[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[smooth]

Hello XMR

* P3RS3US waves a white flag

I come in peace.

Please could you supply me with numbers for tx fees to ring sizes (mixin), for 0,1,2,3, 8 and 16
thank you.

or pls link me to a spreadsheet if u have one. ty

Whether or not he has an agenda it is a reasonable question, so I will answer it.

There is no set fee as a function of mix (ring) size, it depends on the size of the transaction which is a function of the header, the number of inputs, the mix factor and the number of outputs. The number of inputs is of equal importance as the mix factor.

A typical range is between 1 kbytes and 20 kbytes, with a fee of 0.01 XMR (currently around 80 USD cents) per kb. So that's anywhere from <0.01 USD to 0.16 USD. Something like 0.03-0.05 is fairly typical. The fee was last adjusted when the price of XMR was around 1/3 of where it was now, so if the price continues to do well the fee would probably get bumped down in some future version (as has happened with BTC several times)

ty smooth.

Is a user able to determine the number of inputs or is it random?

It depends what has been sent to you. If you were sent only one large payment, then your translation will have only one input. If you have received many small payments (most common example of this is a small miner) then your transaction will have many inputs.

For this reason I can't give a specific example. You can check http://moneroblocks.eu

[1714950969]

1714950969

[1714950969]

1714950969

[smooth]

it would be super cool to make that dynamic somehow. Perhaps if the network could measure its own activity .... e.g., if there are more transactions in a block, the fee is less because its assumed the value of each XMR is more...

This is basically how bitcoin works starting with 0.10. Your fee is set by your wallet based on how long you are willing to wait for confirmation and an estimate of what fee will accomplish that (higher=faster). Monero will likely be similar at some level of maturity.

[P3RS3US]

Hello XMR

* P3RS3US waves a white flag

I come in peace.

Please could you supply me with numbers for tx fees to ring sizes (mixin), for 0,1,2,3, 8 and 16
thank you.

or pls link me to a spreadsheet if u have one. ty

Whether or not he has an agenda it is a reasonable question, so I will answer it.

There is no set fee as a function of mix (ring) size, it depends on the size of the transaction which is a function of the header, the number of inputs, the mix factor and the number of outputs. The number of inputs is of equal importance as the mix factor.

A typical range is between 1 kbytes and 20 kbytes, with a fee of 0.01 XMR (currently around 80 USD cents) per kb. So that's anywhere from <0.01 USD to 0.16 USD. Something like 0.03-0.05 is fairly typical. The fee was last adjusted when the price of XMR was around 1/3 of where it was now, so if the price continues to do well the fee would probably get bumped down in some future version (as has happened with BTC several times)

ty smooth.

Is a user able to determine the number of inputs or is it random?

It depends what has been sent to you. If you were sent only one large payment, then your translation will have only one input. If you have received many small payments (most common example of this is a small miner) then your transaction will have many inputs.

For this reason I can't give a specific example. You can check http://moneroblocks.eu

Let's say it was one large payment for 1000 XMR (one input, 16 ringsize). Can we calculate that?

many thanks smooth. will check moneroblocks. Will wait for your reply and am unlikely to post again for the time being.

cheers.

[othe]

http://moneroblocks.eu/tx/1e46f632ffdfdf638a5f3ee22ae61d58a3db922a899575a8889e6ff53156fb48

Heres one, 2k XMR, mixin of 10. Fee is 0.1. That tx is < 2kb so he could have send it cheaper, for 0.02 XMR.
Was sent prolly with an older wallet version.


Keep in mind we have no idea how much the receiver really got.

and btw. Ringsize != Mixin number.

[dickpeterjohnson]

I need some info before I invest in this coin. After reading about it I am thinking yeah this is a great alt to bitcoin but one thing i bothering me and I hope someone that is a lot smarter than I am can help.

Does the NSA have a backdoor to this coin revealing all? I am not trolling. I got this from a wiki page:

NSA involvement

There are speculations about CryptoNote being developed under the guidance of NSA. Following facts are mentioned as indicating a possible connections between NSA and CryptoNote development team:[88]

    Keccak hash has been chosen as a proof-of-work function in CryptoNote several months before it has been announced as SHA-3 hash function competition winner.
    NSA report about electronic cash outlines the necessity of using blind signatures in order to achieve anonymity.
    Using non-deterministic random in CryptoNote signatures might be a backdoor intentionally left by NSA in reference implementation.
    Being ASIC-resistant, CryptoNote-based currencies can be easily manipulated by NSA possessing big computational resources.

SOURCE:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CryptoNote#NSA_involvement

In the POST-SNOWDEN paradigm I am suspicious. Call this my due diligence.

Thank you in advance

DPJ

[othe]

Of course not, our proof of work is called cryptonight, even on that point the wiki is wrong.

Darkcoin uses keccak in X11 btw.

Wiki is prolly manipulated by the NSA

Also the crypto is based on NaCL/Libsodium from DJB (Daniel J. Bernstein), hes the archenemy of the NSA, literally.

Check Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_J._Bernstein but keep in mind wiki is one huge manipulated piece of shit.

[Hueristic]

it would be super cool to make that dynamic somehow. Perhaps if the network could measure its own activity .... e.g., if there are more transactions in a block, the fee is less because its assumed the value of each XMR is more...

This is basically how bitcoin works starting with 0.10. Your fee is set by your wallet based on how long you are willing to wait for confirmation and an estimate of what fee will accomplish that (higher=faster). Monero will likely be similar at some level of maturity.

I was thinking he meant tied to fiat.

I need some info before I invest in this coin. After reading about it I am thinking yeah this is a great alt to bitcoin but one thing i bothering me and I hope someone that is a lot smarter than I am can help.

Does the NSA have a backdoor to this coin revealing all? I am not trolling. I got this from a wiki page:

NSA involvement

There are speculations about CryptoNote being developed under the guidance of NSA. Following facts are mentioned as indicating a possible connections between NSA and CryptoNote development team:[88]

    Keccak hash has been chosen as a proof-of-work function in CryptoNote several months before it has been announced as SHA-3 hash function competition winner.
    NSA report about electronic cash outlines the necessity of using blind signatures in order to achieve anonymity.
    Using non-deterministic random in CryptoNote signatures might be a backdoor intentionally left by NSA in reference implementation.
    Being ASIC-resistant, CryptoNote-based currencies can be easily manipulated by NSA possessing big computational resources.

SOURCE:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CryptoNote#NSA_involvement

In the POST-SNOWDEN paradigm I am suspicious. Call this my due diligence.

Thank you in advance

DPJ

Any "Backdoors" would have been found ages ago. Just read some of the history and you will see how this "Open Source" code has been vetted.

[dickpeterjohnson]

Of course not, our proof of work is called cryptonight, even on that point the wiki is wrong.

Darkcoin uses keccak in X11 btw.

Ok. I see that now. There are too many algos and too many with similar names.

[xmrnoob]

Fees are calculated by kilobyte.

[...]

We are as well as every other sane cryptocurrency charging per space in the blockchain, thats all that is intersting for us.

Could someone expand a bit on minimum fees, differentiating between any minimum in the protocol for the tx to be valid, amount set by commonly used client(s), and amount required by widely-used mining software.

Unless the situation is very different from bitcoin, these are three different things.  With Bitcoin, the protocol minimum is zero, most miners require X (has changed a few times in reference code, some miners still accept zero-fees), and reference client typically sends Y (has also changed, not at same time as X).

[xmrnoob]

Please could someone help with some questions I have.  I'm just getting started with XMR.

When a wallet is described at https://moneroeconomy.com/news/choose-your-wallet as doing "remote node", what is this more analogous to: a bitcoin wallet which uses the RPC interface and believes the results, or an SPV bitcoin client?  I don't know if the SPV concept maps over into Monero.  But is it possible to have a wallet mode of operation with Monero where just block headers and our own transactions are verified?

My bitmonerod is currently downloading the blockchain and it's going to take a while.  If there was an SPV-alike mode available so I could get on and have a play with balances and sending transactions, that would be great.

[smooth]

http://moneroblocks.eu/tx/1e46f632ffdfdf638a5f3ee22ae61d58a3db922a899575a8889e6ff53156fb48

Heres one, 2k XMR, mixin of 10. Fee is 0.1. That tx is < 2kb so he could have send it cheaper, for 0.02 XMR.
Was sent prolly with an older wallet version.


Keep in mind we have no idea how much the receiver really got.

and btw. Ringsize != Mixin number.

That one has two inputs though, so with one input the signatures would be half the size. Probably <1k, although it depends also on the number of outputs.

[smooth]

Please could someone help with some questions I have.  I'm just getting started with XMR.

When a wallet is described at https://moneroeconomy.com/news/choose-your-wallet as doing "remote node", what is this more analogous to: a bitcoin wallet which uses the RPC interface and believes the results, or an SPV bitcoin client?  I don't know if the SPV concept maps over into Monero.  But is it possible to have a wallet mode of operation with Monero where just block headers and our own transactions are verified?

Yes it is. The tradeoffs are slightly worse than BTC but still not too bad.

First of all you need to retrieve the header chain from multiple sources and verify against each other to avoid trusting any one of them. It is possible to skip some blocks on each source and spot check at a coinfigurable confidence level, but that's probably not necessary since the headers are small. This has a higher verification cost than Bitcoin because of the PoW but a single core can verify about 50 blocks/sec, so even at the current overly-high block rate this is about 30 seconds per day single threaded to sync up. Cheap smartphones will do worse (no AES hardware) but the latest ones do have AES hardware and should be similar.

Second you need to do one of three things:

1) pass your view key to a server, which scans for new outputs for you. This imposes a large CPU load on the server and compromises your privacy. This probably makes sense only for the most bandwidth-constrained use cases, and might also need some kind of fee-for-service model given the server load.

2) Retrieve all of the output keys and scan them for new outputs yourself. These are quite small, only 32 bytes each, so that's going to be a few percent of the entire chain size.

3) Run your own server at home or on a VPS that does this in the background (could be a very cheap raspberry pi type device) and connect to it somehow to quickly identify your transactions without compromising your privacy.

Third you need to retrieve either the full blocks that contain your transactions (identified above) or a merkle proof of inclusion for the truncations that have outputs for you. You can spread these across servers and/or add as many dummy transactions/blocks as you want to protect your privacy.

At this point you have a cryptographic proof that you have received the funds, subject to the usual assumption that you have in fact found the longest chain, although as long as you can somehow find even a single server with the longest chain, the others can't fool you. Plus of course you are not verifying the entire chain and relying on the standard SPV assumption that only valid payments are mined (same as Bitcoin). Unfortunately, if your entire connection is controlled by an attacker, they can fool you with a fake chain (also the same as Bitcoin).

None of the current wallets do this, although I've been considering creating a version of simplewallet (command line) that would do it for demonstration purposes at least. Could also be used by the wallets that currently work as wrappers I suppose.

[dEBRUYNE]

Please could someone help with some questions I have.  I'm just getting started with XMR.

When a wallet is described at https://moneroeconomy.com/news/choose-your-wallet as doing "remote node", what is this more analogous to: a bitcoin wallet which uses the RPC interface and believes the results, or an SPV bitcoin client?  I don't know if the SPV concept maps over into Monero.  But is it possible to have a wallet mode of operation with Monero where just block headers and our own transactions are verified?

My bitmonerod is currently downloading the blockchain and it's going to take a while.  If there was an SPV-alike mode available so I could get on and have a play with balances and sending transactions, that would be great.

You can use jwinterm's lightweight wallet or Jojatekok's wallet since they bot rely on the remote node. Using these wallets you basically rely on someone else running the deamon (hence remote node), in this way you won't have to run the deamon, synchronize it and store the blockchain. Furthermore, the wallet will not use your RAM significantly like the Qt GUI does. Running this wallet allows you to play with balances and sending transactions. I hope this answer was sufficient for you.

Regarding your other questions, I will leave this open to the more technically known members regarding that subject.

[smooth]

Fees are calculated by kilobyte.

[...]

We are as well as every other sane cryptocurrency charging per space in the blockchain, thats all that is intersting for us.

Could someone expand a bit on minimum fees, differentiating between any minimum in the protocol for the tx to be valid, amount set by commonly used client(s), and amount required by widely-used mining software.

Unless the situation is very different from bitcoin, these are three different things.  With Bitcoin, the protocol minimum is zero, most miners require X (has changed a few times in reference code, some miners still accept zero-fees), and reference client typically sends Y (has also changed, not at same time as X).

XMR is exactly the same as Bitcoin in this respect, except that Bitcoin's priority (used for fee-free transactions) does not exist as it makes little sense if you can't tell the age of the coins being spent. So there is a relay minimum (for p2p) per kb and a default fee formula (also per-kb) that is used by the standard wallet and mining code. None of this is defined in the protocol and both the wallet and miner formulas can be changed unilaterally.

[dEBRUYNE]

I have a strange issue that occurred while sending out xmr from mymonero to poloniex the other day, which has left me wondering where several thousand of my xmr have disappeared to....

The amount sent from mymonero does not correspond to the amount reported by moneroblocks when searching with the payment ID, which in turn does not correspond to the amount received by poloniex. From mymonero to poloniex there is a discrepancy of -4000 xmr...


Where do I start to figure out what is going on here?

I would advise to contact Fluffypony (owner of MyMonero) on IRC, since it's much easier to communicate on there than using bitcointalk. If you are not familiar with IRC, just use this link -> http://webchat.freenode.net/. Set your nickname and set the channel to #monero, you could ask openly for him in the channel or just sent him a personal message (use /query fluffypony or just press on his nick). If you are familiar with irc just join #monero on freenode. The issue will probably be resolved soon if you get in touch with him.

PS: He is probably sleeping right now, but should be online tomorrow. Good luck with resolving your issue!

[Anon136]

I have a strange issue that occurred while sending out xmr from mymonero to poloniex the other day, which has left me wondering where several thousand of my xmr have disappeared to....

The amount sent from mymonero does not correspond to the amount reported by moneroblocks when searching with the payment ID, which in turn does not correspond to the amount received by poloniex. From mymonero to poloniex there is a discrepancy of -4000 xmr...


Where do I start to figure out what is going on here?

This is normal. The thing is your wallet created change addresses and sent back change, but that change hasnt confirmed yet. So you are seeing the monero that was stored on keys that didnt need to be used as inputs to the transaction and not seeing the monero that needed to be used as inputs but was in excess of the amount delivered. Atleast that is unless this happened a while ago and you still havnt seen the balance update, in which case, what the gentleman said above.

[smooth]

I have a strange issue that occurred while sending out xmr from mymonero to poloniex the other day, which has left me wondering where several thousand of my xmr have disappeared to....

The amount sent from mymonero does not correspond to the amount reported by moneroblocks when searching with the payment ID, which in turn does not correspond to the amount received by poloniex. From mymonero to poloniex there is a discrepancy of -4000 xmr...


Where do I start to figure out what is going on here?

I would advise to contact Fluffypony (owner of MyMonero) on IRC, since it's much easier to communicate on there than using bitcointalk. If you are not familiar with IRC, just use this link -> http://webchat.freenode.net/. Set your nickname and set the channel to #monero, you could ask openly for him in the channel or just sent him a personal message (use /query fluffypony or just press on his nick). If you are familiar with irc just join #monero on freenode. The issue will probably be resolved soon if you get in touch with him.

PS: He is probably sleeping right now, but should be online tomorrow. Good luck with resolving your issue!

Follow this advice. He usually comes back online roughly 7 hours from now.

[David Latapie]

I need some info before I invest in this coin.

It won't answer your NSA question, but since you are talking about investing... Letter to an investor.

[dEBRUYNE]

I was thinking about it and realized the latest missive wasn't even crossposted here. So here it is:

https://forum.getmonero.org/1/news-announcements-and-editorials/245/monday-monero-missives-27-march-23rd-2015

To download the podcast directly please use this link to the MP3 , or this link to the AAC/MP4 , or this link to the FLAC .

A brief summary of the points discussed follows, a full transcription of the podcast is outstanding (can be submitted via Github Issues).

In this week's podcast we discuss the new blockchain utilities in preparation for their final merge.

1. blockchain_converter converts between database types, right now its only job is to convert from the old in-RAM system to an lmdb database. It chews memory, though, as it has to keep the blockchain in RAM as well as the lmdb driver.

2. blockchain_export takes the default database (set at compile time) and exports it to a blockchain.raw file. This is the file we're going to make available for download as the blockchain bootstrap in future.

3. blockchain_import imports from the blockchain.raw file into whatever database format (specified at runtime, the default database is specified at compile time). It allows you to import with verification off for the fastest possible speed, specify LMDB options, and specify a batching count for loading in chunks.

Until next week!

I know the devs encourage us to use the official forum, hence why the missive is posted there, but I still think it's better for awareness and visibility to also crosspost it here.

[dEBRUYNE]

Wasn't there talk of the feature to import funds into mymonero by using just the deterministic seed? Is this integrated now and if so does anyone know how to do so?

Yes there is and it is currently working:

MyMonero has added existing wallet import functionality. Just use your 25 word mnemonic from simplewallet when logging in, and after paying the 10 XMR once-off fee your wallet will be available in MyMonero.

More info can be found here:

https://getmonero.org/2015/03/09/monero-missive-for-the-week-of-2015-03-09.html