Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress]

[Branko]

Why do Russians see Nazis everywhere? Before going to sleep maybe you're checking under your bed to be sure that nazi isn't hiding? Not allowing athletes to participate just because that they're Russian isn't discrimination. It's collective reposnisbility. They're not directly responsible for war in Ukraine, but Russian citizens should respond for actions of their elected president, which was elected by majority of votes.
Maybe these things in Europe can be called Russophobia, but what else do you expect? That Russians will be liked and welocomed with a joy?

They probably expect same respect as recently deceased USA politician who said that death of 500 000 Iraq children
was worth price to be sure that Saddam doesn't have WMDs.

let numbers sink to you for a while:

150 dead children in Ukraine, unprecedented sanctions
500 000 dead children in Iraq, nothing happens

Before you accuse me of Russophilia: yes, I think all wars are disaster, and I think Russia are in Ukraine
not only for geostrategic, but also economic reasons. But Ukrainian leadership played right into Putin
narrative, as if they wanted him to attack

Also, amount of American hypocrisy is staggering

[1714190401]

1714190401

[1714190401]

1714190401

[paxmao]

Why do Russians see Nazis everywhere? Before going to sleep maybe you're checking under your bed to be sure that nazi isn't hiding? Not allowing athletes to participate just because that they're Russian isn't discrimination. It's collective reposnisbility. They're not directly responsible for war in Ukraine, but Russian citizens should respond for actions of their elected president, which was elected by majority of votes.
Maybe these things in Europe can be called Russophobia, but what else do you expect? That Russians will be liked and welocomed with a joy?

They probably expect same respect as recently deceased USA politician who said that death of 500 000 Iraq children
was worth price to be sure that Saddam doesn't have WMDs.

let numbers sink to you for a while:

150 dead children in Ukraine, unprecedented sanctions
500 000 dead children in Iraq, nothing happens

Before you accuse me of Russophilia: yes, I think all wars are disaster, and I think Russia are in Ukraine
not only for geostrategic, but also economic reasons. But Ukrainian leadership played right into Putin
narrative, as if they wanted him to attack

Also, amount of American hypocrisy is staggering

Apart from trying to justify the war on the ground of "Ukraine wanted to be invaded", "the amount of children dead is not as much as in other wars" and "the US is worse, so this is OK", may I know where you get your figures, particularly the 500k children dead in Irak?

[Branko]

Apart from trying to justify the war on the ground of "Ukraine wanted to be invaded", "the amount of children dead is not as much as in other wars" and "the US is worse, so this is OK", may I know where you get your figures, particularly the 500k children dead in Irak?

Sorry, I thought its common knowledge

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8

Apart from trying to justify the war on the ground of "Ukraine wanted to be invaded", "the amount of children dead is not as much as in other wars" and "the US is worse, so this is OK", may I know where you get your figures, particularly the 500k children dead in Irak?

About your (false) "Ukraine wanted to be invaded" translation of my "Ukraine knew its actions will lead to war" words, maybe
look at this interview with Ukrainian presidential adviser:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwcwGSFPqIo

[paxmao]

Apart from trying to justify the war on the ground of "Ukraine wanted to be invaded", "the amount of children dead is not as much as in other wars" and "the US is worse, so this is OK", may I know where you get your figures, particularly the 500k children dead in Irak?

Sorry, I thought its common knowledge

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8

Sorry I do not watch youtube videos for information, I would rather not have google knowing what I am interested in nor use - in general - an algorithm that systematically promotes click-baits. Do you have a written, credible source?

Do you think that the war in Irak justifies the war in Ukraine or makes it good?

Also, I think that the questions on the IQ are biased. Most people around the world do not read about state laws in the US.

EDITED:

But Ukrainian leadership played right into Putin narrative, as if they wanted him to attack

Let's get this clear then : Do you think they wanted him to attack or do you think they didn't?

[Branko]

Apart from trying to justify the war on the ground of "Ukraine wanted to be invaded", "the amount of children dead is not as much as in other wars" and "the US is worse, so this is OK", may I know where you get your figures, particularly the 500k children dead in Irak?

Sorry, I thought its common knowledge

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8

Sorry I do not watch youtube videos for information, I would rather not have google knowing what I am interested in nor use - in general - an algorithm that systematically promotes click-baits. Do you have a written, credible source?

Do you think that the war in Irak justifies the war in Ukraine or makes it good?

Also, I think that the questions on the IQ are biased. Most people around the world do not read about state laws in the US.

EDITED:

But Ukrainian leadership played right into Putin narrative, as if they wanted him to attack

Let's get this clear then : Do you think they wanted him to attack or do you think they didn't?

Use TOR browser, so then only CIA and NSA will track you, and not Google

Its not a problem to give you text source, although its always better to actually hear it first hand,
instead reading someones opinion about what someone said, but here you go:

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/3/25/lets-remember-madeleine-albright-as-who-she-really-was

Google will track that too, mind you, but oh well.

Regarding what Zelensky wanted or did not want, I'm not mind reader, so I won't make any conspiracy theories
about that...I wish he accepted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements and gave up NATO membership, then
we would have much more clear situation, and Putin would have much harder job of convincing anyone, including
Russians, that he had to attack Ukraine

[paxmao]

Apart from trying to justify the war on the ground of "Ukraine wanted to be invaded", "the amount of children dead is not as much as in other wars" and "the US is worse, so this is OK", may I know where you get your figures, particularly the 500k children dead in Irak?

Sorry, I thought its common knowledge

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8

Sorry I do not watch youtube videos for information, I would rather not have google knowing what I am interested in nor use - in general - an algorithm that systematically promotes click-baits. Do you have a written, credible source?

Do you think that the war in Irak justifies the war in Ukraine or makes it good?

Also, I think that the questions on the IQ are biased. Most people around the world do not read about state laws in the US.

EDITED:

But Ukrainian leadership played right into Putin narrative, as if they wanted him to attack

Let's get this clear then : Do you think they wanted him to attack or do you think they didn't?

Use TOR browser, so then only CIA and NSA will track you, and not Google

Its not a problem to give you text source, although its always better to actually hear it first hand,
instead reading someones opinion about what someone said, but here you go:

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/3/25/lets-remember-madeleine-albright-as-who-she-really-was

Google will track that too, mind you, but oh well.

Regarding what Zelensky wanted or did not want, I'm not mind reader, so I won't make any conspiracy theories
about that...I wish he accepted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements and gave up NATO membership, then
we would have much more clear situation, and Putin would have much harder job of convincing anyone, including
Russians, that he had to attack Ukraine

Thanks for the track covering advice, I still rather have a reliable written source. No, Google will not track any of my activity unless I want to, thank again.

You say you do not make conspiracy theories, but you did make the statement

But Ukrainian leadership played right into Putin narrative, as if they wanted him to attack

So my question remains. Does that mean that you think he wanted Putin to attack or you think he did not want him to attack?

Also, why should Ukraine have Putin deciding what they can or cannot do? Are we in the middle ages?

[Branko]

Also, why should Ukraine have Putin deciding what they can or cannot do? Are we in the middle ages?

Same reason as why Cuba was not allowed to put nukes on its soil?
Why you call 1960's "middle ages"?

Also, you should make distinction between "because" and "as if"

[paxmao]

Also, why should Ukraine have Putin deciding what they can or cannot do? Are we in the middle ages?

Same reason as why Cuba was not allowed to put nukes on its soil?
Why you call 1960's "middle ages"?

Also, you should make distinction between "because" and "as if"

In your view, is the fact that Cuba, in the 60s, could not install nuclear missiles on its soil the true justification for this war?

Do you think Ukraine would be admitted in the OTAN and, if so, it would have nuclear missiles installed in its soil? Before you answer that question, please notice that Lithuania is a NATO member and the distance from Moscow is less than 500 miles, that there are nuclear submarines that can be positioned in the artic or any other point in the coastal areas of Russia and that there are several other options for a first strike capability.

Do you think that now that Finland is requesting to join the NATO Putin is justified to attack Finland? Should NATO position troops in Finland now?

The fact is that if you want to invade a country, you can always find a whatabbout to justify.

[suchmoon]

Regarding what Zelensky wanted or did not want, I'm not mind reader, so I won't make any conspiracy theories
about that...I wish he accepted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements and gave up NATO membership, then
we would have much more clear situation, and Putin would have much harder job of convincing anyone, including
Russians, that he had to attack Ukraine

Nothing that Ukraine did or didn't do had any effect on the situation (unless of course they simply gave up and joined Putin's empire voluntarily).

Putin lied to the Russian people and created the obviously false narrative that Ukraine ("nazis") and/or NATO were going to attack Russia so he had to strike first. NATO has been on Russia's borders for decades. The new members joined NATO to defend against this exact shit that's going on now in Ukraine and it was a damn good decision that saved Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania - surely Putin would have gone there first and not to Ukraine if he could.

[Branko]

Regarding what Zelensky wanted or did not want, I'm not mind reader, so I won't make any conspiracy theories
about that...I wish he accepted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements and gave up NATO membership, then
we would have much more clear situation, and Putin would have much harder job of convincing anyone, including
Russians, that he had to attack Ukraine

Nothing that Ukraine did or didn't do had any effect on the situation (unless of course they simply gave up and joined Putin's empire voluntarily).

Putin lied to the Russian people and created the obviously false narrative that Ukraine ("nazis") and/or NATO were going to attack Russia so he had to strike first. NATO has been on Russia's borders for decades. The new members joined NATO to defend against this exact shit that's going on now in Ukraine and it was a damn good decision that saved Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania - surely Putin would have gone there first and not to Ukraine if he could.

I compared current situation with Cuba crisis, BUT Ukraine in NATO would put Russia in jeopardy against conventional attack too.
Unlike conventional attack from Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania, conventional attack from Ukraine would put Russia in situation where only defense
would be use of nukes

In case of neutral or friendly Ukraine, for conventional war vs NATO  Russia only has to close Suwalki gap
Its 100km vs 2300km border to defend

[paxmao]

Regarding what Zelensky wanted or did not want, I'm not mind reader, so I won't make any conspiracy theories
about that...I wish he accepted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements and gave up NATO membership, then
we would have much more clear situation, and Putin would have much harder job of convincing anyone, including
Russians, that he had to attack Ukraine

Nothing that Ukraine did or didn't do had any effect on the situation (unless of course they simply gave up and joined Putin's empire voluntarily).

Putin lied to the Russian people and created the obviously false narrative that Ukraine ("nazis") and/or NATO were going to attack Russia so he had to strike first. NATO has been on Russia's borders for decades. The new members joined NATO to defend against this exact shit that's going on now in Ukraine and it was a damn good decision that saved Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania - surely Putin would have gone there first and not to Ukraine if he could.

I compared current situation with Cuba crisis, BUT Ukraine in NATO would put Russia in jeopardy against conventional attack too.
Unlike conventional attack from Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania, conventional attack from Ukraine would put Russia in situation where only defense
would be use of nukes

In case of neutral or friendly Ukraine, for conventional war vs NATO  Russia only has to close Suwalki gap
Its 100km vs 2300km border to defend

So, in your view, Ukraine cannot decide what to do because else Putin would not feel "secure" despite having a nuclear arsenal? Just think of it in in the opposite way: "Russian should demilitarise so that Ukraine feels secure". You see how absurd that is?

[Tash]

Two French Intelligence operatives died in helicopter crash
https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/american-and-uk-military-advisors-plus-france-intel-operatives-holed-up-with-azov-nazis-in-mariupol-now-trapped-by-russian-forces

[Branko]

So, in your view, Ukraine cannot decide what to do because else Putin would not feel "secure" despite having a nuclear arsenal? Just think of it in in the opposite way: "Russian should demilitarise so that Ukraine feels secure". You see how absurd that is?

I'm not saying that we're living in a perfect world...but seeing USA/NATO track record since WW2, can you blame Russians?
Looking at Napoleon, Hitler, Genghis Khan and numerous other invasions, can you blame Russians?

I suggest you look for and watch Oliver Stone (lenghty) interview with Putin on Youtube

hell, USA was afraid of small Grenada and attacked state of 100 thousands people with almost no military

[suchmoon]

I compared current situation with Cuba crisis, BUT Ukraine in NATO would put Russia in jeopardy against conventional attack too.
Unlike conventional attack from Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania, conventional attack from Ukraine would put Russia in situation where only defense
would be use of nukes

NATO nukes haven't moved closer to Russia in the last 30 years and there were no plans to do so. NATO expansion was quite clearly defensive and it would have remained so even if Ukraine joined NATO. Despite Putin's delusions, the West wants a stable prosperous Russia to trade with, not a shithole to fight with. If they wanted to attack it they'd have done it in mid-1990s.

Putin was upset about NATO missile defense systems in Poland et al - do you realize how insane that is? "Don't you dare to defend against us should we decide to liberate you at some point".

In case of neutral or friendly Ukraine, for conventional war vs NATO  Russia only has to close Suwalki gap
Its 100km vs 2300km border to defend

It doesn't look like Ukrainians want to be "friendly" (aka Belarus) with Russia so yeah let's bomb them to rubble.

[Branko]

It doesn't look like Ukrainians want to be "friendly" (aka Belarus) with Russia so yeah let's bomb them to rubble.

So once again, why USA invaded Grenada and Panama? They don't even share border, and
are pretty miniscule compared to, lets say, Ukraine

[suchmoon]

It doesn't look like Ukrainians want to be "friendly" (aka Belarus) with Russia so yeah let's bomb them to rubble.

So once again, why USA invaded Grenada and Panama? They don't even share border, and
are pretty miniscule compared to, lets say, Ukraine

Not sure why you're bringing this up. I'm not a fan of US "peace and democracy" exports if that's your angle. That doesn't mean that small or large Eastern European countries - or any countries - should be just given to Putin.

[coolcoinz]

It doesn't look like Ukrainians want to be "friendly" (aka Belarus) with Russia so yeah let's bomb them to rubble.

So once again, why USA invaded Grenada and Panama? They don't even share border, and
are pretty miniscule compared to, lets say, Ukraine

A good example of:

I am based on data from the Russian Ministry of Defense. There are a lot of fakes on the Ukrainian side (including about 100 captured tanks), Russian data looks reliable. Putin has declared the west to be the "Empire of Lies", so Russians have to tell the truth in order to look like a knight in shining armor.

Can't say if you're trolling for fun or for profit.
Russian data reliable? I haven't seen so many lies being told in 1 month ever. Even North Korea and China aren't bullshitting as much as Russia is.
Just this one event when Ukraine was posting Russian losses and Russia wasn't posting anything or claiming there are no losses should make you think. About 2 weeks ago Russian news agency gave an estimate of Russian losses and it was taken down within hours, but not before people made pictures, so it's all to be found in the Internet.

Just some of the Russian lies summed up for you. I don't expect to change your mind about "reliable Russian data" but I'll at least try to expose how wrong you are.


We are not going to attack Ukraine.
We are conducting military drills and will leave the border when they're finished.
We are not attacking Ukraine but moving in to protect our people in newly formed republics.
We are not attacking civilian targets.
We are not attacking Ukraine, only nazis.
All attacks are made by precision weapons aimed at military targets.
There are no losses on our side, all claims from the Ukrainian side are false.
There are some wounded on our side, but nothing serious and all Ukrainian claims are false. We will not give any numbers.
We were shooting at the nuclear power plant because we wanted to secure it so that Ukrainians could not do a provocation by blowing it up.
We destroyed a maternity hospital because Nazis were hiding there.
We are not using conscripts, all soldiers fighting in Ukraine are contract military.
We are not going to force people into service and will only send trained soldiers into Ukraine.


Before the war
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-17/russia-tells-u-s-no-ukraine-invasion-planned-tass-says
The Kremlin has repeatedly denied it intends to invade Ukraine, though Russian President Vladimir Putin has demanded concessions from NATO while building up forces around the country, including tanks, artillery and other equipment.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60407010
Moscow says it is moving troops away from the Ukrainian border after the completion of military exercises.

Beginning of the war
Russia’s defence ministry said on Thursday that its air attacks on Ukraine were not targeting cities and posed no threat to civilians, the RIA news agency reported.
Ukraine said earlier that at least eight people had been killed and nine were wounded by Russian shelling.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/24/russia-says-not-targeting-ukraine-cities-kyiv-claims-8-killed

MOSCOW, February 24. /TASS/. The statements by Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Valery Zaluzhny about Russia’s losses of aircraft and armored vehicles are false, the Russian Defense Ministry said on Thursday.
"The statement by the Ukrainian Army’s commander-in-chief Zaluzhny about the alleged losses of Russian aircraft and armored vehicles is an absolute lie," the statement said.
https://tass.com/politics/1409663


The Russian army on Sunday admitted that there were "killed and injured" soldiers among its troops in Ukraine on the fourth day of its invasion of the country, without specifying how many Russians had died there.
https://www.firstpost.com/world/ukraine-russia-war-news-live-updates-will-be-catastrophe-for-world-if-russia-uses-nukes-on-ukraine-says-foreign-minister-10411881.html

Enemy losses as of Feb 27 have amounted to nearly 4,300 &over 200 taken as prisoners of war; Russia denies. Ukraine had opened a hotline for relatives of Russian soldiers who can't be contacted; over 100 calls from Russian mothers were received during the 1st hr: Ukraine at UNSC
Ukrainian Ambassador to UN, Sergiy Kyslytsya, at UNSC meeting on Ukraine, says, "line & dedicated website have been shut down (by Russia).
https://mobile.twitter.com/ANI/status/1498067960296271874

The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation denied the information about the participation of conscript soldiers in a special operation on the territory of Ukraine. This was stated by the official representative of the department Igor Konashenkov
https://hindustannewshub.com/russia-ukraine-news/russian-defense-ministry-denies-participation-of-conscript-soldiers-in-special-operation-against-ukraine-the-moscow-times/


Thousands of Russians are trying to dodge conscription into their army by fleeing to the US via Mexico to claim asylum, immigration lawyers have claimed.
Many are afraid Russia's invasion of Ukraine will leave Putin wanting more people to join up to bolster his troops.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10556775/Conscription-fears-grip-Russia-thousands-try-claim-political-asylum-US.html

[Branko]

It doesn't look like Ukrainians want to be "friendly" (aka Belarus) with Russia so yeah let's bomb them to rubble.

So once again, why USA invaded Grenada and Panama? They don't even share border, and
are pretty miniscule compared to, lets say, Ukraine

Not sure why you're bringing this up. I'm not a fan of US "peace and democracy" exports if that's your angle. That doesn't mean that small or large Eastern European countries - or any countries - should be just given to Putin.

As us American use to say "Might is right"

[paxmao]

So, in your view, Ukraine cannot decide what to do because else Putin would not feel "secure" despite having a nuclear arsenal? Just think of it in in the opposite way: "Russian should demilitarise so that Ukraine feels secure". You see how absurd that is?

I'm not saying that we're living in a perfect world...but seeing USA/NATO track record since WW2, can you blame Russians?
Looking at Napoleon, Hitler, Genghis Khan and numerous other invasions, can you blame Russians?

I suggest you look for and watch Oliver Stone (lenghty) interview with Putin on Youtube

hell, USA was afraid of small Grenada and attacked state of 100 thousands people with almost no military

What you are doing is saying that Ukraine acted "as if" they wanted to be invaded, I do understand the statement and the wording, but it can be easily interpreted as a covered attempt of justification for the aggression so. My question, that you just do not answer, remains: Do you think they wanted to be invaded?

A few more questions, just so you have the chance to be clear on your points.

 Do you justify Putin on the grounds of Ukraine not accepting to do his will?
 Do you justify Putin's aggression on the grounds of "since the world is not perfect, Ukraine cannot make its own choices?" Before answering (or more likely, not answering which seems your style) consider that by using that argument nearly anything is justified (e.g. "since the world is not perfect", we can admit modern slavery in Saudi Arabia, children's prostitution in south east Asia, women's systematic assassinations and rapes in Ciudad Juarez, racial profiling,...)

[TwitchySeal]

What you are doing is

He's defending Russia and blaming Ukraine and US.