[ANN][MOTO] Motocoin

[c-cex]

Hello!
Being the only exchange for MOTO at the moment I would like to ask You for some feedback of our service.
Are You satisfied? Maybe something to improve? Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance.

[DeepCryptoanalist3]

#9147 - The first coin that this particular bot grabbed.  It is funny because there were still several bugs in the algorithm.  The bot used all 60 of its moves immediately, for example.
#10573 - Most bugs fixed by here, a cute run.
#10925 - The last play by the first main iteration of this bot's code.  You can see it is already much improved here, with most of the bugs in the basic implementation sorted out.
#11053 - The second major iteration of the code, and where the bot started really earning the flipper name.
#11061 - Just one of my favorite blocks, I like how the bot bounces off the ground upside down at the end to grab the coin.
#11164 - Some slight improvements to the acceleration control algorithm, now with even more tightly controlled flippage.  I basically "borrowed" some tricks from the other bots to optimize at this point.

The maps are also looks rather simple. Is this a pure luck or your bot also iterate through the maps? How much CPU time your bot needs to decide if the map is easy to go or not? If this is easy then the map shall be enlarged to prevent such a hack. Or we will see a bots competition on an easy to go maps in a nearest future and human will have no chance there for sure.

Hm... actually map enlarging will also make mining process more interesting and less nervous. Skill will be more important on a bigger map then a pure luck.

[HunterMinerCrafter]

Hello!
Being the only exchange for MOTO at the moment I would like to ask You for some feedback of our service.
Are You satisfied? Maybe something to improve? Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance.

More liquidity would be nice.  Margin would be nice.

Market freeze policy to insulate panic dumps like MOTO saw in the past 12 hours would be very nice, so we aren't left with order-of-magnitude spreads. 

Basically just become Bitfinex for altcoin pairs and I'll be very happy, myself.   

[c-cex]

Hello!
Being the only exchange for MOTO at the moment I would like to ask You for some feedback of our service.
Are You satisfied? Maybe something to improve? Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance.

More liquidity would be nice.  Margin would be nice.
Market freeze policy to insulate panic dumps like MOTO saw in the past 12 hours would be very nice, so we aren't left with order-of-magnitude spreads. 
Basically just become Bitfinex for altcoin pairs and I'll be very happy, myself.   

Liquidity - You mean trade volumes? More traders?
Margin - yes, good and standard feature for fiat exchanges but very hard to implement for crypto.
We do market freeze only by request of coin owner/developer. We did not receive any request to freeze from MOTO.
Will learn Bitfinex deeper. Thank You.

[HunterMinerCrafter]

The maps are also looks rather simple. Is this a pure luck or your bot also iterate through the maps? How much CPU time your bot needs to decide if the map is easy to go or not?

Smart man, indeed.

I'll not say too much, as I wouldn't want to give away too much of my edge to the other botters.

However, yes, there is a pre-processing phase for map selection, and this is critical for anyone wanting to make even a naive bot be successful.  This is (relatively) time consuming, since the map generation is based on SHA512 rounds.  (My "best bot" actively tries to balance time spent on map selection and time spent on terrain traversal.)

If this is easy then the map shall be enlarged to prevent such a hack.

The bots would just have to modify the map selection process some to compensate.  Basically, a larger map would deter the bots, but not in the way that you might think.  (Perhaps we could discuss this further in PM/IRC or something?)

Or we will see a bots competition on an easy to go maps in a nearest future and human will have no chance there for sure.

Skilled players already do this map processioning step themselves, as well.  A good player will hit f6 in S mode quite a bit, quickly assessing maps, and then will zoom back in to fly to their coin.  (My whole bot design is modeled after observation of how a successful human player plays.)

Hm... actually map enlarging will also make mining process more interesting and less nervous. Skill will be more important on a bigger map then a pure luck.

True, and this would make the balance between "traversal time" and TargetTime threshold even more relevant, as well.... but it will not actually slow the map selection process much.

If you really want to "beat the bots" however, the solution would be something like random obstacle courses.  Right now, the fact that the game has 0 "modality" in the solution space is what makes it most weak to bots.  If completing a course required a selection of skills applied at different times (instead of "the same 2-3 skills" applied continuously through the whole run, as it is now) this would significantly hamper the bots.  (It would also make the coin an even stronger driver of AI research, hehe.)

[WilliamLie2]

Main reason why this was botted is because of these fall-thru maps. Bots probably just find these maps and then play them looking several seconds into the future and choose actions that will move them closer to the coin. I believe, it is much harder to complete usual map with bot because sometimes you need to actually move in opposite dirrection from the coin.

What can we do to prevent bots?
1. Change level generation algorithm to prevent fall-thru maps. This is the main countermeasure against bots.
2. Increase map size.
3. Use some sort of Scrypt/X11 in map generation to prevent fast map enumeration.

This will definitely take some time to implement.

[HunterMinerCrafter]

Liquidity - You mean trade volumes? More traders?

I meant it as something of a joke, but yes.  I was not particularly aware of c-cex or the ways in which it is a unique offering in the space until MOTO.  Perhaps you should do more advertising targeted at potential market makers?

Margin - yes, good and standard feature for fiat exchanges but very hard to implement for crypto.

If done like Bitfinex ("peer lending" swaps model) it should work exactly the same regardless of if the swap is BTC/USD or DRK/LTC... you just keep a CFD pair with an attached interest schedule, and a cron job to process the interest payments on positions.

We do market freeze only by request of coin owner/developer. We did not receive any request to freeze from MOTO.
Will learn Bitfinex deeper. Thank You.

Although this is something often "rallied against" in the crypto-currency space having these sort of control policies is something that (traditionally, IRL) distinguishes "real markets" from fly-by-night operations.

[HunterMinerCrafter]

Main reason why this was botted is because of these fall-thru maps. Bots probably just find these maps and then play them looking several seconds into future and choosing actions that will move them closer to the coin.

It is funny you should mention this.  Yesterday I was actually playing with some "try to always move toward coin" type heuristics and found that it actually *significantly* decreased production!

I believe, it is much harder to complete usual map with bot because sometimes you need to actually move in opposite dirrection from the coin.

The F6 key is very important for both humans and bots.

What can we do to prevent bots?

You can do nothing to prevent them, only mitigate them.  On a long enough curve, bots will out-think us on anything we throw at them.

Welcome to the new age.

I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords.

1. Change level generation algorithm to prevent fall-thru maps. This is the main countermeasure against bots.

Changes to map generation semantics will have less effect than you might intuitively think.  The best changes to map generation will be ones that make TargetTime more relevant.

2. Increase map size.

Actually does practically nothing to hamper the bots, on its own.

3. Use some sort of Scrypt/X11 in map generation to prevent fast map enumeration.

This is kind of "the litecoin argument" I guess.  Scrypt has ASICs now, X11 will not be far behind.  You'd need to make map generation in-feasibly difficult for this to really "matter" - and it would significantly hamper human play in the process. (Imagine waiting 5-10 seconds each time you pressed F6?)

This will definitely take some time to implement.

Here we get to the crux of the matter.  We are facing an asymmetry with each-other.  You will spend days/weeks implementing changes to deter the bots, and might even knock the more basic ones out of the running, but the good AIs will adapt within minutes/hours of your hard forks, in perpetuity.  This is not a bad thing!  THIS is why I say coins like these will offer direct incentive for AI research.

GAME ON!

[c-cex]

Liquidity - You mean trade volumes? More traders?

I meant it as something of a joke, but yes.  I was not particularly aware of c-cex or the ways in which it is a unique offering in the space until MOTO.  Perhaps you should do more advertising targeted at potential market makers?

Margin - yes, good and standard feature for fiat exchanges but very hard to implement for crypto.

If done like Bitfinex ("peer lending" swaps model) it should work exactly the same regardless of if the swap is BTC/USD or DRK/LTC... you just keep a CFD pair with an attached interest schedule, and a cron job to process the interest payments on positions.

We do market freeze only by request of coin owner/developer. We did not receive any request to freeze from MOTO.
Will learn Bitfinex deeper. Thank You.

Although this is something often "rallied against" in the crypto-currency space having these sort of control policies is something that (traditionally, IRL) distinguishes "real markets" from fly-by-night operations.

Thank You very much. Will take to serious consideration.

[DeepCryptoanalist3]

The bots would just have to modify the map selection process some to compensate.  Basically, a larger map would deter the bots, but not in the way that you might think.  (Perhaps we could discuss this further in PM/IRC or something?)

At least it will prevent bots from selection such a simple map. Those maps you provided are also very easy to go by a human not only by a bot. Your "pre-processing phase for map selection" shall be made impractical. The number of random obstacles on a way from start to finish shall be big enough to prevent you from choosing a map with a simple route through the simple iteration over few maps. I am really confused about this flaw in game design. I thought that the map is huge enough and prevents such a hack.

[coelto]

Main reason why this was botted is because of these fall-thru maps. Bots probably just find these maps and then play them looking several seconds into the future and choose actions that will move them closer to the coin. I believe, it is much harder to complete usual map with bot because sometimes you need to actually move in opposite dirrection from the coin.

What can we do to prevent bots?
1. Change level generation algorithm to prevent fall-thru maps. This is the main countermeasure against bots.
2. Increase map size.
3. Use some sort of Scrypt/X11 in map generation to prevent fast map enumeration.

This will definitely take some time to implement.

Will it be a restart of the coin or just fix?

[Spiky]

Maybe UTC should be used as a nonce for map generation, I think it's safe to assume that 50+% motocoin users have correct system time (+/- 5 seconds)

[HunterMinerCrafter]

Your "pre-processing phase for map selection" shall be made impractical.

The map generation itself would have to be changed rather drastically.  Again, I don't want to say too much and give away some of my edge, but perhaps the phrase "early bailout" means something for you?

Look closely at the map "seed" generation and how it relates to the perlin function...

Unless that relationship is changed dramatically, the bailout will save the bots, there.

But this is probably already too "telling" now, so I won't say more. 

[ivanlabrie]

Liquidity - You mean trade volumes? More traders?

I meant it as something of a joke, but yes.  I was not particularly aware of c-cex or the ways in which it is a unique offering in the space until MOTO.  Perhaps you should do more advertising targeted at potential market makers?

Margin - yes, good and standard feature for fiat exchanges but very hard to implement for crypto.

If done like Bitfinex ("peer lending" swaps model) it should work exactly the same regardless of if the swap is BTC/USD or DRK/LTC... you just keep a CFD pair with an attached interest schedule, and a cron job to process the interest payments on positions.

We do market freeze only by request of coin owner/developer. We did not receive any request to freeze from MOTO.
Will learn Bitfinex deeper. Thank You.

Although this is something often "rallied against" in the crypto-currency space having these sort of control policies is something that (traditionally, IRL) distinguishes "real markets" from fly-by-night operations.

Thank You very much. Will take to serious consideration.

If you do indeed achieve a bitfinex 2.0 for alt coins you'll have the absolute best crypto exchange for alt coin pairs...EVER.
I'd 1000% trade there!

[DeepCryptoanalist3]

2. Increase map size.

Actually does practically nothing to hamper the bots, on its own.

Give me your map preselection algorithm and I will go through the map manually. Pressing F6 and visually analyzing map is boring and time consuming process. I was never that lucky as your algorithm according to the maps you provided. How many maps your preselection algorithm is reviewing in one second? It is impossible to accomplish the same manually. Bigger map will broke your preselection phase. You wouldn't be able to enumerate that many maps to find one without the obstacle on the way from start to finish in time.

Bigger map will also make much more difficult to decide where to go. The heuristic will be more difficult for a bot creator to code.

Also we should take into account that you are a bot owner and you aren't interested in arrangements against bots. You can try to foul the trail

[psychocoin]

2. Increase map size.

Actually does practically nothing to hamper the bots, on its own.

Give me your map preselection algorithm and I will go through the map manually. Pressing F6 and visually analyzing map is boring and time consuming process. I was never that lucky as your algorithm according to the maps you provided. How many maps your preselection algorithm is reviewing in one second? It is impossible to accomplish the same manually. Bigger map will broke your preselection phase. You wouldn't be able to enumerate that many maps to find one without the obstacle on the way from start to finish in time.

Bigger map will also make much more difficult to decide where to go. The heuristic will be more difficult for a bot creator to code.

Also we should take into account that you are a bot owner and you aren't interested in arrangements against bots. You can try to foul the trail

What makes you think it is more difficult for a bot to decide where to go than for a human? That's pretty naive.

[HunterMinerCrafter]

Bigger map will broke your preselection phase.

I won't say more about this for now, I already gave too much hints with my last post.  Now I guess it is just wait and "we will see?"

Bigger map will also make much more difficult to decide where to go. The heuristic will be more difficult for a bot creator to code.

The heuristics would be more or less the same, the bot does not consider the whole map during traversal phase.

Also we should take into account that you are a bot owner and you aren't interested in arrangements against bots. You can try to foul the trail

Sure, but mostly I am interested in seeing both sides of the respective challenges succeed at their tasks!  The more that is done to deter the bots the smarter our bots will have to get, and humanity benefits both from a more secure coin, and better machine learning.

P.S.
I'd be interested in hearing the other bot operators' perspectives on all of this.  Surely I can't be the only one willing to come forward and chime in on the discussion?  Cmon guys, I know you're out there!

[Spiky]

I think the most efficient antibot action would be increasing physics ticks per second to some immense number (like 1000000)

[gogomymoto]

Yeah, from coin for human to coin for 2-3 botowners in 2 weaks 

[HunterMinerCrafter]

I've been speaking with one of the other botters now, we randomly bumped into each other on c-cex chat...

It seems he likely triggered the big sell-off last night.  It looked to him like the network was having problem, and at the same time the buy side of the book was thinning, so he did the perfectly rational thing and sold the lot.  Woops, the network *wasn't* having any problems, and the buy side showed resiliency and refilled the books quickly (despite leaving an epic spread over an order of magnitude large) albeit at a large discount bid.

The index error seems to be a side-effect of some weird blocks, and is annoying but benign.  The fork rate of the network today is actually *much* lower than yesterday so far, probably because all 3-4 of us botters seem to have backed off slightly since being "discovered" and coming to the realization that we could quickly compete ourselves out of a market to sell to.....

(I'd like to set up something like a mining pool for the botters so that we can compete without risking such extreme chain forks.  Yesterday's huge forks were painful for everyone.)

I think that since there wasn't actually some fundamental trigger for the selloff that bidding competition should cause the price to gradually recover.  I would take the fact that the sell side is not racing to the bottom as a very good sign.  In other words, I personally think this might be a rare, great buying opportunity!  (In fact, I have now bought back over half as many coins as I've sold over the past days, heh.) Also, I would expect that if/when this coin launches on a second exchange the price would rebound almost instantly.