Donetsk, Kharkov, Lugansk - way to Russia.

[Pagan]

Terrorists fire grenade launchers from #Slovyansk school, there are victims, civilians killed

http://www.unn.com.ua/uk/news/1348324-v-seleznov-teroristi-obstrilyuyut-iz-granatometiv-shkolu-u-slovyansku-ye-postrazhdali

[Pagan]

ruSSian separatist terrorists commit savage killings of civilians in #Donetsk

http://wp.me/p4gJLv-2BG  via @wordpressdotcom

[Nemo1024]

Sadly, I agree with you in your last statement. It's a war, and it seems to become more and more polarised, less of a civil war. People living in the South-East identify themselves less and less with Ukraine, while the Western part of Ukraine, looks more toward retaining the South-Eastern territories whatever the cost - they seem to care more about the land than the people living on it. If they cared about the people, the would-be authorities, would have long ago tried to at least talk to the South-Easterners, responded to their initial demands for federalisation as a way to save Ukraine as a state.

As for help, Russia start with it now as well. Humanitarian help is offered to the Eastern Ukraine:
http://lenta.ru/news/2014/05/28/mid/

Most of you have always said thet this is russian territory , that there are lots of russians in the east , that urkaineans are mostly dominant in the west etc.I don't know this for sure and I won't be commenting this part.

But they have been living like that for 20 years. I have neighbors that came from 300 km to work in the capital. Lots of men change their homes , people at 20-30 marry and not always from the same village or city. Those people mix , it's inevitable.
How can you now draw a line over this and how can they openly say , let's cut the country in half we don't need those guys anymore , how about we shot them ? We were drinking buddies in the college but f*8 them.

Interestingly, that was not an argument, when chopping up Yugoslavia.

True, some people move and marry, many have families that are on both sides of the existing border as it is now. That was not a big deal when everyone was living in de-facto one country, USSR.
And yes, people lived ok-ish, as long as they were not poked too much. But when someone tries to tell you that you are no longer allowed to use the language that you and your ancestors used, when they try to artificially create a sense of patriotism, it shows one of the attitude changes that make people uneasy, to put it mildly.

On the other hand, the movement of people is not that great on the scale of a population - many continue to live in the same towns and villages, where they were born, where their fathers and mothers were born. In this context, one should remember, that the territories that all the fighting is about now, where given to Ukraine by Lenin in 1917 - only 2-3 generations back. There are still some grandfathers and grandmothers alive there, who were borne in Russia, in Novorossia county, before the chaos of 1917.

EDIT: Moving the by Pagan's shelling.

[Pagan]

Terrorists are using seized ambulance cars to transport weapons, insurgents to combat places. Dmitry #Tymchuk FB

A journo frm Chechnya abt Kadyrov men: they’re war wolves, grew up w AKMs. 25-35 yrs old. Motivation: money & fear 4 their families @ashevch

At night terrorists fired @ #ATO checkpoints, residential quartiers in Rubizne, #Lugansk reg. No mil/ losses, civilian tbc, Tymchuk FB

Terrorists fired @ residential buildings in #Sloviansk, Semenivka w/ seized NONA self-propelled mortar. Civilians killed, Seleznev FB

#Donetsk today: closed two hospitals and 14 schools, transport routes change http://ura.dn.ua/28.05.2014/157070.html

Battle With Russian And Chechen Terrorists For Donetsk, May 28 2014: http://youtu.be/iWDi2fTsAuM?a  нa @YouTube

[stompix]

Sadly, I agree with you in your last statement. It's a war, and it seems to become more and more polarised, less of a civil war. People living in the South-East identify themselves less and less with Ukraine, while the Western part of Ukraine, looks more toward retaining the South-Eastern territories whatever the cost - they seem to care more about the land than the people living on it. If they cared about the people, the would-be authorities, would have long ago tried to at least talk to the South-Easterners, responded to their initial demands for federalisation as a way to save Ukraine as a state.

As for help, Russia start with it now as well. Humanitarian help is offered to the Eastern Ukraine:
http://lenta.ru/news/2014/05/28/mid/

Most of you have always said thet this is russian territory , that there are lots of russians in the east , that urkaineans are mostly dominant in the west etc.I don't know this for sure and I won't be commenting this part.

But they have been living like that for 20 years. I have neighbors that came from 300 km to work in the capital. Lots of men change their homes , people at 20-30 marry and not always from the same village or city. Those people mix , it's inevitable.
How can you now draw a line over this and how can they openly say , let's cut the country in half we don't need those guys anymore , how about we shot them ? We were drinking buddies in the college but f*8 them.

Interestingly, that was not an argument, when chopping up Yugoslavia.

True, some people move and marry, many have families that are on both sides of the existing border as it is now. That was not a bit deal, when everyone was living in de-facto one country.
And yes, people lived ok-ish, as long as they were not poked too much. But when someone tries to tell you that you are no longer allowed to use the language that you and your ancestors used, it shows one of the attitude changes that make people uneasy, to put it mildly.

On the other hand, the movement of people is not that great on the scale of a population - many continue to live in the same towns and villages, where they were born, where their fathers and mothers were born. In this context, one should remember, that the territories that all the fighting is about now, where given to Ukraine by Lenin in 1917 - only 2-3 generations back. There are still some grandfathers and grandmothers alive there, who were borne in Russia, in Novorossia county, before the chaos of 1917.

PS: Can't post - trying for the third time. Pagan is spamming again.

In my case I see lots of empty villages with people forgetting about the rural way of life and migrating en mass to the cities. I don't know if that happened there but it's happening in the southern Europe at an alarming scale.
And the official numbers just don't match the reality.

Sofia it's like 2x time bigger now on surface and on traffic chaos and wiki says the population actually went down. BS.
Same happened when I traveled to Bucharest again in 10 years and the city looked huge compared to 2000.

Probably my assumptions were wrong about demographic change and migration but still , you can't really go out and start killing people for things that can be resolved otherway

[stompix]

EDIT: Moving the by Pagan's shelling.

Speaking of , I don't now if you have him on ignore or not , but this :

https://twitter.com/Stopcensorship/status/471629086499278848/photo/1

Looks like we really have to deal with some pro Russian propaganda about fake shelling of civilians..

But agian , I have no clue what those people are talking and my google translate doesn't work on that page.

[bryant.coleman]

EDIT: Moving the by Pagan's shelling.

Could you start a separate self-moderated thread? I am against media censoring and moderation, but this is the only way to prevent the uncontrolled spamming by Pagan.

BTW... news is just coming in that a school in Donetsk has been bombarded by the Ukrainian fighter jets.

[Nemo1024]

EDIT: Moving the [post] by Pagan's shelling.

Speaking of , I don't now if you have him on ignore or not , but this :

https://twitter.com/Stopcensorship/status/471629086499278848/photo/1

Looks like we really have to deal with some pro Russian propaganda about fake shelling of civilians..

But agian , I have no clue what those people are talking and my google translate doesn't work on that page.

I have him on ignore, just from the sheer frustration of BS and frequency thereof, that he posted (though some occasional interesting posts do turn up).

Regarding the one above, yes, an image from Quebec derailment was used in a post about shelling of Slavjansk by someone Stanislav Rudyka. He said that anyone who does not believe what happens in Slavjansk and Kramatorsk, should come and see for themselves. Such use of imagery undermines the message. It can actually be used to, by extension, to undermine the credibility of all other related messages. Counter-counter-propaganda, eh?

You criticised RT earlier, but I actually prefer the info reported by them as they try to check their sources, and none of their reports had been debunked so far, even though they come under a lot of scrutiny.

Could you start a separate self-moderated thread? I am against media censoring and moderation, but this is the only way to prevent the uncontrolled spamming by Pagan.

People are generally sceptical to self-mod threads. Even if I promise to only filter Pagan, will the opposition here believe that I'll not be filtering more?
Some find him entertaining, and sometimes he actually discloses some info that we should know about, so I say let him...

[247crypto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixhg5J8ThFs

[Pagan]

Ration cards are being introduced in the Crimea. Long live unification with Russia! ))

http://bessarabiainform.com/2014/03/dobro-pozhalovat-v-sssr-v-krymu-vvodyat-produktovye-kartochki-foto/#ixzz32u0A0G3q

[Nemo1024]

Ration cards are being introduced in the Crimea. Long live unification with Russia! ))

http://bessarabiainform.com/2014/03/dobro-pozhalovat-v-sssr-v-krymu-vvodyat-produktovye-kartochki-foto/#ixzz32u0A0G3q

March 2014? And it's relevant now, how?  

Dobroljot is much more fun
http://rt.com/business/161700-dobroilet-moscow-crimea-cheap/

[Balthazar]

Lol, Pagan is even smarter than usual.

ARC (i.e. autonomous republic of crimea) was disestablished since 11 march 2014. So any such paper, which refers to ARC, is a fake by definition.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=494128.msg6889408#msg6889408

[247crypto]

food in Crimea

Oни бeдняги тaк xoтят, чтoбы иx кopмили из минoмётa.

[247crypto]

Shop in Crimea

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZGGxw8qYhc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9h_Yb6SfJI

[Pagan]

A large ruSSian "Battalion Vostok" convoy moves in #Donetsk oblast. Look, what they use

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dodMqzF37ME

[Pagan]

@OSCE lost contact with another group of its SMM observers in E. #Ukraine - second group this week #Donetsk

[Pagan]

ruSSian terrorists in #Slovyansk want to blow up containers w sulfuric acid. Every terrorist got a respirator.

http://www.hromadske.tv/society/zmi-teroristi-pid-clov---yanskom-khochut-vlashtuva/

[247crypto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqpsufOVBnA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI-7KfXqQZU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSb4vYHXbzM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocYKNWrJMPE

[Nemo1024]

Shells hit school, kindergarten in Slavyansk amid Ukraine military op (VIDEO)
http://rt.com/news/162008-ukraine-shelling-slavyansk-school/

A school and a kindergarten have been shelled in Slavyansk as the city becomes increasingly unsafe in the intensified Kiev military campaign. At least 9 civilians were injured in Wednesday’s shelling incidents, including a child.

...

RT talked to a male schoolteacher from Slavyansk school number 13, who asked not to be named.

“Around midday there was a loud explosion in the school, and I fell to the floor, taking cover,” the teacher told RT over the phone.

The man said that he rushed to the corridor to assemble all the teachers and children in the school and take them to a safe place. Clouds of dust were billowing on one side of the building.

...

The Kiev forces quickly laid the blame on self-defense units, which they refer to as “terrorists.”

“Currently, we are confirming the information on the terrorists’ shelling of the residential quarters and the territory of the school in Slavyansk,” the commander of Kiev’s military operation in southeastern Ukraine, Vladislav Seleznyov, wrote on his Facebook page.

...

“We are simply horrified – you see? Horrified that our 'brave army,' which we pay taxes to maintain, is [doing] nothing else but destroying us. And our president, who must protect the civilian population – he is determined to exterminate us,” a woman working at the damaged school no. 13 told RT’s Ruptly news agency.

“For some reason, they think that we here in Slavyansk are all terrorists,” the woman said.

And this is basically the current sentiment, wrapped in one short reader comment:

theodore grapsas 28.05.2014 17:49

The simple fact is this. IF Russia and Mr Putin continues to contradict earlier promises and statements. they will lose every credibility and trust with planet earth. OK they have the Crimea rightly so but is it impossible to make absolutely clear and DEMAND or else that ALL military onslaughts in East/South UKR are ended??that talks on federalisation/auton omy take place?? HAVE THEY MADE A DEAL with US/EU?? if so what about the sacrosanct idea that Mother Russia cares for it,s own?

I start to wonder as well, where is the reaction from Russia, aside from rather hollow demands to stop the violence, voiced to the Italian (!) politician.

[bryant.coleman]

People are generally sceptical to self-mod threads. Even if I promise to only filter Pagan, will the opposition here believe that I'll not be filtering more?
Some find him entertaining, and sometimes he actually discloses some info that we should know about, so I say let him...

We don't need to filter out any one. We can just make it mandatory that no one can post consecutive posts ( I have seen pagan posting 18 to 19 posts in a single page, out of the total of 20 posts).