1GH/s, 20w, $700 (was $500) — Butterflylabs, is it for real? (Part 2)

[RandyFolds]

Maybe not 1000, but how about fifty...or even one for that matter... You completely missed the point. Why aren't they reinvesting their profit in the business in order to deliver for their customers?

I don't know what they are doing as far as that goes, but I do not see any evidence that is not happening. How fast, exactly, can you design an FPGA solution to the specific problem of Bitcoin and deliver it in a nice form factor, from scratch?

I stated several months ago that I could (with no working knowledge of FPGAs) probably get a couple demos thrown together for $10k. I stand by that.

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[c_k]

If they use a single FPGA, has anyone looked at the FPGA chips on the market that could perform so high?

[Epoch]

If they use a single FPGA, has anyone looked at the FPGA chips on the market that could perform so high?

From the images on BFL's website, and the Rev 1 PCB layout we've seen, it appears they are using 2 (identical?) FPGAs. I don't believe anyone here has put forth a guess on what they can be.

[plastic.elastic]

Yes. I think it is unreasonable. It is the way they got into this predicament where they cannot deliver on-spec or on-time.

They took people's money -based upon lies- as capital to build a product (that doesn't exist as of yet) and even with their irresponsible preorders, couldn't finance their endeavor? They are still accepting pre-orders, now for a $25k vapor-box as well. You're telling me they can't find a venture capitalist to kick them a few hundred grand to deliver their products on time? They don't have enough collateral to secure a bank loan?

How can the lead time be the same for a completely undesigned and untested device be the same as one that is already on the production line and due to hit the shelves in a week?

Thanks for answering.  So, in a nutshell, your chain of logic is completely non-existent and meanders all over the place, breaking down like a Ford fresh off the showroom floor.  That's kind of what I thought, but I had hoped that maybe you had some sort of logical consistence to your constant haranguing, but my hopes have been dashed, sadly.

Sorry if your opinion isnt fact. Just because you think its not logical , doesnt make it so. Who gives a shiet what you "hoped". Do you care if i "hoped" you're retard?

I troll this thread because of pos like you who thinks their opinion is end of all. I dont support such business tactics of BFL's. You can go fuck yourself.

What's the matter, stud?  Did I piss you off?  Did your little brain overload?  Glad you like my avatar, it looks good on you.  At least you know what it feels like to not look like a douche.  Enjoy it!  Sorry about letting your secrets out, but it happens and I am really sorry if I hurt your feelings, little man.  Your fragile ego is hard to dance around.

lol i did get under your skin didnt i?

Little man? Judging by your pic, i would never be considered little. But i guess behind a screen, you can run that big mouth of yours.

Btw, is the jokes store sold out? you used the same worlds over and over. If you want my "come" back, scrap your mom's teeth.

[plastic.elastic]

To put things in perspective,

Look at the Raspberry Pi project, its supposed to be shipping in Nov 2011. However, after few delays, they're still not able to ship the products. They just got a contract with a manufacture oversea and will ship the product in Feb. Yet, they dont receive a single negative comment or feedback. Why? simple.... no BS claim, no preorder crap and certainly open to anyone (you can see every single components being used, not some secret BS)

However, ppl in Bitcoin community can be fooled and blind to give BLF some free interest loan. Another fool is willing to do their PR work.

[sadpandatech]

If they use a single FPGA, has anyone looked at the FPGA chips on the market that could perform so high?

It is apparently 2 chips on this board. We have had some light discussions, I think more so in the older thread about what current fpga chips are capable. The few in the 45nm series that can manage 400MHs+ run anywhere from $750 to $1250 per chip.

I made some fail effort to identify the chips from the pics available. Closest thing I could find in size and materials was I believe the Altera FPGAs. But the picks I found had what appear to be rounder corners than the BFL ones. I would think some of the other guys around here have seen enough of these they could indent it from just this pick. We know roughly the chip size, which I can't recall off hand. I deleted my 'research' folder on all of it when I caught myself wasting too much time on something that really did not matter. It may have been 25mmx25mm though?

hmm, looking again since you asked.  it's 780pin. the pcb suggest it is 1.1v. size suggest 65nm. which would be 29x29mm.
http://components.arrow.com/part/search/1.1v+fpga+stratix+iii
My best, uneducated guess is; http://components.arrow.com/part/detail/46649448S9901954N7401



will update if I can narrow it down further.

[bulanula]

To put things in perspective,

Look at the Raspberry Pi project, its supposed to be shipping in Nov 2011. However, after few delays, they're still not able to ship the products. They just got a contract with a manufacture oversea and will ship the product in Feb. Yet, they dont receive a single negative comment or feedback. Why? simple.... no BS claim, no preorder crap and certainly open to anyone (you can see every single components being used, not some secret BS)

However, ppl in Bitcoin community can be fooled and blind to give BLF some free interest loan. Another fool is willing to do their PR work.

Exactly. Until we actually see a forum review all this ( even the singles ) is total speculation to me.

LOL I actually thought plastic.elastic was Inaba back there

Inaba, how did you get hired as BFL's PR guy ? Can I also apply as I need some cash too ?

[n0ne]

If they use a single FPGA, has anyone looked at the FPGA chips on the market that could perform so high?

It is apparently 2 chips on this board. We have had some light discussions, I think more so in the older thread about what current fpga chips are capable. The few in the 45nm series that can manage 400MHs+ run anywhere from $750 to $1250 per chip.

I made some fail effort to identify the chips from the pics available. Closest thing I could find in size and materials was I believe the Altera FPGAs. But the picks I found had what appear to be rounder corners than the BFL ones. I would think some of the other guys around here have seen enough of these they could indent it from just this pick. We know roughly the chip size, which I can't recall off hand. I deleted my 'research' folder on all of it when I caught myself wasting too much time on something that really did not matter. It may have been 25mmx25mm though?

hmm, looking again since you asked.  it's 780pin. the pcb suggest it is 1.1v. size suggest 65nm. which would be 29x29mm.
http://components.arrow.com/part/search/1.1v+fpga+stratix+iii
My best, uneducated guess is; http://components.arrow.com/part/detail/46649448S9901954N7401



will update if I can narrow it down further.

Nice research. The release of this little baby should be interesting. I understand people being sceptical but hey, welcome to the free market. If they are trying to make a business out of this, why do people expect them to release all the info on everything? No one seems to understand R&D when it comes to business.

Come on trolls, If you don't believe him, or your jealous(whatever the reason) can we just wait till beginning of Fed, they should be released by then. If they don't, we can all flip our tables.

How about we try to be civil, Yes?

[kano]

Nice research. The release of this little baby should be interesting. I understand people being sceptical but hey, welcome to the free market. If they are trying to make a business out of this, why do people expect them to release all the info on everything? No one seems to understand R&D when it comes to business.

Come on trolls, If you don't believe him, or your jealous(whatever the reason) can we just wait till beginning of Fed, they should be released by then. If they don't, we can all flip our tables.

How about we try to be civil, Yes?

Heh I see you didn't read the whole thread.
Ignoring all the unreasonable stuff, the reasonable complaints are:
The original product description and web order page was based on a simulation - no actual hardware.
Some guy from BFL actually made comments about how they have 10 years of experience in this.
When the first prototype finally arrived, it was well under spec in ALL aspects and had to be redesigned due to a complete failure in power design (coz it was based on a simulation)
Approx 80% hash rate, 400% power usage, different sell price and has pushed back every deadline they have quoted, over and over again.
Basically BFL have implied and said a lot of things, and none, but certain statements after the fact (and their money back statement), so far have been true.
So yeah it's not hard to understand where the trolling came from.

[DeathAndTaxes]

hmm, looking again since you asked.  it's 780pin. the pcb suggest it is 1.1v. size suggest 65nm. which would be 29x29mm.
http://components.arrow.com/part/search/1.1v+fpga+stratix+iii
My best, uneducated guess is; http://components.arrow.com/part/detail/46649448S9901954N7401

will update if I can narrow it down further.

I think that is a good guess.  The voltage and power consumption almost guarantee it is a last gen 65nm product.   45nm chips simply don't consume that much wattage (bad board design or not) no matter how hard you push them.  All other 45nm miner designs are getting 20MH/S +/- 10%.   BFL is getting 10MH/W.  My guess is they (maybe using prior industry contract) they made a bulk purchase of some out the end of life 65nm chips at a significant discount to retail. 

So I doubt BFL will ever confirm it but what do they do after their stock runs out?  Neither company is making any more 65nm chips.  Then again maybe it is a good plan.  Buy 65nm chips at discount to undercut all other competitors, build boards until you run out.  Use that capital to start designing 28nm products and skip 45nm generation completely.  If they have enough stock to last in Q3-2012 it could work.

Too bad they had to come off completely scammy by offering specs based on simulations, taking pre-orders, using loose delivery "dates", poor contact with community, etc. 

In the long run it doesn't matter.  For most of us this is a business.  If they have the best product (confirmed by end users) hell even I might buy one someday.

[Inaba]

Yes. I think it is unreasonable. It is the way they got into this predicament where they cannot deliver on-spec or on-time.

They took people's money -based upon lies- as capital to build a product (that doesn't exist as of yet) and even with their irresponsible preorders, couldn't finance their endeavor? They are still accepting pre-orders, now for a $25k vapor-box as well. You're telling me they can't find a venture capitalist to kick them a few hundred grand to deliver their products on time? They don't have enough collateral to secure a bank loan?

How can the lead time be the same for a completely undesigned and untested device be the same as one that is already on the production line and due to hit the shelves in a week?

Thanks for answering.  So, in a nutshell, your chain of logic is completely non-existent and meanders all over the place, breaking down like a Ford fresh off the showroom floor.  That's kind of what I thought, but I had hoped that maybe you had some sort of logical consistence to your constant haranguing, but my hopes have been dashed, sadly.

Sorry if your opinion isnt fact. Just because you think its not logical , doesnt make it so. Who gives a shiet what you "hoped". Do you care if i "hoped" you're retard?

I troll this thread because of pos like you who thinks their opinion is end of all. I dont support such business tactics of BFL's. You can go fuck yourself.

What's the matter, stud?  Did I piss you off?  Did your little brain overload?  Glad you like my avatar, it looks good on you.  At least you know what it feels like to not look like a douche.  Enjoy it!  Sorry about letting your secrets out, but it happens and I am really sorry if I hurt your feelings, little man.  Your fragile ego is hard to dance around.

lol i did get under your skin didnt i?

Little man? Judging by your pic, i would never be considered little. But i guess behind a screen, you can run that big mouth of yours.

Btw, is the jokes store sold out? you used the same worlds over and over. If you want my "come" back, scrap your mom's teeth.

Awww poor little guy.  You are apparently so butt hurt that you need to make a 'mom' joke.  Wow... didn't think I cut you that bad.  The day someone like you can get under my skin is the day I eschew the internet entirely.  I'm fairly entertained by how hard you're trying (and how hard you end up failing)... by all means, keep it up.  The only one "running their big mouth behind a screen" is you.  My picture is out there, my info is out there. I'm available for real life meetings any time.  How about you, sparky?

[DeathAndTaxes]

Come on trolls, If you don't believe him, or your jealous(whatever the reason) can we just wait till beginning of Fed, they should be released by then. If they don't, we can all flip our tables.

Good thing you were around in Oct.  You likely would have said:

"can we just wait till beginning of Nov, they should be released by then. If they don't, we can all flip our tables"

[n0ne]

I can't believe you guys are crying because someone might of made some mistakes. Clearly you guys are all perfect and when you build a product, your R&D is perfect and never a mistake is made. That's pretty amazing! I wish when I designed something I never made mistakes.

In reality people have high expectations on a product they are developing and in the hype might make mistakes in detailing some specs because they're exited. Not to mention all the stuff I have seen(yes I have been through the threads) on here and their site, if it is a scam it's a pretty damn good one. To go to the length of designing something that looks so real, and to be knowledgeable on the subject. Impressive.

Have you guys ever thought about heading over the office? Maybe they'll be courteous and give a small tour.

25E 12th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
United States of America

Go for it.

The crap on this thread reminds me when the BF3 beta(the release for the matter) came out. People fucking flipped there shit because it wasn't PERFECT. I see this crap a lot now in Beta tests of multiple games. People expect so much and never leave space for reality. Everyone is so damn spoiled, they over hype everything and it never lives up. Let's all be realistic.

[jamesg]

Please keep throwing the FUD around so I can mine with my singles at 10Mh per watt while the rest of you fight over who is more right about how BFL is a scam, they won't deliver, they fucked up, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I hope I own 200 singles and a couple rig boxes before you guys are done.

[bulanula]

Please keep throwing the FUD around so I can mine with my singles at 10Mh per watt while the rest of you fight over who is more right about how BFL is a scam, they won't deliver, they fucked up, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I hope I own 200 singles and a couple rig boxes before you guys are done.

So many people are 100% convinced that this is real while so many other people are 100% convinced it is a scam.

Hmmm, who to believe ?

[jamesg]

Please keep throwing the FUD around so I can mine with my singles at 10Mh per watt while the rest of you fight over who is more right about how BFL is a scam, they won't deliver, they fucked up, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I hope I own 200 singles and a couple rig boxes before you guys are done.

So many people are 100% convinced that this is real while so many other people are 100% convinced it is a scam.

Hmmm, who to believe ?

Anyone with any common sense knows things never go according to plan. Anyone with skin in the game would have emailed BFL to get their questions answered. You will notice that every post where 1) someone asked for a refund or 2) has actually communicated with BFL regarding their order has had no issues or complaints.

It is only the trolls with too much time on their hands and not enough money in their pockets that seems to create all of the FUD. Sad.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I hope I own 200 singles and a couple rig boxes before you guys are done.

Why would you stupidly buy 200 singles for $120,000 if both products exist?
Plus 16 KW?  Hope your got a significant cooling system and electrical mains.

[jamesg]

I hope I own 200 singles and a couple rig boxes before you guys are done.

Why would you stupidly buy 200 singles for $120,000 if both products exist?
Plus 16 KW?  Hope your got a significant cooling system and electrical mains.

I'm glad you are so worried about me. I do have plenty of cooling and electrical. Thanks for asking. 

[RandyFolds]

Have you guys ever thought about heading over the office? Maybe they'll be courteous and give a small tour.

25E 12th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
United States of America

Yeah...you didn't read this thread at all...

I hope I own 200 singles and a couple rig boxes before you guys are done.

I hope you end up owning something too, for that sizable interest free loan you handed out. All your comments lead me to believe that you don't understand the concept of a long con. Did you have a bunch of money in MyBitcoin, too?

[Syke]

It is only the trolls with too much time on their hands and not enough money in their pockets that seems to create all of the FUD. Sad.

As a potential customer, it makes sense for me to investigate their product. There's plenty of FUD going around, but that's directly caused by BFL's major problems.

We Fear the shipped product won't meet their claims because BFL keeps changing the claims.

We are Uncertain when they will ship because BFL keeps changing the ship date.

We Doubt they know what they're doing because BFL launched products solely based on a simulations.

The FUD is all BFLs fault.