1GH/s, 20w, $700 (was $500) — Butterflylabs, is it for real? (Part 2)

[kano]

Except that the issue about monitoring the device that I have mentioned has been ignored and unanswered for a few weeks now ...
(directly related to Goat's comment above also)

There is no reason why people interested in these devices (myself included) should shut up.

There is also the issue of the chip inside them.
Is it a "one off" old stock, cheap sale item that means BFL won't be able to meet any new demand at the already increased price point and also will not be able to support their warranty 5/6 months down the road?
If they get an order for 1000 of these when they do finally deliver the first one - will they actually be able to meet that demand (also for the above mentioned reasons)

We should get some of the answers within a week, but why they wont respond to at least the important questions is a worry.
The BFL account does login to bitcointalk regularly ...

Edit: There's a pull request in the bitforce code (in cgminer of course) to read the device temperature ...
So hopefully that resolves that one ...

[RandyFolds]

Five days left. These should already be in the mail. Who has their tracking info?

[antirack]

Well. I have some skin in the game. I have two BFL singles ordered.
I also got overly ambitious and put a descent deposit towards a rig; however,
after coming to my senses (that was just too much of my investment money to put in all this bitcoin fun), I had second thoughts and kindly asked Sonny for a refund.
Well, my refund arrived today.

Just wanted to let the community know.
I understand the frustration with all their PR blunders and misrepresentations, but I wish them success and hope they learn from their mistakes.


Can't wait 'till these singles get here!

Sorry for getting back on topic, I am one of the newfgs (to keep the /b/ spirit up) here at bitcointalk.

May I ask how much deposit they took on the rigs and what ETA they promised?

I'd be worried about cooling and stuff too on the Bitforce Singles, because of the enclosure and small physical size. But the promised specs do look interesting I have to admit. On the other hand, if their product turns out to be real, who is to say that they don't release something double the capacity in 6 months after you invest a half fortune with them?

And I suppose any new orders placed for singles are due to be delivered in 4-6 weeks if I place a new order with PayPal now? Wouldn't customers be protected by PayPal's policies if something goes wrong (not delivered within promised time frame)?

[simonk83]

[Epoch]

Judging by the unmarked heatspreaders, there's no point in removing the heatsinks to find out what chips these are ... there are no markings!

[fred0]

Judging by the unmarked heatspreaders, there's no point in removing the heatsinks to find out what chips these are ... there are no markings!

Hopefully, tracking numbers will be coming soon....

[dirtycat]

Judging by the unmarked heatspreaders, there's no point in removing the heatsinks to find out what chips these are ... there are no markings!

looks like they wire brushed em off

[n0ne]

Hey, where did all the da haytaz go?

Looking good! We will never find out the chips being used. lol

Someone build water blocks stat!

[ZodiacDragon84]

looking into it n0ne

[DeathAndTaxes]

Judging by the unmarked heatspreaders, there's no point in removing the heatsinks to find out what chips these are ... there are no markings!

Weirdly they wire brushed the markings off but left JTAG access to the chips.  Boundary scan and ISE software will allow you to identify the chip.  Granted it takes a little more work than visually reading the markings but still is rather trivial.  There are only so many companies which make FPGAs.

[antirack]

Judging by the unmarked heatspreaders, there's no point in removing the heatsinks to find out what chips these are ... there are no markings!

Weirdly they wire brushed the markings off but left JTAG access to the chips.  Boundary scan and ISE software will allow you to identify the chip.  Granted it takes a little more work than visually reading the markings but still is rather trivial.  There are only so many companies which make FPGAs.

They could use different JTAG pinouts though, and the reason to leave them would be to do in-house stuff like programming before shipping or upgrades/repairs etc. I am not saying that this is what they will do/have done.

Or maybe the sand off the chips just now for the first shipment or so and for the pictures to delay competition a bit. Think about it, it may actually be a few months till somebody identifies the units used (if it still takes them weeks to ship), but then it still takes a few months to develop a similar architecture, and after 6 months it's all old news anyway.

[DiabloD3]

Judging by the unmarked heatspreaders, there's no point in removing the heatsinks to find out what chips these are ... there are no markings!

Weirdly they wire brushed the markings off but left JTAG access to the chips.  Boundary scan and ISE software will allow you to identify the chip.  Granted it takes a little more work than visually reading the markings but still is rather trivial.  There are only so many companies which make FPGAs.

They could use different JTAG pinouts though, and the reason to leave them would be to do in-house stuff like programming before shipping or upgrades/repairs etc. I am not saying that this is what they will do/have done.

Or maybe the sand off the chips just now for the first shipment or so and for the pictures to delay competition a bit. Think about it, it may actually be a few months till somebody identifies the units used (if it still takes them weeks to ship), but then it still takes a few months to develop a similar architecture, and after 6 months it's all old news anyway.

It'll take artforz like 5 minutes to identify it. He already owns like one of every FPGA ever.

[antirack]

It'll take artforz like 5 minutes to identify it. He already owns like one of every FPGA ever.

Sure, but first they need to ship. I they have collected 1000 orders till the day the ship and they only released pictures with sanded off ICs they have achieved their delay. If they'd put the pictures online with everybody to see what kind of units they are using their competition could go to work right away.

What I somehow don't understand is the motivation of these guys (not only BFL) to make these units and sell them for say $100 to $200 (just a guess out of thin air) profit each. Wouldn't you start mining if you'd have access to hundreds of them? Or do they think the competition is out there so better start selling them?

[Costia]

It'll take artforz like 5 minutes to identify it. He already owns like one of every FPGA ever.

Sure, but first they need to ship. I they have collected 1000 orders till the day the ship and they only released pictures with sanded off ICs they have achieved their delay. If they'd put the pictures online with everybody to see what kind of units they are using their competition could go to work right away.

What I somehow don't understand is the motivation of these guys (not only BFL) to make these units and sell them for say $100 to $200 (just a guess out of thin air) profit each. Wouldn't you start mining if you'd have access to hundreds of them? Or do they think the competition is out there so better start selling them?

the profit from mining is speculative. prices of BTC are dropping.
100-200$ profit/unit is a sure thing

[bulanula]

LOL. So they are probably the real thing but some points still remain.

Why so shady about the chips ? ArtForz will get the chip type in 20 seconds anyway.

Why so many delays ?

What else can it do if the whole thing collapses ?

[DeathAndTaxes]

What I somehow don't understand is the motivation of these guys (not only BFL) to make these units and sell them for say $100 to $200 (just a guess out of thin air) profit each. Wouldn't you start mining if you'd have access to hundreds of them? Or do they think the competition is out there so better start selling them?

By that logic shouldn't AMD hardlock their video cards to prevent mining and then just do all the mining themselves. 

Some people are gold miners and some people sell the picks and shovels.  Historically it has been the vendors who end up profiting more.  You also have to consider the time value of money.

Say you have capital to build 100 boards (80 GH).  You could either make 10% to 20% (no idea if that is what their margin actually is) in 2 months OR make 200% profit in 4 years at much higher risk.  Taking a quick 20% and then using those profits to move forward on another project is usually the wiser choice.

My belief is these chips (based on low cost & high power consumption) are end of life 60/65nm last gen chips.  They got a huge discount because they are end of life and the manufacturer wants to clear the product line.  If they sell them all off can use the funds to look at a 28nm unit when those parts become more available in mid/late 2012.

[sadpandatech]

Judging by the unmarked heatspreaders, there's no point in removing the heatsinks to find out what chips these are ... there are no markings!

looks like they wire brushed em off

aye, it almost looks like they created the alignment notch themselves too. Maybe to make up for the small divet that is almost completely removed in the process.  It's either that or they had custom 65nm chips made some place.(not likely) The world may never know. Well, until they release the units....

[rjk]

Excellent, some REAL porn for once. Fuck boobies, I can fap to this.

[sadpandatech]

Excellent, some REAL porn for once. Fuck boobies, I can fap to this.

aye, very sexy!  Those redesigned boards are fuggin hot.  I am very anxious to see if testing will show the boards again capable to hashing closer to the projected rates with the new design. We know they should have enough juice for the chips now. If they can keep them cool enough I'd think the rated MHz should be easier to achieve.

BFL, are those 500MHz or 600Mhz chips? Will your software run them as fast as can be safely cooled?

[DeathAndTaxes]

BFL, are those 500MHz or 600Mhz chips? Will your software run them as fast as can be safely cooled?

FPGA don't have set clock speeds like GPUs.  The bitstream controls the clock speed.  The same chip with one bitstream may run at 400 Mhz and loaded with a far more intensive bitstream run at 75 Mhz.  So you can't make a FPGA run faster via outside software it would require reprogramming the chip w/ a new bitstream.

I don't think there are any FPGA that run at 600 Mhz.  More likely they are using a "larger" chip.  Spartan 6-150 is used because it takes ~150K LUT to fit a complete unrolled double bitcoin hash logic.  Thus 1 hash per clock running at 200 Mhz = 200 MH/s.

If their FPGA have enough LUT to fit 2 complete unrolled hashers then the board would do 4 hashes per clock.  800 MH/s = 200 Mhz.