1GH/s, 20w, $700 (was $500) — Butterflylabs, is it for real? (Part 2)

[Inaba]

Yeah, I don't see 75% of the forum disagreeing, I see handful of individuals being rabidly angry for no logical or reasonable reason. 

It's also nothing like claiming a car gets 1000 MPG and it only gets 50.  It's like claiming a car gets 100 mpg (just like some claimed the leaf and in the beginning the Prius), when it only gets 25 (which is what the Prius gets on the highway under poor conditions).  On top of that, my "regular car" gets 50 MPG on the highway and 42 in the city.  It blows the Prius out of the water for city driving and I have 200 HP and 300 ft/lb torque... so taking the tired and trusty car analogy to it's logical conclusion, the Toyota and Nissan are a bunch of liars, thieves and dishonest fuckwits for claiming 100 MPG estimates when the reality is far, far removed from the actual execution.  On top of that, they are doubly offensive for trying to claim their craptacular hybrids are superior to modern diesel engines, which routinely get the same or better MPG under many circumstances, have a longer useful life, cost less and have more power than the hybrids they are lying to the public about.

But lets be real... we are talking about bitcoin mining devices that use 80w (probably less in the shipping version), which, as I said, is STILL ahead of EVERY OTHER DEVICE available right now... so whether or not it's 20w or 80w, it's still superior to everything else and thus it's more profitable in the end, which is what matters.

And Goat, you are deluding yourself if you think most people are not in it for the profit.  Yes, there are definitely some in it for the political / societal ramifications, but the majority of miners are there for profit, not ideology.

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[btc_artist]

Yes, my conclusions are based on the only factor that matters in bitcoin for 99.9% of the people: profitability.

I am sorry but this quote is going to hurt you in the long run. Merry Christmas

You can make one of the following widgets per day, A or B, which would you choose?

A.  Total cost of production: $10. Selling price: $20. Profit: $10
B.  Total cost of production: $2. Selling price: $4. Profit: $2

[nmat]

I agree with Inaba. And, like Inaba said, I am not speaking because I never made one of those.

I don't see anyone taking other people's money under false pretenses (what your commonly refer as scam). I also don't see anyone forcing people to buy FPGAs. I do see a price label and a performance measure which was verified by Inaba under the described conditions. With that I being said, I don't really understand the point of this discussion.

[Syke]

so taking the tired and trusty car analogy to it's logical conclusion, the Toyota and Nissan are a bunch of liars, thieves and dishonest fuckwits for claiming 100 MPG estimates when the reality is far, far removed from the actual execution.

And so since car manufacurers lie about their stats, it's perfectly honest for BFL to do the same. Great logic you have there.

[rjk]

so taking the tired and trusty car analogy to it's logical conclusion, the Toyota and Nissan are a bunch of liars, thieves and dishonest fuckwits for claiming 100 MPG estimates when the reality is far, far removed from the actual execution.

And so since car manufacurers lie about their stats, it's perfectly honest for BFL to do the same. Great logic you have there.

They don't lie, they just test under extremely optimized conditions that are unrealistic in the the everyday world.

[grue]

BFL: you have still not replied about the authenticity of your business registration[/b. This was brought up over a month ago, and a member even claims that registration is not really yours.

It's also nothing like claiming a car gets 1000 MPG and it only gets 50.  It's like claiming a car gets 100 mpg (just like some claimed the leaf and in the beginning the Prius), when it only gets 25 (which is what the Prius gets on the highway under poor conditions).  On top of that, my "regular car" gets 50 MPG on the highway and 42 in the city.  It blows the Prius out of the water for city driving and I have 200 HP and 300 ft/lb torque... so taking the tired and trusty car analogy to it's logical conclusion, the Toyota and Nissan are a bunch of liars, thieves and dishonest fuckwits for claiming 100 MPG estimates when the reality is far, far removed from the actual execution.  On top of that, they are doubly offensive for trying to claim their craptacular hybrids are superior to modern diesel engines, which routinely get the same or better MPG under many circumstances, have a longer useful life, cost less and have more power than the hybrids they are lying to the public about.

source? and who do you mean by "some"?

[BFL]

BFL: you have still not replied about the authenticity of your business registration[/b. This was brought up over a month ago, and a member even claims that registration is not really yours.

Grue, click on my previous posts and you'll find several full and detailed clarifications to this with state registration links etc etc etc.  I won't bother to review them all here because there's no way you could have possibly missed them if you have read these threads.  You're just a troll. 

This is my last post to you, Grue.  If our product affects your view of the world in some painful way, you're just going to have to deal with it. 

Good luck.

BFL

[CA Coins]

Has anybody actually received a shipping product?

[DiabloD3]

Mod here, lets keep it civil.

[Raoul Duke]

Has anybody actually received a shipping product?

Has anybody actually read the MF thread?

[Epoch]

Has anybody actually received a shipping product?

Shipments with the upgraded power subsystem are slated to start in January. As far as I know, no units have been shipped yet.

@BFL: can you provide more detail? For those who already have orders, when do you expect to ship their units (approximately; I realize unforeseen circumstances between now and then can alter that estimate)?

[CA Coins]

Thanks, that's what I thought. It seems like someone has seen 2 test units but nothing has actually been shipped. Would be interested as well to know when the planned shipping date would be and how it performs when it ships.

[RandyFolds]

Has anybody actually received a shipping product?

Shipments with the upgraded power subsystem are slated to start in January. As far as I know, no units have been shipped yet.

@BFL: can you provide more detail? For those who already have orders, when do you expect to ship their units (approximately; I realize unforeseen circumstances between now and then can alter that estimate)?

4-6 weeks, man. Just like it was in October.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Thanks, that's what I thought. It seems like someone has seen 2 test units but nothing has actually been shipped. Would be interested as well to know when the planned shipping date would be and how it performs when it ships.

Shipping date today is 4-6 weeks.  Of course shipping date was 4-6 weeks 10 weeks ago too.

[BFL]

Has anybody actually received a shipping product?

Shipments with the upgraded power subsystem are slated to start in January. As far as I know, no units have been shipped yet.

@BFL: can you provide more detail? For those who already have orders, when do you expect to ship their units (approximately; I realize unforeseen circumstances between now and then can alter that estimate)?

Hi Epoch, please email me directly for updated delivery details.  office @ butterflylabs . com   

Regards,
BFL

[RandyFolds]

Has anybody actually received a shipping product?

Shipments with the upgraded power subsystem are slated to start in January. As far as I know, no units have been shipped yet.

@BFL: can you provide more detail? For those who already have orders, when do you expect to ship their units (approximately; I realize unforeseen circumstances between now and then can alter that estimate)?

Hi Epoch, please email me directly for updated delivery details.  office @ butterflylabs . com   

Regards,
BFL

Why not put it on your website? It's a pretty important piece of information for both current and potential customers.

[BFL]

Why not put it on your website? It's a pretty important piece of information for both current and potential customers.

Well Randy, because it looks like he might be a customer asking about specific delivery position timing and that's not a good topic for the public forum.  Furthermore, delivery times are on the website for new customers and existing customers have been kept fully informed with an open line of communication.

Also, you're on repeat with your 4-6 week comment.   If you're going to be trolling, then at least tell it like it is.  Our posted delivery in October was 4-8 weeks from the date of purchase (which is not to far from now).  Since our public demo it's been reduced to 4-6 weeks.  We're currently scheduled for initial pre-order purchases to be delivered in January.

Regards,
BFL

[grue]

Grue, click on my previous posts and you'll find several full and detailed clarifications to this with state registration links etc etc etc.  I won't bother to review them all here because there's no way you could have possibly missed them if you have read these threads.  You're just a troll. 

oh really? let's analyze your previous posts.

Note, I'm not a lawyer and this should not be taken as legal advice, but here's the answer to your question...

Corporate registry in any state requires a local address of record.  Certain states (Delaware and Wyoming are good examples) have worked hard to create attractive corporate taxation policy.  They do this mostly by not taxing assets or profit as long as they're out of state.  However, since an in state address must be provided for yearly filings and correspondence (minutes of record, board meetings, charter renewal etc) to maintain the legal body active and healthy from year to year, a registered agent specializing in these interactions is commonly retained.  This keeps the corporate assets and profits, which are out of state, free from in state taxation.  I think a casual review of business norms would reverse any thoughts about this being a murky practice.  It's simply how business is done and also why the vast majority of the US fortune 500 are registered in either Wyoming or Delaware.

Regards,
BFL

ok, you state why you have a whyoming[sic] state registration.

Actually I think this is the very first post where you indicated you have a dba filing as Butterfly Labs. 
There is no dba filing in the state of Missouri for "Butterfly Labs Inc."

D&T, "related dba filings underway" implies they're not through the process yet.  However, it's a valid question that you had asked before and didn't get an answer.  Mostly because the discussion hadn't been reasonable enough to warrant comment at the time in the other wild thread.

Having a DBA is legally relevant only when you're writing a check or entering into a legal relationship with a name that's not backed by a legal structure.  All our communication, merchant accounts & contracts are marked with BF Labs Inc.  So making a point of this is splitting hairs.  If you need to be right..  well, you are.  Is it relevant...  no...  not really.  In anycase, DBA's have been underway for quite some time and with a little patience, you'll be comforted to see them when you refresh your registry page.

D&T, in general you seem to have been at us with a fire poker.  I can understand why.  You were making a technical assessment that you believed in and mostly turned out to be right (regarding power draw).  However, I don't believe you've been particularly unfair along the way when you've had the facts...  and I appreciate that.

Regards,
BFL

you're saying that you're making a dba filing, but nothing to backup your ownership of the said registration.

The legal entity is BF Labs Inc. which is a Wyoming corporation.  We operate under the brand entity Butterfly Labs with related dba filings underway for the various permutations of that name.  Any formal interaction with the company such as purchases and communication clearly states BF Labs Inc.

Here is the official entry in the Wyoming state corporate registry :
https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?FilingNum=2011-000606261

I should point out that Goat knows all this already as it's been covered several times in the previous thread.  I guess my job as forum rep is like following a toddler around with a wash cloth.  Ah..  I should stop complaining.  It's not so bad.

Regards,
BFL

PS.  Here's a previous post answering this same question:

1.  Corporate registry - The company is a 'C' corp registered in the state of Wyoming as BF Labs Inc.  Why Wyoming when you're not based there?  Mostly due to it's favorable tax and legal climate.  Operating in the same state of incorporation exposes the company to additional tax liabilities.  You might also find it interesting to know that the majority of US domiciled fortune 500 companies are either Delaware or Wyoming corporations for these same reasons.  Intel is a good example. 

You post a link to the registration, which also happens to be the same link that a member posted on November the 6th. Which, correct me if i'm wrong, you have not commented on until mid December. In addition, there is also a post claiming that the registration does not belong to you.

Perhaps my point wasn't stated clearly. Here is it again: what's preventing me from creating a company called "Butter Fried Labs", and claiming to use the same registration? You see the problem there? ANY company (with a similar name) could claim that registration belongs to them; simply saying "oh, we're registered as BFL in Wyoming" isn't enough. You need to provide definitive proof that proves the registration is yours, and you're not merely using another company's registration.

Oh, what about your dba filings? are they still not complete yet?

Your strange activities regarding the registration of your business makes me believe that a) you are not registered as a company, at all. b) you're using another company's registration to cover your behind (why else would you take one and a half months to reply to a registration issue?)

This is my last post to you, Grue.  If our product affects your view of the world in some painful way, you're just going to have to deal with it. 

that's a nice cop out to some legitimate questions about your business. 

[BFL]

To BFL,

October was 4 to 8 weeks.
December is 4 to 6 weeks.
So at this rate February should be in 4 weeks?

Yes, it's our goal to reduce lead time as volume increases.

Regards,
BFL

[legolouman]

To BFL,

October was 4 to 8 weeks.
December is 4 to 6 weeks.
So at this rate February should be in 4 weeks?

Yes, it's our goal to reduce lead time from the date of order as volume increases.

Regards,
BFL

The way I read that, you won't have any product made (to be shipped) until you have enough order volume? In other words, the early adopters are being screwed? With that logic, you could push ship date indefinitely, and never reach the volume as faith will be lost.

I also interpreted that as, "We won't work any of these bugs out until after we have made enough money to be able to disappear."


1000 orders later and 3 months later (figuratively speaking), ship date could be in 2-3 weeks from what you just said. Great way to screw anyone willing to put faith in your business.