mining network (140 PH, thus 40% is 56 PH).  That includes both chips they've sold, AND their own private mine.

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-mining-giant-bitfury-announces-20-million-funding-round/

-- Jez
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July 28, 2014, 12:48:59 PM
 #413

Quote
And they claim to be currently powering 40% of the bitcoin mining network

Source?
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July 28, 2014, 12:51:52 PM
 #414


In order of size of company, i suspect a more realistic list would be:   BitFury is 1st, KnCMiner 2nd, Bitmain 3rd, Cointerra 4th, etc..    this size rating probably works regardless of whether you measure by petahash or revenue.  I doubt asicminer is even relevant at this time.  They're no longer Huge.  They were HUGE when the network was less than 1 Petahash - now they're a minnow - and got left behind when the others designed better chips.

Your 'inside information' is either wrong or old.

raised $20m on a valuation of $250m, and is thus a $270m valuation company

Thats not how a valuation works 0_o

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July 28, 2014, 01:04:32 PM
 #415

Exact valuation aside, I am certain nobody will contest that Bitfury is probably the biggest player in the asic mining industry.

They have easily produced the most hashpower and have enormous profits.

They also seem to be holding the highest percentage of the network.

They have been the nearly uncontested leader in W/GH right till the Neptune, even though they were on 55nm all the time.
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July 28, 2014, 01:09:11 PM
 #416

Exact valuation aside, I am certain nobody will contest that Bitfury is probably the biggest player in the asic mining industry.

They have easily produced the most hashpower and have enormous profits.

They also seem to be holding the highest percentage of the network.

Source?
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July 28, 2014, 02:22:26 PM
 #417

AMT ethics?  5/10 ... utterly ridiculous... should be 0/10.

They have no proof that they delivered a working model to anyone.

They sent a bounced check to their original manufacturer.

They shipped broken equipment to their users.

They never accepted RMA from anyone.

They don't even have a legit office!

As with the post a few up, I can't punish them for an ethics infraction which doesn't exist yet in the guide, and we don't actually have proof for. In the future they may be hurt with the addition of a 'legal action' infraction. They have/did have working models, I've seen them.

There is no evidence of a working 1.2 THs that has not failed.  Can you point me to one?

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July 28, 2014, 03:15:47 PM
 #418

AMT ethics?  5/10 ... utterly ridiculous... should be 0/10.

They have no proof that they delivered a working model to anyone.

They sent a bounced check to their original manufacturer.

They shipped broken equipment to their users.

They never accepted RMA from anyone.

They don't even have a legit office!

As with the post a few up, I can't punish them for an ethics infraction which doesn't exist yet in the guide, and we don't actually have proof for. In the future they may be hurt with the addition of a 'legal action' infraction. They have/did have working models, I've seen them.

There is no evidence of a working 1.2 THs that has not failed.  Can you point me to one?


That's not what the delivered criteria is for. They delivered a miner. It sucked, that's why they get 1/10 elsewhere, and one of the lowest ratings of any company.

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July 28, 2014, 03:58:52 PM
Last edit: July 29, 2014, 06:19:10 AM by gmaxwell
 #419

I still think btcgardens rating is way too low.

Here's how I would rate them:

BTCGarden (jimmothy rating)Product lines:                                                                                                                            Company Site | Bitcointalk Thread
AMV1
___________________________________________________________                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Rating:
88
Uses own chips?
Delivered miners?
Uses preorders?
Mixed
Yes
No
8/10
10/10
20/20
On time?
Quality Issues?
Refund Issues?
Yes
Very Minor
No
10/10
8/10
10/10
Communication
Ethics
Size
Good
F
Large
7/10
8/10
7/10
Last Score: 73Integrator of ASICMiner's chips. Very few problems with DOA rates and communication.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________________ __

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________________ __


Also did you forget avalon?
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July 28, 2014, 05:07:24 PM
 #420

These ratings don't make sense.  Case and point, ASICMiner is #1, but no longer ships any miners, only chips.  However, you ding a company like RockMiner with 1/10 on using own chips BECAUSE they use ASICMiner chips, your #1 rated company...  

BTW, ASICMiner should be #1, but why ding other companies who use their chips?
this is flawed.
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