1GH/s, 20w, $700 (was $500) — Butterflylabs, is it for real? (Part 2)

[worldinacoin]

In one test, under these harsh conditions, our units have been running without the smallest issue for more than 72 hours without interruption. The temperature on chips barely reach 62 Degrees Celsius, and on power-mosfets they reach near 100 degrees (Max Allowable on MOSFETs is 150). The chips are not reaching this temperature by themselves, but it is the heat from the MOSFETs that are transfered to the chips through the power plane.

Would you allow Inaba to keep a unit overnight (or weekend) so he can run a 24/72 hour continual usage test.  I trust Inaba testing more than any internal testing you have done.  Your internal testing lead to a claim of 1.05GH @ 19.8W.  Inaba testing revealed the real performance specs

Even better would you consider giving Inaba a unit in compensation for all the work & time he has put into providing third party testing/assurances/validation.

Plus 1 to this.   

+ 2 to this

[fred0]

In one test, under these harsh conditions, our units have been running without the smallest issue for more than 72 hours without interruption. The temperature on chips barely reach 62 Degrees Celsius, and on power-mosfets they reach near 100 degrees (Max Allowable on MOSFETs is 150). The chips are not reaching this temperature by themselves, but it is the heat from the MOSFETs that are transfered to the chips through the power plane.

Would you allow Inaba to keep a unit overnight (or weekend) so he can run a 24/72 hour continual usage test.  I trust Inaba testing more than any internal testing you have done.  Your internal testing lead to a claim of 1.05GH @ 19.8W.  Inaba testing revealed the real performance specs

Even better would you consider giving Inaba a unit in compensation for all the work & time he has put into providing third party testing/assurances/validation.

Inaba did this at the request of the forum members.  Who should be compensating him?  Has his tip jar been filled?

Inaba's Tips gladly accepted: 168Bgg6HL6bLiUxQDBbdmHRbXtSsMixYCT

[makomk]

28nm FPGA's are already avaible. Digikey yesterday have few Kintexes XC7K325 (today they gone). Board design, assembly and synthesis of current code shouldn't take more then month. But it not be economical without new code (maybe 500MH/s).

Well, I did a synthesis run ages ago using the preliminary support for the smaller XC7K70 and ISE reckoned that could hit 250 MH/s - and this was just by throwing some Verilog I already had lying around at it and using the default options. Only took about 20 minutes or so too. (This is based on post-place-and-route timing and so should hopefully be fairly realistic.) Obviously the XC7K70 isn't actually available yet, and ISE apparently tends to have problems with multiple-miner designs so this may not scale up to larger chips, but it seems reasonably promising.

[sadpandatech]

28nm FPGA's are already avaible. Digikey yesterday have few Kintexes XC7K325 (today they gone). Board design, assembly and synthesis of current code shouldn't take more then month. But it not be economical without new code (maybe 500MH/s).

Well, I did a synthesis run ages ago using the preliminary support for the smaller XC7K70 and ISE reckoned that could hit 250 MH/s - and this was just by throwing some Verilog I already had lying around at it and using the default options. Only took about 20 minutes or so too. (This is based on post-place-and-route timing and so should hopefully be fairly realistic.) Obviously the XC7K70 isn't actually available yet, and ISE apparently tends to have problems with multiple-miner designs so this may not scale up to larger chips, but it seems reasonably promising.

 And what is the cost of one of those chips?
Edit; I also notice you guys are not including a T when speaking about the different kintex chips. Do they make one without the gtx transceiver in it? And does anyone know of the Easy-Path offering is going to be cost effective for smaller batches? I.E., <1k chips. Or even what the costs fo Easy-Path are and if it would even be useful in our situations?

[makomk]

And what is the cost of one of those chips?

No idea, they're not actually shipping yet. Obviously XC7K325T costs about $1,500 from Digikey but it's always possible the smaller chips might offer better value for money.

Edit; I also notice you guys are not including a T when speaking about the different kintex chips. Do they make one without the gtx transceiver in it?

There should probably be a T on there actually.

[DeathAndTaxes]

And does anyone know of the Easy-Path offering is going to be cost effective for smaller batches? I.E., <1k chips. Or even what the costs fo Easy-Path are and if it would even be useful in our situations?

Easy path isn't going to be cost effective is small batches.  You are looking at a lower per unit cost but a ~$100K to $250K NRE (depends on how much they like you ).    On 1K chips that is a >$100 premium per chip (plus production cost of chip).  Easy path really only makes sense at 10K units+ where than $100K can be ammortized to a $10 per unit cost.

[DeepBit]

And does anyone know of the Easy-Path offering is going to be cost effective for smaller batches? I.E., <1k chips. Or even what the costs fo Easy-Path are and if it would even be useful in our situations?

AFAIR Easypath is a way to make cheaper chips by using less strict tests (only for two bitstreams instead of full FPGA test). You get same FPGA that needs flash to work, only 35% cheaper. No speed or power benefits.

[rph]

I highly doubt we will see any FPGA board based on 28 nm FPGA in the near and midterm.
Currently the Spartan 6 is becoming widely avaidable for low volume customers.

Spartan6 has been available in qty 100+ for over 1 year now.

28nm FPGAs are already sampling and will reach production in 1H2012.

Spartan6 today is around 2X the MH/W of BFL, and the 28nm FPGAs should be 3X+.
I know it can be argued both ways but, in the long run, MH/W determines how much
profit a large miner will make, much more so than MH/$. The only way to remain profitable is
to have a MH/W that is significantly higher than the network average, and the only way to
do that is to adopt the most power-efficient technology as early as possible
(hosted in an area with the lowest possible electricity costs).

-rph

[bulanula]

I highly doubt we will see any FPGA board based on 28 nm FPGA in the near and midterm.
Currently the Spartan 6 is becoming widely avaidable for low volume customers.

Spartan6 has been available in qty 100+ for over 1 year now.

28nm FPGAs are already sampling and will reach production in 1H2012.

Spartan6 today is around 2X the MH/W of BFL, and the 28nm FPGAs should be 3X+.
I know it can be argued both ways but, in the long run, MH/W determines how much
profit a large miner will make, much more so than MH/$. The only way to remain profitable is
to have a MH/W that is significantly higher than the network average, and the only way to
do that is to adopt the most power-efficient technology as early as possible
(hosted in an area with the lowest possible electricity costs).

-rph

Exactly. +1

The 20W -> 80W fiasco is a big dent on BFL credibility. I can understand when you go maybe 1.5 times wrong but 4 times wrong is just laughable for respected engineers with 10 years of industry experience like BFL claim to have. Maybe they simulated that power draw too and that 19.8W is what the simulator showed ?

[Gabi]

-maybe these were sourced from Libya / Egypt and there may be some ethical issues there

Facepalm

Yeah sure, i bet that is the problem that generated 22 pages of troll...erh... critics

Meanwhile you all buy almost everything from china and related places where people are exploited for real but there ethical issues seems to not exists, maybe chinese ppl are robots 

[Raoul Duke]

-maybe these were sourced from Libya / Egypt and there may be some ethical issues there

Facepalm

Yeah sure, i bet that is the problem that generated 22 pages of troll...erh... critics

Meanwhile you all buy almost everything from china and related places where people are exploited for real but there ethical issues seems to not exists, maybe chinese ppl are robots 

Odds are they are not from Libya but there may be some ethical issues... We don't know. We also do not understand why its such a big hush hush. No other makers of bitcoin mining equipment keeps everything in the dark. Some of the other FPGA makers have been shockingly open about what they are selling.

So, does that mean that BFL needs to do the exact same thing as others? If they jump off a cliff should BFL follow them also?

[Gabi]

-maybe these were sourced from Libya / Egypt and there may be some ethical issues there

Facepalm

Yeah sure, i bet that is the problem that generated 22 pages of troll...erh... critics

Meanwhile you all buy almost everything from china and related places where people are exploited for real but there ethical issues seems to not exists, maybe chinese ppl are robots 

Odds are they are not from Libya but there may be some ethical issues... We don't know. We also do not understand why its such a big hush hush. No other makers of bitcoin mining equipment keeps everything in the dark. Some of the other FPGA makers have been shockingly open about what they are selling.

I think the important things are price, how much it consume, mhash/s and reliability.

I facepalm about the libya/egypt thing because it's ridicolous to troll about ETHICAL ISSUES when ALL electronic is made in china or nearby places where we KNOW laborers are exploited all the way.
Also if it's from libya, it's a + for me, helping their economy now that they are free

[Gabi]

I suppose north korea in your opinion has a majority, since everyone says they are fine with the government 

[Epoch]

I suppose north korea in your opinion has a majority, since everyone says they are fine with the government 

ba tum ching!
Libya was run by a clan that has more than 60% of the population. Free education, free first home free whatever. That oil money was being spent on the people of that clan. Some outside the clan thought they could get more by joining the west and it looks as if they have. But to say the Libyan people are now free? "Who ever told you that is your enemy... when they say jump up you say how high"

Come on, guys, let's keep this thread under control and on topic.

[SlaveInDebt]

Are these shipping now with an updated power brick?

[rjk]

Are these shipping now with an updated power brick?

Our production system that is currently in manufacture for delivery, has two regulators on board, supporting max 120A of current implemented as a safety margin. The PSU shipped with the units will be equally supporting up to 135 Watts.

Not shipping yet, but will have updated brick.

[SlaveInDebt]

Thx rjk it's a lot of thread.

[RandyFolds]

Are these shipping now with an updated power brick?

Our production system that is currently in manufacture for delivery, has two regulators on board, supporting max 120A of current implemented as a safety margin. The PSU shipped with the units will be equally supporting up to 135 Watts.

Not shipping yet, but will have updated brick.

Yes, it's projected shipping date is 4-6 weeks. Just like three months ago...

[bulanula]

Let us pray they don't literally ship a brick ... or at least something that will turn into a brick in 4 months etc.

Some scammers get away with shipping a brick and claiming to have proof of delivery too and the buyer loses out.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Let us pray they don't literally ship a brick ... or at least something that will turn into a brick in 4 months etc.

Some scammers get away with shipping a brick and claiming to have proof of delivery too and the buyer loses out.

Well the earliest pre-orders are now almost 10 weeks old so BFL could ship nothing just send a "you got fucked" email and the buyer would have no recourse.  Paypal chargeback window is long since expired.