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Author Topic: Bitmark  (Read 600494 times)
deepcoreotc
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July 16, 2014, 01:17:28 PM
 #461

Until this exchange situation is settled, I will be pulling my supporting hashing power. I do hope that this situation is addressed for the last time and I may return to supporting this project in earnest.

Jay

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Este Nuno
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July 16, 2014, 01:20:14 PM
 #462

In the long run it's not going to matter whether some exchange lists Bitmark or not. Coinsolidation is committed to developing Bitmark long term at this point so it shouldn't have any effect on what happens over the next year at least.

I'm pretty ambivalent about the whole exchange situation. On one hand we want to stick to the general mantra of 'no hype, let the project speak for itself' and let things happen naturally. On the other hand I can sympathise with people who want to offset some of their mining costs.

The important thing to to keep in mind is that we're all thinking long term here. So whatever happens now in the short term really should have any lasting effect on Bitmark.
cryptozim
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July 16, 2014, 01:22:58 PM
 #463

how long did it take for bitcoin to make an exchange ?
we are three days into mining. no problem.
EDIT: cryptozim - I think that there may have been a hint of kind sarcasm in my question!

I missed the sarcasm. I actually thought it was a good question. With 1000+ altcoins trying to go "to tha mooon" on launch day, I like the community stance to follow Satoshi's lead on the development of Bitmark. And while I wasn't around in 2009, I'm pretty sure the answer to your question is not 3 days.

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Chronikka
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July 16, 2014, 01:24:31 PM
 #464

I think too much emphasis has been put on linking the price of Bitmark to it being listed on an exchange. The price really doesn't matter this early. It will reflect how people value the coin. So lets make Bitmark have true value and the price on any exchange will reflect that.

The point i was making earlier about exchanges, is that they are a necessary component of a healthy crypto community. People need the ability to move in and out of bitmark with ease. Also, exchanges provide a lot of exposure for a coin. Bitmark is still very young and most people don't have a clue what it is. Seeing it on an exchange they trade at on a regular basis will pique the interest of a lot of people.

"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination"  -Albert Einstein
Androidicus
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July 16, 2014, 01:34:26 PM
 #465

how long did it take for bitcoin to make an exchange ?
we are three days into mining. no problem.
EDIT: cryptozim - I think that there may have been a hint of kind sarcasm in my question!

I missed the sarcasm. I actually thought it was a good question. With 1000+ altcoins trying to go "to tha mooon" on launch day, I like the community stance to follow Satoshi's lead on the development of Bitmark. And while I wasn't around in 2009, I'm pretty sure the answer to your question is not 3 days.

Ah - to avoid any confusion - my sarcasm was in my question: 'In my ignorance - How do you fix the price?'!
tdokta's point about BTC > Exchange was spot on - we're all on the same page with that one... certainly NOT 3 days!

Oh that phrase - "to da moon" Aghhhhh!

 Grin

Failure is success waiting to happen...
Androidicus
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July 16, 2014, 01:40:32 PM
 #466

In the long run it's not going to matter whether some exchange lists Bitmark or not. Coinsolidation is committed to developing Bitmark long term at this point so it shouldn't have any effect on what happens over the next year at least.

I'm pretty ambivalent about the whole exchange situation. On one hand we want to stick to the general mantra of 'no hype, let the project speak for itself' and let things happen naturally. On the other hand I can sympathise with people who want to offset some of their mining costs.

The important thing to to keep in mind is that we're all thinking long term here. So whatever happens now in the short term really should have any lasting effect on Bitmark.

Ultimately Este, your point crystalises everything said so far - BTM will go on an exchange in 10, 100, 200 days whatever - it is the commitment of consolidation and the community to BTM's long term goals that really matter.

 

Failure is success waiting to happen...
cryptozim
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July 16, 2014, 01:42:48 PM
 #467

how long did it take for bitcoin to make an exchange ?
we are three days into mining. no problem.
EDIT: cryptozim - I think that there may have been a hint of kind sarcasm in my question!

I missed the sarcasm. I actually thought it was a good question. With 1000+ altcoins trying to go "to tha mooon" on launch day, I like the community stance to follow Satoshi's lead on the development of Bitmark. And while I wasn't around in 2009, I'm pretty sure the answer to your question is not 3 days.

Ah - to avoid any confusion - my sarcasm was in my question: 'In my ignorance - How do you fix the price?'!
tdokta's point about BTC > Exchange was spot on - we're all on the same page with that one... certainly NOT 3 days!

Oh that phrase - "to da moon" Aghhhhh!

 Grin

Ugh. I have to start looking at people's names when I reply.

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Chronikka
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July 16, 2014, 01:53:02 PM
 #468

How do you guys expect new people to get involved with bitmark if they can't even get coins? Not everybody is a miner. I had to rent my hash power because I don't have scrypt hardware and I know I'm not the only one. So how do people like me who are interested in bitmark acquire coin without an exchange?

This is why exchanges are important, The actual price is irrelevant. People need a place to get Bitmark, and yes that means they need a place to sell it too.

Comparing us to bitcoin in the early stages is like apple to oranges. Bitcoin wasn't listed on any exchange because they didn't exist yet! There are dozens of them now.

"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination"  -Albert Einstein
deepcoreotc
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July 16, 2014, 02:00:00 PM
 #469

How do you guys expect new people to get involved with bitmark if they can't even get coins? Not everybody is a miner. I had to rent my hash power because I don't have scrypt hardware and I know I'm not the only one. So how do people like me who are interested in bitmark acquire coin without an exchange?

This is why exchanges are important, The actual price is irrelevant. People need a place to get Bitmark, and yes that means they need a place to sell it too.

Comparing us to bitcoin in the early stages is like apple to oranges. Bitcoin wasn't listed on any exchange because they didn't exist yet! There are dozens of them now.

the same way people did in the beginning with bitcoin, did you not read my post. here is the link.  
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=660544.msg7874858#msg7874858

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Chronikka
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July 16, 2014, 02:08:08 PM
 #470

How do you guys expect new people to get involved with bitmark if they can't even get coins? Not everybody is a miner. I had to rent my hash power because I don't have scrypt hardware and I know I'm not the only one. So how do people like me who are interested in bitmark acquire coin without an exchange?

This is why exchanges are important, The actual price is irrelevant. People need a place to get Bitmark, and yes that means they need a place to sell it too.

Comparing us to bitcoin in the early stages is like apple to oranges. Bitcoin wasn't listed on any exchange because they didn't exist yet! There are dozens of them now.

the same way people did in the beginning with bitcoin, did you not read my post. here is the link.   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=660544.msg7874858#msg7874858

I read it and addressed it clearly. We are not Bitcoin. Comparing us to bitcoin in its infancy is naive.

Bitcoin was a revolution and the first real solution for a decentralized p2p system. People were jumping to be a part of it. Not the case here. Bitmark is one of many coins in an already established crypto field. Exposure is important to help seperate us from other alt coins. Exposure also brings more people in who have something to contribute. Otherwise people ignore Bitmark and it falls by the wayside.

Bitmark will end up on an exchange one way or another. The sooner it happens the easier people can get involved.

"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination"  -Albert Einstein
cryptozim
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July 16, 2014, 02:16:32 PM
 #471

Bitmark will end up on an exchange one way or another. The sooner it happens the easier people can get involved.

If you want to petition the exchanges and gather votes to get BTM listed, no one is stopping you. If enough of the community wants the same thing, then it will get listed.

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Androidicus
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July 16, 2014, 02:28:40 PM
 #472

How do you guys expect new people to get involved with bitmark if they can't even get coins? Not everybody is a miner. I had to rent my hash power because I don't have scrypt hardware and I know I'm not the only one. So how do people like me who are interested in bitmark acquire coin without an exchange?

This is why exchanges are important, The actual price is irrelevant. People need a place to get Bitmark, and yes that means they need a place to sell it too.

Comparing us to bitcoin in the early stages is like apple to oranges. Bitcoin wasn't listed on any exchange because they didn't exist yet! There are dozens of them now.

the same way people did in the beginning with bitcoin, did you not read my post. here is the link.   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=660544.msg7874858#msg7874858

I read it and addressed it clearly. We are not Bitcoin. Comparing us to bitcoin in its infancy is naive.

Bitcoin was a revolution and the first real solution for a decentralized p2p system. People were jumping to be a part of it. Not the case here. Bitmark is one of many coins in an already established crypto field. Exposure is important to help seperate us from other alt coins. Exposure also brings more people in who have something to contribute. Otherwise people ignore Bitmark and it falls by the wayside.

Bitmark will end up on an exchange one way or another. The sooner it happens the easier people can get involved.

Valid points but

a) what is the average time from any coin launch to an exchange?
b) during the period in a) above, how do people normally 'get involved'?
c) early adoption is always by mining?
d) the power costs together with the loss of exchangeable coin mining = the current perceived 'value' of BTM (short or long term) to miners
e) buying hashing power to mine is surely no different to buying a coin on an exchange - the 'price' of the mined coins being set by cost of mining against the coin rewards?

Of course, e) is different but in the period between launch and first exchange listing, is this not the only way?

Ultimately, no one controls the 'community' - they will either vote at exchanges for the coin to be added or they won't...

Failure is success waiting to happen...
deepcoreotc
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July 16, 2014, 02:29:26 PM
 #473

Bitmark will end up on an exchange one way or another. The sooner it happens the easier people can get involved.

If you want to petition the exchanges and gather votes to get BTM listed, no one is stopping you. If enough of the community wants the same thing, then it will get listed.

This is true, and if this does happen, then BTM in the absolute offers nothing different then the already 500 plus alt coins that exist and this project will be treated as such.

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July 16, 2014, 02:59:09 PM
 #474

How do you guys expect new people to get involved with bitmark if they can't even get coins? Not everybody is a miner. I had to rent my hash power because I don't have scrypt hardware and I know I'm not the only one. So how do people like me who are interested in bitmark acquire coin without an exchange?

This is why exchanges are important, The actual price is irrelevant. People need a place to get Bitmark, and yes that means they need a place to sell it too.

Comparing us to bitcoin in the early stages is like apple to oranges. Bitcoin wasn't listed on any exchange because they didn't exist yet! There are dozens of them now.

the same way people did in the beginning with bitcoin, did you not read my post. here is the link.   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=660544.msg7874858#msg7874858

I read it and addressed it clearly. We are not Bitcoin. Comparing us to bitcoin in its infancy is naive.

Bitcoin was a revolution and the first real solution for a decentralized p2p system. People were jumping to be a part of it. Not the case here. Bitmark is one of many coins in an already established crypto field. Exposure is important to help seperate us from other alt coins. Exposure also brings more people in who have something to contribute. Otherwise people ignore Bitmark and it falls by the wayside.

Bitmark will end up on an exchange one way or another. The sooner it happens the easier people can get involved.

Valid points but

a) what is the average time from any coin launch to an exchange?
b) during the period in a) above, how do people normally 'get involved'?
c) early adoption is always by mining?
d) the power costs together with the loss of exchangeable coin mining = the current perceived 'value' of BTM (short or long term) to miners
e) buying hashing power to mine is surely no different to buying a coin on an exchange - the 'price' of the mined coins being set by cost of mining against the coin rewards?

Of course, e) is different but in the period between launch and first exchange listing, is this not the only way?

Ultimately, no one controls the 'community' - they will either vote at exchanges for the coin to be added or they won't...


I would say average time to an exchange does not matter too much, as long as it happens. Many coins are listed at launch. Some at a later date. The way people get involved with bitmark before an exchange is the same way they get involved after an exchange. They see the coin and they like or they don't. The exchange just makes the coin more visible and simplifies the process of acquiring them.

Mining is all well and good but its inferior to straight up buying coins on an exchange. No running costs, down time, or hardware price drops. If i was going to mine I would rather contribute to the IPM instead of buying scrypt hardware.

This has turned into a situation where everybody thinks I'm pushing hard for an exchange. Its not really that important as of today, day 4 of Bitmark. But if we expect the community to grow it has to happen eventually. I think listing the coin on an exchange is free publicity, something that bitmark could use.

"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination"  -Albert Einstein
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July 16, 2014, 03:00:35 PM
 #475

Bitmark will end up on an exchange one way or another. The sooner it happens the easier people can get involved.

If you want to petition the exchanges and gather votes to get BTM listed, no one is stopping you. If enough of the community wants the same thing, then it will get listed.

This is true, and if this does happen, then BTM in the absolute offers nothing different then the already 500 plus alt coins that exist and this project will be treated as such.

It shouldn't really matter what happens. The value is supposed to be earned over time by adding useful features and creating a stable code base that is easy to use.

Right now what we have is an up to date version of Bitcoin which uses scrypt. That alone is actually better than all the other coins using the very outdated versions of Bitcoin that Litecoin forked from a long time ago. However, no one is deluding themselves into thinking that simply having the updated Bitcoin core is enough to compete in the modern cryptocurrency marketplace. We're just using this as a solid base to start from. The value will be earned when we can determine what features are necessary to add to result in a useful currency for daily use. We have a general idea right now to start out by making it easy for shop owners such as yourself to accept Bitmark and to that end coinsolidation is going to be working on an improved API at some point soon.

To me, it doesn't matter one way or the other whether it gets listed on an exchange. It's not going to change anything. There is no way we can stop people from using a public currency anyway. The focus is long term and nothing that happens now is going to change that.

The project is bigger than whether it gets listed on exchange x or exchange y. If it was selling for 1 satoshi or a million satoshi it still wouldn't change anything about the project. This is just a distraction from what we all really want to see: progress on Bitmark.
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July 16, 2014, 03:11:43 PM
 #476


The project is bigger than whether it gets listed on exchange x or exchange y. If it was selling for 1 satoshi or a million satoshi it still wouldn't change anything about the project. This is just a distraction from what we all really want to see: progress on Bitmark.

This I would agree with. I think people are getting it mixed up that I care about the price of bitmark becuase I want it on an exchange.

My point has always been that bitmark benefits from an exchange simply based on the exposure that creates. Nobody knows about bitmark right now, but an exchange could change that. The price does not matter. We, the community, will set the price based on what the perceived value of the coin is. Like i said, an exchange is just free publicity.

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July 16, 2014, 03:17:15 PM
 #477

This has turned into a situation where everybody thinks I'm pushing hard for an exchange. Its not really that important as of today, day 4 of Bitmark. But if we expect the community to grow it has to happen eventually.

I can actually get behind this statement. I definitely want to see it on an exchange at some point. I'm just not in a hurry for it, and there are definitely people pushing hard to get it onto an exchange so they can dump their minings (which would consequently set a price, which is usually driven further down by more miners). I've been pushing hard against an exchange just to counter-balance their push for the exchange.

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July 16, 2014, 03:20:18 PM
 #478


8<-----SNIPPED-----------

Valid points but

a) what is the average time from any coin launch to an exchange?
b) during the period in a) above, how do people normally 'get involved'?
c) early adoption is always by mining?
d) the power costs together with the loss of exchangeable coin mining = the current perceived 'value' of BTM (short or long term) to miners
e) buying hashing power to mine is surely no different to buying a coin on an exchange - the 'price' of the mined coins being set by cost of mining against the coin rewards?

Of course, e) is different but in the period between launch and first exchange listing, is this not the only way?

Ultimately, no one controls the 'community' - they will either vote at exchanges for the coin to be added or they won't...


I would say average time to an exchange does not matter too much, as long as it happens. Many coins are listed at launch. Some at a later date. The way people get involved with bitmark before an exchange is the same way they get involved after an exchange. They see the coin and they like or they don't. The exchange just makes the coin more visible and simplifies the process of acquiring them.

Mining is all well and good but its inferior to straight up buying coins on an exchange. No running costs, down time, or hardware price drops. If i was going to mine I would rather contribute to the IPM instead of buying scrypt hardware.

This has turned into a situation where everybody thinks I'm pushing hard for an exchange. Its not really that important as of today, day 4 of Bitmark. But if we expect the community to grow it has to happen eventually. I think listing the coin on an exchange is free publicity, something that bitmark could use.

I see the longer term implications of your views and do not disagree - and you are right; day 4 is rather early to be concerned about exchanges!

Your point regarding the IPM is right - I should have mentioned that and my item e) was more about hiring than buying scrypt hashing capability - so the IPM when available would be a good route in the absence of exchange or hardware.


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July 16, 2014, 03:23:11 PM
 #479

Bitmark will end up on an exchange one way or another. The sooner it happens the easier people can get involved.

If you want to petition the exchanges and gather votes to get BTM listed, no one is stopping you. If enough of the community wants the same thing, then it will get listed.

This is true, and if this does happen, then BTM in the absolute offers nothing different then the already 500 plus alt coins that exist and this project will be treated as such.

It shouldn't really matter what happens. The value is supposed to be earned over time by adding useful features and creating a stable code base that is easy to use.

Right now what we have is an up to date version of Bitcoin which uses scrypt. That alone is actually better than all the other coins using the very outdated versions of Bitcoin that Litecoin forked from a long time ago. However, no one is deluding themselves into thinking that simply having the updated Bitcoin core is enough to compete in the modern cryptocurrency marketplace. We're just using this as a solid base to start from. The value will be earned when we can determine what features are necessary to add to result in a useful currency for daily use. We have a general idea right now to start out by making it easy for shop owners such as yourself to accept Bitmark and to that end coinsolidation is going to be working on an improved API at some point soon.

To me, it doesn't matter one way or the other whether it gets listed on an exchange. It's not going to change anything. There is no way we can stop people from using a public currency anyway. The focus is long term and nothing that happens now is going to change that.

The project is bigger than whether it gets listed on exchange x or exchange y. If it was selling for 1 satoshi or a million satoshi it still wouldn't change anything about the project. This is just a distraction from what we all really want to see: progress on Bitmark.

the term/word progress is a relative and open term.  My question would be, progress in which direction?  Progress in the initial fundamental  goals of the project, or the recent shift in perceptive attitude towards getting listed on an exchange early?   These 2 progressive directions in my opinion are in contradiction to one another. Stating this again in a different way, we can not have both progressive directions this early on at the same time. My rationale to this point is given here  
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=660544.msg7874858#msg7874858

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July 16, 2014, 04:20:21 PM
 #480

We must be tolerant of each other and balance our needs.

Most are in agreement that they are in no rush to list Bitmark on an exchange, and if it is listed they are not particularly interested in selling.

Most were also in agreement that there was no rush to have a mining pool yet we had one on launch and most of you used it.

It is wise to recognise that when Bitcoin launched there were no exchanges and no pools, and there was little demand, cryptographic currency was new. Bitmark does not belong to that time, it belongs to this time.

With that in mind, we can establish that exchanges exist, and that we will find ourselves on an exchange whether we like it or not, people will speculate, some will buy and some will sell BTM.

Some will see these as negative things, but they are to be expected and cannot be stopped.

We can offset this with the fact that exchanges make Bitmark more visible and simplify the process of acquiring it. It will also encourage more participation from a larger community.

Let us also consider that if Bitmark is not seen as being actively engaging the outward community, they will presume a group of people have slowly pre-mined a large amount of Bitmarks before exposing it properly. That would damage our efforts, and we need to be fair to those who are not with us yet.

I mentioned earlier that people are mining with their own hardware and worry about covering their costs, and others are hiring mining rigs because there is no exchange. The two parties could help each other by investors helping to cover the costs of mining then splitting the BTM between them fairly.

If you are already mining in some way then you must accept that you are speculating and hope to acquire some Bitmarks with the expectation their value will rise, you must be inclusive to others who wish to do the same, that is fair.

Mining pools will join, exchanges will join, people with short and long term interests will join.

Let us together identify which are fair reasonable pools and exchanges, for they will be part of our public face.

The sooner we do this, the sooner we can turn our conversations back to our work.

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