Boxing: Errol Spence vs Keith Thurman

[harizen]

It is absolutely crazy to me that half the people in this thread voted for Thurman to beat Spence.
This is going to be one of the biggest mismatches we've seen.
Thurman can't take body shots, he hates fighting at a fast pace and I don't think he can fight in the pocket particularly well.
I have researched this fight extensively and I can't see one way that Thurman beats Spence.
I think Spence stops Thurman in the 9th round.

You have to understand that some of the votes came from "personal reasons" disregarding the technical analysis.

It's not even crazy to think of since you can't blame people to ignore how strong Spence is knowing he's a big disappointment for some boxing enthusiasts for not having the courage to even push for the much-expected fight against Terence Crawford.

Moving forward though, I want to see the aftermath of this fight regardless of who will win. Lots of "what if" scenarios here that are worth to wait.

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[serjent05]

It is absolutely crazy to me that half the people in this thread voted for Thurman to beat Spence.
This is going to be one of the biggest mismatches we've seen.
Thurman can't take body shots, he hates fighting at a fast pace and I don't think he can fight in the pocket particularly well.
I have researched this fight extensively and I can't see one way that Thurman beats Spence.
I think Spence stops Thurman in the 9th round.

I have the same observation that Thurman might get KO'ed in this fight since he is weak against body punches which Spence can take advantage of.  But on the contrary, Thurman is also a knockout puncher.  There is also a possibility that Thurman might find some weaknesses in Spence and beat Spence with them.

In a fight between two knock-out punchers, anything might happen.  So even though I think Spence has a huge advantage in this fight, I never ignore the fact that Thurman is also a good boxer and has the capability to KO his opponent.

[Fredomago]

It is absolutely crazy to me that half the people in this thread voted for Thurman to beat Spence.
This is going to be one of the biggest mismatches we've seen.
Thurman can't take body shots, he hates fighting at a fast pace and I don't think he can fight in the pocket particularly well.
I have researched this fight extensively and I can't see one way that Thurman beats Spence.
I think Spence stops Thurman in the 9th round.

I have the same observation that Thurman might get KO'ed in this fight since he is weak against body punches which Spence can take advantage of.  But on the contrary, Thurman is also a knockout puncher.  There is also a possibility that Thurman might find some weaknesses in Spence and beat Spence with them.

In a fight between two knock-out punchers, anything might happen.  So even though I think Spence has a huge advantage in this fight, I never ignore the fact that Thurman is also a good boxer and has the capability to KO his opponent.

Yeah, a single lucky converted punch from Thurman. He can make Spence to kiss the floor. We would see that during the live event we can expect an upset indeed as, like what you said, both are power punchers and if Thurman will be given a chance, then he will not waste any to convert that winning punch.

But, on the other side, Spence is really smart expect him not to be careless and to just play it and bring the game to his favor.

[goinmerry]

Yeah, a single lucky converted punch from Thurman. He can make Spence to kiss the floor. We would see that during the live event we can expect an upset indeed as, like what you said, both are power punchers and if Thurman will be given a chance, then he will not waste any to convert that winning punch.

But, on the other side, Spence is really smart expect him not to be careless and to just play it and bring the game to his favor.

I'm not doubting Keith Thurman can find a good opening for a supposed lucky punch. But the question is, even Thurman will find many ways to penetrate his lucky punches, I'm doubting the power of those punches if capable of taking down Spence. Thurman is not that heavy puncher and since not active in big fights, that might result in his punches being soft, while on the other hand, Spence is currently at his peak so a simple with strong body resistance that a lucky punch can't just give a heavy toll on him.

Thurman is not also used on 154, and even the same with Spence, which is also not used on 154, it now depends on how active they are and maintain their shape during their training. If only Thurman remains active after losing to Pacquiao, he might have had the chance to pulverize Spence even at 154.

[Baofeng]

It is absolutely crazy to me that half the people in this thread voted for Thurman to beat Spence.
This is going to be one of the biggest mismatches we've seen.
Thurman can't take body shots, he hates fighting at a fast pace and I don't think he can fight in the pocket particularly well.
I have researched this fight extensively and I can't see one way that Thurman beats Spence.
I think Spence stops Thurman in the 9th round.

I have the same observation that Thurman might get KO'ed in this fight since he is weak against body punches which Spence can take advantage of.  But on the contrary, Thurman is also a knockout puncher.  There is also a possibility that Thurman might find some weaknesses in Spence and beat Spence with them.

In a fight between two knock-out punchers, anything might happen.  So even though I think Spence has a huge advantage in this fight, I never ignore the fact that Thurman is also a good boxer and has the capability to KO his opponent.

Yeah, what we call a "puncher's chance", if Spence will lose his concentration in this fight, even for just one, maybe Thurman will slip his best punch and caught Spence. Just like what happen to his fight against Ugas, there were momentarily slip and Ugas take advantage of it and Spence almost goes down.

Here is the clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI8PcDQ6ZiY

So who knows, on the other hand, Spence is a good body puncher too, and we have seen that Thurman doesn't want to get hit on the body. He grimaces in pain and move back, like in the Pacquiao fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g8152wanVI&t=17s

[inthelongrun]

It is absolutely crazy to me that half the people in this thread voted for Thurman to beat Spence.
This is going to be one of the biggest mismatches we've seen.
Thurman can't take body shots, he hates fighting at a fast pace and I don't think he can fight in the pocket particularly well.
I have researched this fight extensively and I can't see one way that Thurman beats Spence.
I think Spence stops Thurman in the 9th round.

You have to understand that some of the votes came from "personal reasons" disregarding the technical analysis.

It's not even crazy to think of since you can't blame people to ignore how strong Spence is knowing he's a big disappointment for some boxing enthusiasts for not having the courage to even push for the much-expected fight against Terence Crawford.

Moving forward though, I want to see the aftermath of this fight regardless of who will win. Lots of "what if" scenarios here that are worth to wait.

Yeah. Many will people vote according to what is in their hearts and not with what's in their minds. Also, Spence ducking Crawford for years now turned many fans into hatred and are wishing him to lose. I did vote for Spence KO/TKO as I don't see this current version of Thurman the same anymore before his accident wherein he went inactive for years and seems to lose his hunger and fire. But I also want Spence to lose here, TKO KO would be better. But yeah, Spence will be too good. He might respect Thurman a little in the early rounds and will stick to his jab and fight smart and then once he can find the range and rhythm he will start to push forward and will take him out in the 2nd half. I even doubt Thurman hasz the stamina to go 12 rounds with Spence.

[btc_angela]

It is absolutely crazy to me that half the people in this thread voted for Thurman to beat Spence.
This is going to be one of the biggest mismatches we've seen.
Thurman can't take body shots, he hates fighting at a fast pace and I don't think he can fight in the pocket particularly well.
I have researched this fight extensively and I can't see one way that Thurman beats Spence.
I think Spence stops Thurman in the 9th round.

You have to understand that some of the votes came from "personal reasons" disregarding the technical analysis.

It's not even crazy to think of since you can't blame people to ignore how strong Spence is knowing he's a big disappointment for some boxing enthusiasts for not having the courage to even push for the much-expected fight against Terence Crawford.

Moving forward though, I want to see the aftermath of this fight regardless of who will win. Lots of "what if" scenarios here that are worth to wait.

Yeah. Many will people vote according to what is in their hearts and not with what's in their minds. Also, Spence ducking Crawford for years now turned many fans into hatred and are wishing him to lose. I did vote for Spence KO/TKO as I don't see this current version of Thurman the same anymore before his accident wherein he went inactive for years and seems to lose his hunger and fire. But I also want Spence to lose here, TKO KO would be better. But yeah, Spence will be too good. He might respect Thurman a little in the early rounds and will stick to his jab and fight smart and then once he can find the range and rhythm he will start to push forward and will take him out in the 2nd half. I even doubt Thurman hasz the stamina to go 12 rounds with Spence.

Thurman might have really lose his hunger specially on how he lost to Manny. He was humbled by Pacquiao and then doesn't want to fight anymore until he comes back for Barrios but doesn't look good anymore. He is not known to have a good stamina or at least very vulnerable to body shots and for sure Spence are going to test that early. And then maybe faded rounds 8 and up and then really ripe to be taken out by him in 10 to 12 and maybe it's first time that he will lose by knockout.

[Japinat]

Thurman might have really lose his hunger specially on how he lost to Manny. He was humbled by Pacquiao and then doesn't want to fight anymore until he comes back for Barrios but doesn't look good anymore. He is not known to have a good stamina or at least very vulnerable to body shots and for sure Spence are going to test that early. And then maybe faded rounds 8 and up and then really ripe to be taken out by him in 10 to 12 and maybe it's first time that he will lose by knockout.

I don't think so. He probably has his personal reasons for not coming back right away after his defeat against Pacquiao. The one who defeated him is a legend, so that should not make him look bad. What's important is that he came back and won a fight. Now, he has an opportunity to beat Spence in a match, and although he is the underdog, it should not make people think that he has no chance of winning.

[stadus]

It is absolutely crazy to me that half the people in this thread voted for Thurman to beat Spence.
This is going to be one of the biggest mismatches we've seen.
Thurman can't take body shots, he hates fighting at a fast pace and I don't think he can fight in the pocket particularly well.
I have researched this fight extensively and I can't see one way that Thurman beats Spence.
I think Spence stops Thurman in the 9th round.

You have to understand that some of the votes came from "personal reasons" disregarding the technical analysis.

It's not even crazy to think of since you can't blame people to ignore how strong Spence is knowing he's a big disappointment for some boxing enthusiasts for not having the courage to even push for the much-expected fight against Terence Crawford.

Moving forward though, I want to see the aftermath of this fight regardless of who will win. Lots of "what if" scenarios here that are worth to wait.

Exactly mate, the votes made in this thread are not really because they favored Thurman and they believed that he is much stronger and skillful inside the ring. I mean, we probably know the answer about that but I'm one of those users who voted Thurman because of my personal hate towards Spence. Not just because he ducked the possible unification fight but also because they influenced the WBC to sanction the fight at 154 where it was supposed to happen at 147 as that's where Spence's belt is.

And same here, I just want to make this fight happen as soon as possible so that we will know what will be Spence's next step and Thurman as well as both boxers have nothing to lose here. No risks involved except adding either win or lose to their records.

[Baofeng]

It is absolutely crazy to me that half the people in this thread voted for Thurman to beat Spence.
This is going to be one of the biggest mismatches we've seen.
Thurman can't take body shots, he hates fighting at a fast pace and I don't think he can fight in the pocket particularly well.
I have researched this fight extensively and I can't see one way that Thurman beats Spence.
I think Spence stops Thurman in the 9th round.

You have to understand that some of the votes came from "personal reasons" disregarding the technical analysis.

It's not even crazy to think of since you can't blame people to ignore how strong Spence is knowing he's a big disappointment for some boxing enthusiasts for not having the courage to even push for the much-expected fight against Terence Crawford.

Moving forward though, I want to see the aftermath of this fight regardless of who will win. Lots of "what if" scenarios here that are worth to wait.

Exactly mate, the votes made in this thread are not really because they favored Thurman and they believed that he is much stronger and skillful inside the ring. I mean, we probably know the answer about that but I'm one of those users who voted Thurman because of my personal hate towards Spence. Not just because he ducked the possible unification fight but also because they influenced the WBC to sanction the fight at 154 where it was supposed to happen at 147 as that's where Spence's belt is.

And same here, I just want to make this fight happen as soon as possible so that we will know what will be Spence's next step and Thurman as well as both boxers have nothing to lose here. No risks involved except adding either win or lose to their records.

It's important though for Spence to continue and win so that he won't have any blemished in his records. While Thurman already suffered a lost, but happy to be in the position to pull an upset if he can pull an upset.

Yes, it's true there are a scenarios that could play in the future like

1. Spence vacating his belt and move to 154 lbs and chase Charlo if he wins here
2. By chance Spence lost this fight and maybe go for a rematch
3. Spence losing but go back to 147 lbs to defend his belt
4. Thurman retired for good if he lost badly as he doesn't have the fire inside
5. Thurman winning and rematch Spence but this time at 147 lbs with all the belts on the line
6. Thurman winning and move to 154 lbs for good

[Fredomago]

Yeah, a single lucky converted punch from Thurman. He can make Spence to kiss the floor. We would see that during the live event we can expect an upset indeed as, like what you said, both are power punchers and if Thurman will be given a chance, then he will not waste any to convert that winning punch.

But, on the other side, Spence is really smart expect him not to be careless and to just play it and bring the game to his favor.

I'm not doubting Keith Thurman can find a good opening for a supposed lucky punch. But the question is, even Thurman will find many ways to penetrate his lucky punches, I'm doubting the power of those punches if capable of taking down Spence. Thurman is not that heavy puncher and since not active in big fights, that might result in his punches being soft, while on the other hand, Spence is currently at his peak so a simple with strong body resistance that a lucky punch can't just give a heavy toll on him.

Thurman is not also used on 154, and even the same with Spence, which is also not used on 154, it now depends on how active they are and maintain their shape during their training. If only Thurman remains active after losing to Pacquiao, he might have had the chance to pulverize Spence even at 154.

Good question and with your assessment, it might be possible for Thurman to find that good opening, but like what you said, can he execute a solid punch to put Spence down and kiss the canvass? A big question mark and on the other side, Spence is still at his peak and if he will be the one that will get that opportunity to take an open punch, the chance to see Thurman to go down and suffer with a KO.

Still, no one can accurately predict what might happen here. Both sides have their own opportunities if they will execute the plan the right way.

[AmoreJaz]

Yeah, a single lucky converted punch from Thurman. He can make Spence to kiss the floor. We would see that during the live event we can expect an upset indeed as, like what you said, both are power punchers and if Thurman will be given a chance, then he will not waste any to convert that winning punch.

But, on the other side, Spence is really smart expect him not to be careless and to just play it and bring the game to his favor.

I'm not doubting Keith Thurman can find a good opening for a supposed lucky punch. But the question is, even Thurman will find many ways to penetrate his lucky punches, I'm doubting the power of those punches if capable of taking down Spence. Thurman is not that heavy puncher and since not active in big fights, that might result in his punches being soft, while on the other hand, Spence is currently at his peak so a simple with strong body resistance that a lucky punch can't just give a heavy toll on him.

Thurman is not also used on 154, and even the same with Spence, which is also not used on 154, it now depends on how active they are and maintain their shape during their training. If only Thurman remains active after losing to Pacquiao, he might have had the chance to pulverize Spence even at 154.

Good question and with your assessment, it might be possible for Thurman to find that good opening, but like what you said, can he execute a solid punch to put Spence down and kiss the canvass? A big question mark and on the other side, Spence is still at his peak and if he will be the one that will get that opportunity to take an open punch, the chance to see Thurman to go down and suffer with a KO.

Still, no one can accurately predict what might happen here. Both sides have their own opportunities if they will execute the plan the right way.

when Thurman lost to Pacquiao, his boxing career was put on hold. if he continued his career, i can agree that he can possibly beat spence easily. thurman right now is trying to get back again with the lost times. we don't know if this match will ever push thru. but thurman's camp can have their discussion to fight crawford, porter or danny garcia. whomever will agree with their camp. he needs to fight as soon as he can, so he's boxing career won't be stagnant for so long.

[harizen]

3. Spence losing but go back to 147 lbs to defend his belt

Regarding this, I encountered an article way back when this fight is just being under negotiation stating that Spence doesn't have the capability now to remain dominant at 147, and that leads him to push a fight at 154. If let's say Spence loses here, he will just definitely continue his journey at 154 and have no choice but to vacant his titles at 147, again lowering the chance that he will face Crawford.

Don't know though if that can be considered a "real" reason or "excuse".

Personally, though, I want Spence to lose this fight against Thurman regardless of how low the chance for that to happen, for my own purpose to see what will be his next step if he really loses this fight, go straight to 154 or will now face Terence Crawford finally for the unification fight. He will now be cornered lol.

[Kasabus]

1. Spence vacating his belt and move to 154 lbs and chase Charlo if he wins here

Regardless of who will win? I think that depends because those 3 belts are somehow important to his existence now and will not think twice again to use their influence. Aside from that, his next fight might be next year and will try to hold the belts as much as possible while also trying to test his luck in the upper division.

2. By chance Spence lost this fight and maybe go for a rematch

Hopefully if this scenario happens, Spence will be forced to risk his belt(s)

3. Spence losing but go back to 147 lbs to defend his belt

If by chance he will get defeated by Keith Thurman, then he will probably have the same outcome for the boxers at 147 who are also eyeing his belts as the names of Crawford, Ennis and Ortiz Jr. will not be giving him an easy journey as they are already fed by his nonsense for holding the belts for a long time.

[harizen]

2. By chance Spence lost this fight and maybe go for a rematch

Hopefully if this scenario happens, Spence will be forced to risk his belt(s)

Do you mean Spence will stake his belts for the rematch with Thurman if he loses here? What will be forced is, Spence will risks his belt at 147 and might possibly face Crawford although as I said previously, there might not a chance now to see Spence fighting at 147 due to some problems.

I mean that's not possible since if the rematch will happened with Thurman, it will still be in 154 and his titles are all in 147.

I don't know though the rules of what will happen if let's say, Spence will ask for a rematch with Thurman and if he's still eligible to do that without vacating all his titles at 147. I think that's a rare case to happen or I just missed some same scenario in boxing history.

[Distinctin]

2. By chance Spence lost this fight and maybe go for a rematch

Hopefully if this scenario happens, Spence will be forced to risk his belt(s)

Do you mean Spence will stake his belts for the rematch with Thurman if he loses here? What will be forced is, Spence will risks his belt at 147 and might possibly face Crawford although as I said previously, there might not a chance now to see Spence fighting at 147 due to some problems.

I mean that's not possible since if the rematch will happened with Thurman, it will still be in 154 and his titles are all in 147.

I don't know though the rules of what will happen if let's say, Spence will ask for a rematch with Thurman and if he's still eligible to do that without vacating all his titles at 147. I think that's a rare case to happen or I just missed some same scenario in boxing history.

What I think is that we might see a different scenario once Thurman is able to defeat Spence at 154, there's a strong chance that the latter will ask for a rematch but since a rematch clause wasn't written on their contract (I suppose), Thurman has the choice to decline the offer if there's no belts at risks. And if a rematch won't materialize, Spence has two choices, first is he will vacate his belts at 147 and second is that he will defend his belt at 147 with a risk of facing the boxers he ducked. And this time, I think that their influence won't be used even if they wanted to because the WBC is already under criticism because of this fight.

[stadus]

2. By chance Spence lost this fight and maybe go for a rematch

Hopefully if this scenario happens, Spence will be forced to risk his belt(s)

Do you mean Spence will stake his belts for the rematch with Thurman if he loses here? What will be forced is, Spence will risks his belt at 147 and might possibly face Crawford although as I said previously, there might not a chance now to see Spence fighting at 147 due to some problems.

I mean that's not possible since if the rematch will happened with Thurman, it will still be in 154 and his titles are all in 147.

I don't know though the rules of what will happen if let's say, Spence will ask for a rematch with Thurman and if he's still eligible to do that without vacating all his titles at 147. I think that's a rare case to happen or I just missed some same scenario in boxing history.

What I think is that we might see a different scenario once Thurman is able to defeat Spence at 154, there's a strong chance that the latter will ask for a rematch but since a rematch clause wasn't written on their contract (I suppose), Thurman has the choice to decline the offer if there's no belts at risks. And if a rematch won't materialize, Spence has two choices, first is he will vacate his belts at 147 and second is that he will defend his belt at 147 with a risk of facing the boxers he ducked. And this time, I think that their influence won't be used even if they wanted to because the WBC is already under criticism because of this fight.

If I will be on the shoes of Keith Thurman, I certainly wouldn't give Errol Spence a chance of a rematch in-case if I win especially if there are no belts on the line as it will be a total waste of time and preparations will be redundant. Thurman knew that he has to chase the right people in-order to grab the belts but considering Spence's behavior after he got the 3-belts, it's somehow convincing enough that he won't be giving the belts easily.

[carlisle1]

2. By chance Spence lost this fight and maybe go for a rematch

Hopefully if this scenario happens, Spence will be forced to risk his belt(s)

Do you mean Spence will stake his belts for the rematch with Thurman if he loses here? What will be forced is, Spence will risks his belt at 147 and might possibly face Crawford although as I said previously, there might not a chance now to see Spence fighting at 147 due to some problems.

I mean that's not possible since if the rematch will happened with Thurman, it will still be in 154 and his titles are all in 147.

I don't know though the rules of what will happen if let's say, Spence will ask for a rematch with Thurman and if he's still eligible to do that without vacating all his titles at 147. I think that's a rare case to happen or I just missed some same scenario in boxing history.

What I think is that we might see a different scenario once Thurman is able to defeat Spence at 154, there's a strong chance that the latter will ask for a rematch but since a rematch clause wasn't written on their contract (I suppose), Thurman has the choice to decline the offer if there's no belts at risks. And if a rematch won't materialize, Spence has two choices, first is he will vacate his belts at 147 and second is that he will defend his belt at 147 with a risk of facing the boxers he ducked. And this time, I think that their influence won't be used even if they wanted to because the WBC is already under criticism because of this fight.

If I will be on the shoes of Keith Thurman, I certainly wouldn't give Errol Spence a chance of a rematch in-case if I win especially if there are no belts on the line as it will be a total waste of time and preparations will be redundant. Thurman knew that he has to chase the right people in-order to grab the belts but considering Spence's behavior after he got the 3-belts, it's somehow convincing enough that he won't be giving the belts easily.

Yeah right! It's much better to chase a title fight considering that if he win the fight against Spence his camp might activate
a negotiation against Crawford who are always there willing to show up and defend his belt.

Unlike with Spence who always wants everything is in his favor, Crawford would love to take Thurman in case that he upset Spence,

a good hype for their both careers and surely a big event that can bring huge chunks of money on their both pockets.

[btc_angela]

Thurman might have really lose his hunger specially on how he lost to Manny. He was humbled by Pacquiao and then doesn't want to fight anymore until he comes back for Barrios but doesn't look good anymore. He is not known to have a good stamina or at least very vulnerable to body shots and for sure Spence are going to test that early. And then maybe faded rounds 8 and up and then really ripe to be taken out by him in 10 to 12 and maybe it's first time that he will lose by knockout.

I don't think so. He probably has his personal reasons for not coming back right away after his defeat against Pacquiao. The one who defeated him is a legend, so that should not make him look bad. What's important is that he came back and won a fight. Now, he has an opportunity to beat Spence in a match, and although he is the underdog, it should not make people think that he has no chance of winning.

It look bad on him because he was trash talking Manny Pacquiao in public to the point that he is humiliating the legend. And then he lost the fight and he was ridiculed by anyone in the boxing community for losing to a old 40 year old boxer. And just like Hatton in the past, after that humiliating lost as well, he went into depression and wasn't able to box. So it took him time to fight again versus Barrios but it was not the same Thurman. So if we are going to base on his last performance, it will be hard pressed for us to believed that he has a chance against a version of this Spence.

[TravelMug]

2. By chance Spence lost this fight and maybe go for a rematch

Hopefully if this scenario happens, Spence will be forced to risk his belt(s)

Do you mean Spence will stake his belts for the rematch with Thurman if he loses here? What will be forced is, Spence will risks his belt at 147 and might possibly face Crawford although as I said previously, there might not a chance now to see Spence fighting at 147 due to some problems.

I mean that's not possible since if the rematch will happened with Thurman, it will still be in 154 and his titles are all in 147.

I don't know though the rules of what will happen if let's say, Spence will ask for a rematch with Thurman and if he's still eligible to do that without vacating all his titles at 147. I think that's a rare case to happen or I just missed some same scenario in boxing history.

What I think is that we might see a different scenario once Thurman is able to defeat Spence at 154, there's a strong chance that the latter will ask for a rematch but since a rematch clause wasn't written on their contract (I suppose), Thurman has the choice to decline the offer if there's no belts at risks. And if a rematch won't materialize, Spence has two choices, first is he will vacate his belts at 147 and second is that he will defend his belt at 147 with a risk of facing the boxers he ducked. And this time, I think that their influence won't be used even if they wanted to because the WBC is already under criticism because of this fight.

If I will be on the shoes of Keith Thurman, I certainly wouldn't give Errol Spence a chance of a rematch in-case if I win especially if there are no belts on the line as it will be a total waste of time and preparations will be redundant. Thurman knew that he has to chase the right people in-order to grab the belts but considering Spence's behavior after he got the 3-belts, it's somehow convincing enough that he won't be giving the belts easily.

Might be, but they are under the same promotional company in PBC, so there is a good chance that they are going to be a rematch if Spence losses to Thurman. Of course, Thurman might get the bigger share or at least 50/50 split in the rematch.

However, not sure if Thurman will allow this happen, maybe if he was caught by a lucky punch and then go down and knockout. But if the score went to judges scorecard, maybe they will give Spence the benefit as he is one of the cash cow right now.