Livecoin.net Scam

[TECSHARE]

Tag me, flag me, any way you want me .

I'll be working towards finding a solution and trying to mend LiveCoins reputation as that seems like more of a challenge than just pointing fingers and exercising a feeling of power. But that might just be me, as long as I'm on DT (I've messaged theymos about blacklisting me) I will counter any negative given to participants in the LiveCoin campaign.

I might share any updates in this thread, the campaign thread or somewhere else but as of right now it's back to work.

As I suspected, your request to be blacklisted from the default trust was a preemptive action to compensate for the criticism you knew you were going to get for continuing to support this exchange for your personal profit. How much exactly was your reputation worth Hhampuz?

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[izooomrud]

When the Dayun Zig Z1 was produced for the Lyra2Rev2 algorithm, I was an investor of crypto currency called Hdac that used L2R2 algorithm.

At that time, we warned both Hdac and Monacoin about this, but both crypto currencies didn’t change their algorithm despite the increased HashRate and allowed 51% attack.

Mona’s developers were very irresponsible, they didn’t take any action to prevent this. If necessary, I can prove that I was an investor of Hdac. I think, Livecoin is not guilty. For now I will continue to wear Livecoin's signature.

And, i'm so sorry about you. I will share percent of 10% my signature earnings with you, if you can’t solve this.

The exchange is responsible for our money, so it needs to monitor the network status of all its coins. If the state of the network does not inspire confidence, then increase the number of confirmations to enter and then the attack of 51% will not be terrible

[izooomrud]

I'm going to cut the Livecoin participants some slack, for now. As I have testified before, the Livecoin signature was a hard one to drop. Part of me still even regrets my decision. While I was contemplating whether I should stay or leave the campaign, I must have come up with a thousand and one justifications to stay. However, in the end, it just didn't feel right for me.

Thanks for your decision, you are a very decent person.

[Hhampuz]

Tag me, flag me, any way you want me .

I'll be working towards finding a solution and trying to mend LiveCoins reputation as that seems like more of a challenge than just pointing fingers and exercising a feeling of power. But that might just be me, as long as I'm on DT (I've messaged theymos about blacklisting me) I will counter any negative given to participants in the LiveCoin campaign.

I might share any updates in this thread, the campaign thread or somewhere else but as of right now it's back to work.

As I suspected, your request to be blacklisted from the default trust was a preemptive action to compensate for the criticism you knew you were going to get for continuing to support this exchange for your personal profit. How much exactly was your reputation worth Hhampuz?

You create the narrative anyhow you want it tecshare, but then again were you not accusing me of trying to distract from this scam accusation? What exactly is it you are doing now?

To answer your question though, I'd say my reputation was is worth more than yours so 

[izooomrud]

You create the narrative anyhow you want it tecshare, but then again were you not accusing me of trying to distract from this scam accusation? What exactly is it you are doing now?

To answer your question though, I'd say my reputation was is worth more than yours so 

At the moment, the only way to influence these scammers, who behave very arrogantly, is the flag, but you support them, I do not understand why

[TECSHARE]

Tag me, flag me, any way you want me .

I'll be working towards finding a solution and trying to mend LiveCoins reputation as that seems like more of a challenge than just pointing fingers and exercising a feeling of power. But that might just be me, as long as I'm on DT (I've messaged theymos about blacklisting me) I will counter any negative given to participants in the LiveCoin campaign.

I might share any updates in this thread, the campaign thread or somewhere else but as of right now it's back to work.

As I suspected, your request to be blacklisted from the default trust was a preemptive action to compensate for the criticism you knew you were going to get for continuing to support this exchange for your personal profit. How much exactly was your reputation worth Hhampuz?

You create the narrative anyhow you want it tecshare, but then again were you not accusing me of trying to distract from this scam accusation? What exactly is it you are doing now?

To answer your question though, I'd say my reputation was is worth more than yours so 

Not distract from this scam accusation, distract from the incoming wave of criticism bound to be directed at you for your involvement with them. I wouldn't know how much my reputation is worth, because mine is not for sale. You be mad at me if you like for pointing this out, but we both know you are doing this to yourself by avoiding the hard choices with little default trust games. More rules for thee but not for me right? Suddenly you see the value in people being left the fuck alone now that it is your turn don't you?

[Quickseller]

I get it, a lot of income is on the line for people who can't afford to lose it.  I empathize, and for that reason I won't be tagging anyone participating the sig campaign.

I would think this would be exactly why someone should get tagged— they are receiving money in order to effectively vouch for someone they know to be a scammer. They have been pointed out that they are advertising for a scammer and have not disagreed with the conclusion.

I think it's worth giving people some time to come to those conclusions for themselves.  I may change my mind about this in the future, but for now I am not tagging the participants of the sig campaign.  Many have been participating for weeks, and jumping in and tagging them this early in the process would be heartless, and very likely counter productive to the overall health of the community.  It's not my intention to bash people over the head for promoting something that weeks later turns out to be a fraud.

The first step to an amicable resolution is to convince LiveCoin to make things right with their clients, and revise their terms of service to comply with the laws of the countries where they operate.  If LiveCoin refuses to make these concessions then it's time to request that the signature campaign be put to rest.  Only then would it be right to start tagging people who continue to promote known fraudsters.

I believe the time to stop advertising for LiveCoin was when there was sufficient evidence to support the flag against them, or perhaps very shortly thereafter if they quickly resolve the issue, which I would say has already elapsed. If LiveCoin were to resolve the issue, it would then become appropriate to resume advertising for them, if desired.

I would give participants some time to reach the conclusion they LiveCoin has in fact scammed the OP, so they can review the evidence. I have notified every participant in the campaign of the scam accusation, that there is a valid flag, and that LiveCoin has admitted to sufficient facts to conclude that they are scamming the OP, so they cannot claim ignorance.  I am not sure what the appropriate amount of time to wait would be, however the next payment for participants is on Tuesday, and I believe that would exceed the amount of reasonable time to decide to stop advertising for LiveCoin -- this is in part based on that once payment is received, they have crossed the line into receiving payment for advertising a scam.

My notification to participants that they are advertising a scam was not taken kindly. I was effectively cussed out by some in the German sub, received negative trust from babo for what can only be described as retaliation for asking participants to consider stopping advertising for LiveCoin, and some users are trying to get me banned for trying to stop them from advertising a scam. None of this will prevent me from doing the right thing. All of those who are taking affirmative actions to try to prevent and/or punish me from pointing out they are advertising a scam are, in my view inherently untrustworthy -- these people are aware they are advertising a scam and are taking affirmative steps to silence criticism of this fact.   

[izooomrud]

i love math so much
because math can explane everything and raise logic

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/monacoin/ monacoin value = 2 euro

750 x 2 = 1500 euro


and, my logic said... an exchange scam 1500 euro?

@izooomrud you think we are stupids? an exchage if want do a REAL scam, do exit scam or steal MORE than 1500 euro


we can use the logic
if i'm an exchange, i do'nt steal 1500 euros and risk a scam accusation
if i want to do a scam, i'm going to exit scam (like other exchange) or simulate a fake hacker steal

it is not correct. In addition to the coins, they stole about 0.08btc from me. And most importantly, when they give me my  of MONA coins that they have lost due to their negligence, many others will also want a refund. Therefore, they do not return them to me under any pretext. And the return of all debts is much more than 1500 euros

[DireWolfM14]

My notification to participants that they are advertising a scam was not taken kindly.

The way some some people are reacting to this issue is appalling, and those folks will suffer ramifications.  Yes, some are refusing to acknowledge that a scam took place because the amount of money involved wan't enough, or simply ignoring the fact that LiveCoin admitted to the allegations presented by the OP of this thread, or attacking the OP for trusting an exchange to store funds (an exchange they promote.)  It reminds me of the three phases of acceptance: Denial, anger, and finally acceptance.  It's hard for some of us to logically accept a change that will hurt.  Losing income is a hard thing to accept, and some will lash out when faced with the prospect.  None the less, the content of those people's character is being exposed, and I believe the system will reward them accordingly.

As for my actions: For now I'll commend people like Bones261 for making what I believe is the right choice, and refrain from deriding those who continue to participate in the sig campaign.  The decision is mine to make.  You are free to start tagging people for participating, and I'm free to wait.

I think Suchmoon put it quite eloquently; rooting for Hhampuz while not holding her breath.  

[johhnyUA]

i love math so much
because math can explane everything and raise logic

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/monacoin/ monacoin value = 2 euro

750 x 2 = 1500 euro


and, my logic said... an exchange scam 1500 euro?

@izooomrud you think we are stupids? an exchage if want do a REAL scam, do exit scam or steal MORE than 1500 euro


we can use the logic
if i'm an exchange, i do'nt steal 1500 euros and risk a scam accusation
if i want to do a scam, i'm going to exit scam (like other exchange) or simulate a fake hacker steal

You're right.
All this looks like blackmailing rather than "scamming OP".

Let's watch in this situation step by step:
OP bought 750 MONA coins one year ago. After 51 % attack on MONA network he became active again (through some period of time) and starts to claim for coins withdrawal . After he got rejected, he went to bestchange.ru and here and starts to blackmail exchange. Livecoin of course doesn't right to, because they blocked him (and most negative feedbacks from forum members because of that fact) and refered to some "user agreement".
Very suspicious situation as for me. Because of such things:
1. OP wants TO WITHDRAW coins. Not to refund them, not to sell or somethings. Mostly, ordinary people don't act in such ways. They want their money back, not "withdraw".

2.  OP writes from a group of people

As long as there are people with the same opinion as yours, we will have exchanges, such as livecoin.

Really, "we"? "WE"? Who is that "We"?

3. Interesting fact about one way to attack different exchanges:

Heдaвнo yзнaл пpo eщё oдин cпocoб кидaлoвa, нo в ocнoвнoм иcпoльзyeтcя для вopoвcтвa y биpж, a нe y oтдeльнo взятыx тpeйдepoв. Ho знaть пpo этoт cпocoб нyжнo, чтoбы нeнapoкoм нe влoшитьcя и нe пoтepять нa пocлeдcтвияx.

Кидaлoвo чepeз aтaкy 51%

Cyть cлeдyющaя: выбиpaeтcя кpиптa co cлaбым xэшpeйтoм или cпeциaльнo coздaётcя пoд этy зaдaчy шитфopк. Пpoвoдитcя aтaкa 51%, пepвoнaчaльнo cкpытнo, зaвoдятcя нa биpжy aтaкyeмыe мoнeты, пpoдaютcя зa твёpдый aктив c пocлeдyющим eгo вывoдoм. Дaлee пyбликyeтcя бoлee длиннaя цeпoчкa и oтмeняeтcя пepвoнaчaльный ввoд нa биpжy aтaкyeмыx мoнeт, т. e. идёт кидaлoвo биpжи - им пpoдaли вoздyx зa BTC.

Пocлe тaкoгo мoжeт yпacть кypc, в зaвиcимocти oт peзoнaнca. Кaк былo, нaпpимep, c Кaлcикoм нa Eбитe. Биpжи пo-paзнoмy бopятcя c дaнным явлeниeм: пoвышaют cтoимocть лиcтингa, пpoвoдят oцeнкy нaмepeний пpи лиcтингe, ввoдят пoвышeннoe чиcлo пoдтвepждeний. Taкжи oтключaют кoшeльки нa ввoд-вывoд пocлe фaктa (ИMXO мёpтвoмy пpипapoк).

Ho пpoблeмa cepьёзнaя и cпocoбнa тeopeтичecки oбpyшaть цeлыe биpжи. Зaцeнитe цифpy: Лaйвкoин пoтepялa лям зeлeни из-зa oшибки в кoшeлькe Moнepo, кoгдa зaвeли пo фaктy в 10 paз мeньшe мoнep, чeм нapиcoвaл из-зa oшибки кoшeлёк Moнepы.

Translation of selected part:
"The point: Cryptocurrency with weak hashrate is chosen (or creates) for such attack. Attack 51 % took place, covertly at first, compromised coins is sends to exchanger and sells for btc (or something valuable). Then scammer withdrawing btc and after that he publiches corrupted chain and compromised coins dissapear from exchanger history. In fact, scammer sold air to exchanger"

One moment: to sell big amount of shitcoins you need at first increase trading volume and adjacent things. That means that some "clean" coins still stored on exchange (they were used for such things) and maybe scammer want them back too. In that case he will use earlier prepared accounts with claims to open withdrawal.

Not excluded that we are witnesses of such scenario.

[Hhampuz]

Not distract from this scam accusation, distract from the incoming wave of criticism bound to be directed at you for your involvement with them. I wouldn't know how much my reputation is worth, because mine is not for sale. You be mad at me if you like for pointing this out, but we both know you are doing this to yourself by avoiding the hard choices with little default trust games. More rules for thee but not for me right? Suddenly you see the value in people being left the fuck alone now that it is your turn don't you?

I'm so happy that at this point of my life I can't even be bothered with the forum any longer.  All you do, all day long, is twist peoples words to try and make them go mad, perhaps you have succeeded with me Tecshare, as right now all I can do is laugh when I read your posts. I actually think you are quite funny and you provide some quality content around these parts. But let's bring this back on topic and either continue bashing livecoin or try and find a solution .

[kenzawak]

2.  OP writes from a group of people

As long as there are people with the same opinion as yours, we will have exchanges, such as livecoin.

Really, "we"? "WE"? Who is that "We"?

"We" is everybody, the people, you, me, your neighbors...
Are you that dumb or just pretending here ?

[bones261]

You're right.
All this looks like blackmailing rather than "scamming OP".

Let's watch in this situation step by step:
OP bought 750 MONA coins one year ago. After 51 % attack on MONA network he became active again (through some period of time) and starts to claim for coins withdrawal . After he got rejected, he went to bestchange.ru and here and starts to blackmail exchange. Livecoin of course doesn't right to, because they blocked him (and most negative feedbacks from forum members because of that fact) and refered to some "user agreement".
Very suspicious situation as for me. Because of such things:
1. OP wants TO WITHDRAW coins. Not to refund them, not to sell or somethings. Mostly, ordinary people don't act in such ways. They want their money back, not "withdraw".

2.  OP writes from a group of people

As long as there are people with the same opinion as yours, we will have exchanges, such as livecoin.

Really, "we"? "WE"? Who is that "We"?

3. Interesting fact about one way to attack different exchanges:

Heдaвнo yзнaл пpo eщё oдин cпocoб кидaлoвa, нo в ocнoвнoм иcпoльзyeтcя для вopoвcтвa y биpж, a нe y oтдeльнo взятыx тpeйдepoв. Ho знaть пpo этoт cпocoб нyжнo, чтoбы нeнapoкoм нe влoшитьcя и нe пoтepять нa пocлeдcтвияx.

Кидaлoвo чepeз aтaкy 51%

Cyть cлeдyющaя: выбиpaeтcя кpиптa co cлaбым xэшpeйтoм или cпeциaльнo coздaётcя пoд этy зaдaчy шитфopк. Пpoвoдитcя aтaкa 51%, пepвoнaчaльнo cкpытнo, зaвoдятcя нa биpжy aтaкyeмыe мoнeты, пpoдaютcя зa твёpдый aктив c пocлeдyющим eгo вывoдoм. Дaлee пyбликyeтcя бoлee длиннaя цeпoчкa и oтмeняeтcя пepвoнaчaльный ввoд нa биpжy aтaкyeмыx мoнeт, т. e. идёт кидaлoвo биpжи - им пpoдaли вoздyx зa BTC.

Пocлe тaкoгo мoжeт yпacть кypc, в зaвиcимocти oт peзoнaнca. Кaк былo, нaпpимep, c Кaлcикoм нa Eбитe. Биpжи пo-paзнoмy бopятcя c дaнным явлeниeм: пoвышaют cтoимocть лиcтингa, пpoвoдят oцeнкy нaмepeний пpи лиcтингe, ввoдят пoвышeннoe чиcлo пoдтвepждeний. Taкжи oтключaют кoшeльки нa ввoд-вывoд пocлe фaктa (ИMXO мёpтвoмy пpипapoк).

Ho пpoблeмa cepьёзнaя и cпocoбнa тeopeтичecки oбpyшaть цeлыe биpжи. Зaцeнитe цифpy: Лaйвкoин пoтepялa лям зeлeни из-зa oшибки в кoшeлькe Moнepo, кoгдa зaвeли пo фaктy в 10 paз мeньшe мoнep, чeм нapиcoвaл из-зa oшибки кoшeлёк Moнepы.

Translation of selected part:
"The point: Cryptocurrency with weak hashrate is chosen (or creates) for such attack. Attack 51 % took place, covertly at first, compromised coins is sends to exchanger and sells for btc (or something valuable). Then scammer withdrawing btc and after that he publiches corrupted chain and compromised coins dissapear from exchanger history. In fact, scammer sold air to exchanger"

One moment: to sell big amount of shitcoins you need at first increase trading volume and adjacent things. That means that some "clean" coins still stored on exchange (they were used for such things) and maybe scammer want them back too. In that case he will use earlier prepared accounts with claims to open withdrawal.

Not excluded that we are witnesses of such scenario.

  How on Earth is demanding to withdraw coins that you purchased, "blackmail?" This is like going into a store, purchasing a product, and then the store refuses to let you leave with the product that you just purchased. Is it blackmail if that customer then proceeds to write a scathing review on Yelp? I think not. If Livecoin does not want to allow withdrawals on Mona or Monero because they now have a fractional reserve due to the acts of malicious miners and vulnerability exploiters, then the right course of action is to suspend trading as well, until they can come up with a resolution to the issue. The right course of action is not to continue to allow people to trade the asset and profit off of it indefinitely. Furthermore, since both of these assets are trading much lower on their exchange, it is quite possible that Livecoin is buying the asset for a discount oin their own exchange and then selling the asset on another exchange for a huge profit. Due to Monero being a privacy coin, they could probably get away with this. I certainly hope that Livecoin is not resorting to such measures. However, they need to suspend trading, and come up with another resolution to solve their insolvency issue with both of these assets. Enough time has passed; so it is clear that neither the Mona team or the Monero team is going to cover their losses. It is high time that they explore the other option that they outline in their terms of service. Yes, making their clients take a haircut will piss some clients off; however, I am sure many will understand since in both cases, it does not appear to be an inside job. They can do what bitfinex did when they got hacked. They offered their customers a token, and devoted a small portion of their profits to distribute compensation to their clients who held or bought the token.

[Hhampuz]

Nice try! Let's proceed as follows, I'll request a purchase history. But if there is a purchase of 750 MONA for 0.30 BTC, you will give each participant supporting this flag an amount equal to the purchase price / number of participants. And if this is not the case, I will transfer the same amount to you. OK?

I'm not trying to attack you, I'm trying to understand.

Are you claiming that LiveCoin owes you 0.3BTC because that is what you paid for a coin that later dropped significantly in value? I understand if the wallet got locked and you could not withdraw/deposit MONA but you could have sold it to BTC at that point, no?

I have no idea what MONA is or what it's value has been, but help me  understand please

[izooomrud]

One moment: to sell big amount of shitcoins you need at first increase trading volume and adjacent things. That means that some "clean" coins still stored on exchange (they were used for such things) and maybe scammer want them back too. In that case he will use earlier prepared accounts with claims to open withdrawal.

Not excluded that we are witnesses of such scenario.

Nice try! Then why I did not sell clean coins with fakes? Why should I wait a year ?!

[bones261]

I'm not trying to attack you, I'm trying to understand.

Are you claiming that LiveCoin owes you 0.3BTC because that is what you paid for a coin that later dropped significantly in value? I understand if the wallet got locked and you could not withdraw/deposit MONA but you could have sold it to BTC at that point, no?

I have no idea what MONA is or what it's value has been, but help me  understand please

The OP is claiming to have bought Mona coins for about 40K sats each. If he was allowed to withdraw his Mona coins, he could sell his Mona coins for 20K sats for a 50% loss.(BTC wise) His only option now, if Livecoin reactivates his account, is to sell them for about 4300 sats each on Livecoin. That is almost a 90% loss.(BTC wise) If Livecoin invoked the option to make all current Mona asset holders take a haircut, the OP will probably still be better off, since withdrawals will be re-enabled, which is likely to have a positive effect on the market price at Livecoin, and if not, he can dump elsewhere.

[izooomrud]

Nice try! Let's proceed as follows, I'll request a purchase history. But if there is a purchase of 750 MONA for 0.30 BTC, you will give each participant supporting this flag an amount equal to the purchase price / number of participants. And if this is not the case, I will transfer the same amount to you. OK?

I'm not trying to attack you, I'm trying to understand.

Are you claiming that LiveCoin owes you 0.3BTC because that is what you paid for a coin that later dropped significantly in value? I understand if the wallet got locked and you could not withdraw/deposit MONA but you could have sold it to BTC at that point, no?

I have no idea what MONA is or what it's value has been, but help me  understand please

because the livecoin price does not match the market

[Hhampuz]

Nice try! Let's proceed as follows, I'll request a purchase history. But if there is a purchase of 750 MONA for 0.30 BTC, you will give each participant supporting this flag an amount equal to the purchase price / number of participants. And if this is not the case, I will transfer the same amount to you. OK?

I'm not trying to attack you, I'm trying to understand.

Are you claiming that LiveCoin owes you 0.3BTC because that is what you paid for a coin that later dropped significantly in value? I understand if the wallet got locked and you could not withdraw/deposit MONA but you could have sold it to BTC at that point, no?

I have no idea what MONA is or what it's value has been, but help me  understand please

because the livecoin price does not match the market

I see, so according to what bones261 said above the price on Livecoin is significantly lower due to wallets being locked, yes?

So the best solution in this case would be something like, disable the MONA trading pair and allow users to withdraw the MONA that they own, yes? If they were to do that, would you consider yourself being made whole or would there be further issues due to the time it has taken?

Edit: to add I've never worked at an exchange and have no idea how anything works when these things happen.

[suchmoon]

I see, so according to what bones261 said above the price on Livecoin is significantly lower due to wallets being locked, yes?

So the best solution in this case would be something like, disable the MONA trading pair and allow users to withdraw the MONA that they own, yes? If they were to do that, would you consider yourself being made whole or would there be further issues due to the time it has taken?

Edit: to add I've never worked at an exchange and have no idea how anything works when these things happen.

I don't think Livecoin can simply enable withdrawals because they have a shitload of fake coins / are on the wrong fork, i.e. they don't have enough coins for everyone to withdraw. They need to do something along the lines of what other exchanges have done in similar scenarios, e.g. offer a compensation plan. They can still pursue their claims against developers if they want to but they shouldn't be holding their customers hostage.

And they need to unlock OP's account if it's still locked due to their ridiculous TOS "no complaint" clause.

[johhnyUA]

~Snip~

Let's try again: OP bought MONA tokens ONE YEAR AGO. Not one week, not one month. Where he was all this time? For example, i lost 800 dollars in Wagger due to MY FAULT.  I'm not crying about "scammers which stole 800 dollars from me".
Everything is very shady in this story.
OP doesn't show proofs of his Livecoin balance (Does he has something except MONA coins on exchanger?)
OP doesn't answer about e-mail (Did he receive e-mail notifications about deposit/withdraw closing)
OP (and Livecoin too) doesn't answer about correspondence BEFORE his negative reviews (claims) on bestchange.ru and bitcointalk. Livecoin tells us that they offered to him some ways and he rejected all of them.  

But Livecoin of course looks very strange too. Keep trading on dumped and hacked coins it's beyond my understanding.

They can do what bitfinex did when they got hacked. They offered their customers a token, and devoted a small portion of their profits to distribute compensation to their clients who held or bought the token.

It could be hard to repeat it without scammy trade as Bitfinex did. I know it situation very well, because i was bitfinex client in 2016 and lost my funds due to "hackers" (yep, you understand what i mean by "") and in result lost 15.85 % due to shit way (maybe even "scammy") which bitfinex choosed.