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Author Topic: Bitmark  (Read 622147 times)
Androidicus
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July 16, 2014, 11:49:13 AM
 #441

I don't see how it could be a stealth launch. It was announced here 3 weeks before launch.  I do think the OP need a rework though to grab some attention.  It's really uninspiring.  I'm not suggesting bullshit just for the sake of it but first impressions are important.  Maybe someone here with some marketing experience could help the dev with it. Just a suggestion.

It is quite a bit different than the average ANN page on this forum, but to me the straight up facts no nonsense approach is inspiring.

The tl;dr at the top there sums it up quite nicely I think.

I'm not against marketing or anything. I just think it's easy to come off the wrong way in the altcoin world and sometimes things can just speak for themselves.

And I can't see anyone making any sort of argument that it could be a stealth launch considering discussion has been going on here for weeks spanning multiple threads.



I thought I would right now just re-read the ANN and in doing so, answered my own question; "What made me stop and read all 10 pages (at that time) about Bitmark, whilst skimming through all the X11, Scrypt-N, X13, Hybrid PoW/PoS, Save the World, Blah Blah Blah, ANNs?"


I agree, the OP needs a bit of refreshment and I am not selling a single bitmark for less than 150k sats.

I will not be selling any BTM, period..! Certainly not until the foundation has grown some roots, branches, leaves, flowers... and, above all else, fruit!

Failure is success waiting to happen...
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Each block is stacked on top of the previous one. Adding another block to the top makes all lower blocks more difficult to remove: there is more "weight" above each block. A transaction in a block 6 blocks deep (6 confirmations) will be very difficult to remove.
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coinsolidation (OP)
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July 16, 2014, 11:57:45 AM
 #442

The project has progressed well since the OP was created, all I have done is update it since then. It would be reasonable to rewrite some sections so that they are more applicable to the current status.

Our OP must be crafted in a way that inspires people like you who all ready here, not marketed to everybody with hype and speculation.

Between the lines of these posts I see a message coming through: many want to support the project and mine to keep some bitmarks, but often people have running costs and unless they are supported in their running costs they cannot support bitmark.

Something could be crafted so those with money could support those with hashing power, and the proceeds split between them. Maybe this feels centralized and is not so open to the wider community, or maybe it is fair.

Or perhaps exchanges of some kind are a necessary part of the organic growth.

A fair balance must be struck while we earn our value.

Is this the area which we need to address first as a community? I feel it is becoming important.

Bitmark (reputation+money) : Bitmark v0.9.4 (release)
Chronikka
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July 16, 2014, 12:11:22 PM
 #443

The project has progressed well since the OP was created, all I have done is update it since then. It would be reasonable to rewrite some sections so that they are more applicable to the current status.

Our OP must be crafted in a way that inspires people like you who all ready here, not marketed to everybody with hype and speculation.

Between the lines of these posts I see a message coming through: many want to support the project and mine to keep some bitmarks, but often people have running costs and unless they are supported in their running costs they cannot support bitmark.

Something could be crafted so those with money could support those with hashing power, and the proceeds split between them. Maybe this feels centralized and is not so open to the wider community, or maybe it is fair.

Or perhaps exchanges of some kind are a necessary part of the organic growth.

A fair balance must be struck while we earn our value.

Is this the area which we need to address first as a community? I feel it is becoming important.


I think many supporters want instant gratification, especially the miners. Its difficult to mine something where you have no idea what its value is, especially when there are costs.

Exchanges give people the satisfaction that mining is "profitable" or not and they can make the decision to mine or support the community in other ways. With so many alt coins out there and new ones released every day its hard to keep people's attention. Seeing Bitmark on an exchange or other high trafficked place can keep people interested.

Setting up an exchange could have negative consequences as miners could choose to dump coins, but ultimately I think it creates significant exposure for the community. We don't need fancy graphics to get people here, we need accessibility and exposure.

"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination"  -Albert Einstein
Androidicus
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July 16, 2014, 12:17:35 PM
 #444

The project has progressed well since the OP was created, all I have done is update it since then. It would be reasonable to rewrite some sections so that they are more applicable to the current status.

Our OP must be crafted in a way that inspires people like you who all ready here, not marketed to everybody with hype and speculation.

Between the lines of these posts I see a message coming through: many want to support the project and mine to keep some bitmarks, but often people have running costs and unless they are supported in their running costs they cannot support bitmark.

Something could be crafted so those with money could support those with hashing power, and the proceeds split between them. Maybe this feels centralized and is not so open to the wider community, or maybe it is fair.

Or perhaps exchanges of some kind are a necessary part of the organic growth.

A fair balance must be struck while we earn our value.

Is this the area which we need to address first as a community? I feel it is becoming important.


consolidation - Bitmark is caught between polarised mindsets; short term profit - long term reward. I am stating the obvious, but the first may be necessary to support the second - I am not entirely certain. Perhaps there is a natural and unavoidable evolution from one to the other?

Quote
Our OP must be crafted in a way that inspires people like you who all ready here, not marketed to everybody with hype and speculation.

Absolutely - and when bitmark.co is ready, hopefully it will strike that exact chord.

Of course people have running costs - but it is their call how they control and direct these in proportion to their mining efforts and 'perceived' value. I have certainly mined coins that I was 100% convinced would do well only to be left with a bag of useless 'dust'... my call.

EDIT: Just to add - I have considerable fiat investment that absolutely needs to ROI - but I split my mining between daily BTC returns and long-term goals over short-term profit.

You cannot hold the hands of others.


Failure is success waiting to happen...
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July 16, 2014, 12:23:54 PM
 #445

We could do spreadsheet trading first if people really want to buy and sell their BTM.
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July 16, 2014, 12:24:31 PM
 #446

how long did it take for bitcoin to make an exchange ?

we are three days into mining. no problem.

long term covering of machine costs is the issue at stake from my perspective, not short term profit.

am working one machine in bitmark as the other machines that are running multipool are keeping the energy cost covered. ideally mining bitmark with all machines, but not yet feasible. this will come in time as the coin develops or other options are explored, similar as discussed in the IPM document

 
powersup
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July 16, 2014, 12:27:46 PM
 #447

I do agree with what everyone is saying, however the reality is the launch was very discreet compared to other coins.  Fudders and trolls will use whatever leverage they can find to bring a coin down.

I'm sure we have all seen good coins destroyed by fudders and trolls, and I dont want to see that happen to BM.

I guess what i'm really trying to say is the trolls and fudders will flock to this threat once BM gains attention, and we need to be ready for whatever they throw at us.
coinsolidation (OP)
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July 16, 2014, 12:29:17 PM
 #448

I agree, it is fair and inclusive. We do not want to become a closed community supporting each other, it is more productive, beneficial and enjoyable to speak with others about Bitmark and see what they think.

Let us agree that exchanges are needed, our value will be earned and any price tag will reflect that. Our focus is on earning value and considering our steps.

We should work out which exchanges are the most beneficial to us, before we are added to one without our knowledge.

We do not want to see "exchange hacked, bitmark was the target", so somebody secure is needed, perhaps who has been hacked previously and been through the process of making things secure.
It must also be an exchange that gives currencies a fair chance, but one that recognises when they haven't worked out and prune their list of supported currencies regularly.
Which are the fairest or most reasonable?

These questions are worth considering as we will face them soon whatever we do.

As Este Nuno suggests we could do spreadsheet trading at any time.

I do not feel anybody really wants to sell their BTM, but that some feel they need to sell a portion from time to time in order to keep supporting the project and creating more.

Unsavoury people will come to this thread, some will be reasonable and just concerned, Chronikka started out this way and now is offering valuable help. As a community we can keep things in line.

Bitmark (reputation+money) : Bitmark v0.9.4 (release)
iaminitnow06
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July 16, 2014, 12:45:15 PM
 #449


We do not want to see "exchange hacked, bitmark was the target", so somebody secure is needed, perhaps who has been hacked previously and been through the process of making things secure.
It must also be an exchange that gives currencies a fair chance, but one that recognises when they haven't worked out and prune their list of supported currencies regularly.
Which are the fairest or most reasonable?

These questions are worth considering as we will face them soon whatever we do.


Bittrex and Cryptsy are up to the standard in my experience. Maybe we can fix a price for bitmark at the start, because anything less than 150k sats as of now will hit mining costs as I am currently mining it at a rate very slightly lower than this. I am sure other miners would agree with me about the cost.
EDIT: I also like the idea of postponing the exhange idea, maybe when the difficulty is a bit high, so that we don't get the dumping situation. But again we could let the market decide the price. In the end I want to hold Bitmark longterm and support the project.

NEM(NEW ECONOMY MOVEMENT) - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=654845.0 | http://forum.nemcoin.com/ | http://altnemo.com/
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Este Nuno
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July 16, 2014, 12:49:23 PM
 #450

I use Poloniex and I find it to be pretty good.

But they have people with accounts vote on which coins they wish to see. So it might take a while to get to the top of the list. It's a non-bitcoin voting system though. You don't have to send any money, you just vote for which coins you like.
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July 16, 2014, 12:50:16 PM
 #451

doh! missed the launch.

got some blizzards pointed at the pool. coin has a lot of promise
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July 16, 2014, 12:53:31 PM
 #452

I use Poloniex and I find it to be pretty good.

But they have people with accounts vote on which coins they wish to see. So it might take a while to get to the top of the list. It's a non-bitcoin voting system though. You don't have to send any money, you just vote for which coins you like.
Ah I forgot polo too Wink Yes voting is comparatively easy and just requires a trading history.

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Len
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July 16, 2014, 12:54:59 PM
 #453


We do not want to see "exchange hacked, bitmark was the target", so somebody secure is needed, perhaps who has been hacked previously and been through the process of making things secure.
It must also be an exchange that gives currencies a fair chance, but one that recognises when they haven't worked out and prune their list of supported currencies regularly.
Which are the fairest or most reasonable?

These questions are worth considering as we will face them soon whatever we do.


Bittrex and Cryptsy are up to the standard in my experience. Maybe we can fix a price for bitmark at the start, because anything less than 150k sats as of now will hit mining costs as I am currently mining it at a rate very slightly lower than this. I am sure other miners would agree with me about the cost.

You can't just fix a price, bittrex, polo and cryptsy like all other exchanges are free markets and it will sell for whatever people want to pay for them.  Not only is it impossible to force people to buy for a certain price but I think that is one of the main things coinsolidation is trying to achieve, in that Bitmark started off valueless and is earning its valuation through continued development
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July 16, 2014, 12:55:36 PM
 #454

how long did it take for bitcoin to make an exchange ?

we are three days into mining. no problem.

Seriously. We talked for weeks about letting things grow organically, and not push to get on an exchange prematurely. Now, we're three days in, suddenly people have BTM in their wallet, and they immediately want to sell it. Sell it for what? I don't know. BTM doesn't have any value right now. Literally none, because right now it's just a three-day old coin with no merchants or special features.

I say the dev should leave exchanges to the community. Instead of working on working on maximizing short-term dumper profits, he should be working on the coin. If the community wants the coin on an exchange, we would be responsible for that part. Petition/vote/whatever to get BTM on an exchange. That's the only way to prove that a coin has real value anyway: A mass of people wanting to buy/sell it.

Premature exchange listing is how we get shitcoins with 20sat value, and .023BTC volume. Is that the coin we want to be?

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Androidicus
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July 16, 2014, 12:58:21 PM
 #455

how long did it take for bitcoin to make an exchange ?
we are three days into mining. no problem.
long term covering of machine costs is the issue at stake from my perspective, not short term profit.
am working one machine in bitmark as the other machines that are running multipool are keeping the energy cost covered. ideally mining bitmark with all machines, but not yet feasible. this will come in time as the coin develops or other options are explored, similar as discussed in the IPM document

My sentiments entirely

I do agree with what everyone is saying, however the reality is the launch was very discreet compared to other coins.  Fudders and trolls will use whatever leverage they can find to bring a coin down.
I'm sure we have all seen good coins destroyed by fudders and trolls, and I dont want to see that happen to BM.
I guess what i'm really trying to say is the trolls and fudders will flock to this threat once BM gains attention, and we need to be ready for whatever they throw at us.

Makes a sad but all too accurate a point - the trollarians will come and the FUD

I'm certain that the community will rise above them...

We do not want to see "exchange hacked, bitmark was the target", so somebody secure is needed, perhaps who has been hacked previously and been through the process of making things secure.
It must also be an exchange that gives currencies a fair chance, but one that recognises when they haven't worked out and prune their list of supported currencies regularly.
Which are the fairest or most reasonable?
These questions are worth considering as we will face them soon whatever we do.
Bittrex and Cryptsy are up to the standard in my experience. Maybe we can fix a price for bitmark at the start, because anything less than 150k sats as of now will hit mining costs as I am currently mining it at a rate very slightly lower than this. I am sure other miners would agree with me about the cost.
EDIT: I also like the idea of postponing the exhange idea, maybe when the difficulty is a bit high, so that we don't get the dumping situation. But again we could let the market decide the price. In the end I want to hold Bitmark longterm and support the project.

In my ignorance, how does the price get 'fixed'? I think your edit says it all iaminitnow06 - the way forward imho



Failure is success waiting to happen...
iaminitnow06
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July 16, 2014, 12:59:41 PM
 #456


You can't just fix a price, bittrex, polo and cryptsy like all other exchanges are free markets and it will sell for whatever people want to pay for them.  Not only is it impossible to force people to buy for a certain price but I think that is one of the main things coinsolidation is trying to achieve, in that Bitmark started off valueless and is earning its valuation through continued development
I agree with you. I was just stating my situation. Maybe we shouldn't talk about an exchange atm. Only time will tell the true value of Bitmark.

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cryptozim
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July 16, 2014, 01:02:11 PM
 #457

In my ignorance, how does the price get 'fixed'? I think your edit says it all iaminitnow06 - the way forward imho

The only way to fix a price is to set up a buy wall. But, the higher the trade volume, the more BTC it takes to maintain that wall.

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Androidicus
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July 16, 2014, 01:03:46 PM
 #458

how long did it take for bitcoin to make an exchange ?

we are three days into mining. no problem.

Seriously. We talked for weeks about letting things grow organically, and not push to get on an exchange prematurely. Now, we're three days in, suddenly people have BTM in their wallet, and they immediately want to sell it. Sell it for what? I don't know. BTM doesn't have any value right now. Literally none, because right now it's just a three-day old coin with no merchants or special features.

I say the dev should leave exchanges to the community. Instead of working on working on maximizing short-term dumper profits, he should be working on the coin. If the community wants the coin on an exchange, we would be responsible for that part. Petition/vote/whatever to get BTM on an exchange. That's the only way to prove that a coin has real value anyway: A mass of people wanting to buy/sell it.

Premature exchange listing is how we get shitcoins with 20sat value, and .023BTC volume. Is that the coin we want to be?

+10!

EDIT: cryptozim - I think that there may have been a hint of kind sarcasm in my question!

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cryptozim
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July 16, 2014, 01:04:12 PM
 #459

I do agree with what everyone is saying, however the reality is the launch was very discreet compared to other coins.  Fudders and trolls will use whatever leverage they can find to bring a coin down.
I'm sure we have all seen good coins destroyed by fudders and trolls, and I dont want to see that happen to BM.
I guess what i'm really trying to say is the trolls and fudders will flock to this threat once BM gains attention, and we need to be ready for whatever they throw at us.

Makes a sad but all too accurate a point - the trollarians will come and the FUD

I'm certain that the community will rise above them...

There will always be trolls and FUD. Nothing you can do about that. Arguing with them doesn't help that much, but we can always point them to the 5 different threads coinsolidation had plastered all around Bitcointalk in relation to this project.

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July 16, 2014, 01:07:38 PM
 #460

The project has progressed well since the OP was created, all I have done is update it since then. It would be reasonable to rewrite some sections so that they are more applicable to the current status.

Our OP must be crafted in a way that inspires people like you who all ready here, not marketed to everybody with hype and speculation.

Between the lines of these posts I see a message coming through: many want to support the project and mine to keep some bitmarks, but often people have running costs and unless they are supported in their running costs they cannot support bitmark.

Something could be crafted so those with money could support those with hashing power, and the proceeds split between them. Maybe this feels centralized and is not so open to the wider community, or maybe it is fair.

Or perhaps exchanges of some kind are a necessary part of the organic growth.

A fair balance must be struck while we earn our value.

Is this the area which we need to address first as a community? I feel it is becoming important.


In the beginning of the crypto currency world, there existed not exchanges as we see them today.  To quote from Andreas Antonopoulos among the best way to exchange is meetups.  And I do agree in earnest.   

The unfortunate thing about exchanges as we see them currently is that 99 percent of the motivation in using them is purely speculation for the means of capturing their fiat price value in return.  While speculation is not a problem in of itself, for a so called or would be currency , speculation is a significant problem and tends to give a false expression of the "value" as a currency. Hence the "price" instability that we see at large in the whole of the cryptocurrency space. I use the term currency loosely here, for they are not currency as of yet.  Merely speculation tokens. 

I would agree to have BTM on an exchange earlier(under 2 years after genius block) if it was the case that lets say, I was going on vacation, say to Greece, and a large section of the city in which I visited has embraced BTM as a medium of exchange and/or unit of account.  Let us suppose that the community in which this were true, merchants wisely gave a purchasing discount for using BTM over local standard fiat currency of their lands.  Then an exchange(in this example) may have a very important function in relation to the facilitation of the "conversion" of local currency in the sought after currency which would be BTM.  In this example of course the exchange would not have been used as a price speculation platform, on the contrary.

I will stand behind my position against BTM, being place on an exchange at this time.  The temptation to resist the emotional aspect of currency speculation will overshadow any early attempts to earn value by using exchanges as a mean to this end, even in the attempt to limit this by using so called small exchanges would be detrimental for the very same reason given previously.

There are and most likly will always be many more unsophisticated emotionally driven people using exchanges that do not understand or even know the difference between value and price.  Value and price are not always reflected in harmony.   

It is my most sincere effort in seeing that this projects early initiative of becoming a daily use currency be adhere to.  I hope that my previous analysis statements against early adoption usage of exchanges give credence to this fact.

Jay
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